Thanks for that confirmation, I thought using LHM+ would be fine.
Cheers, Ken
Cheers, Ken
Working on the SM
- Thread starter Ken W
- Start date
Hi Shane,
Yes I have joined the Yahoo SM Group and downloaded most of the contents in the Files section.
Wikipedia says the original control fluid used for the Directional Control of the headlights was Glycerine. There was some fluid left in the control I repaired which is a bright bluey green colour as in the pic below. I have seen an article in an SM Club de France magazine that says to use a glycol water mix as a replacement and also Citrothello using LHM. I filled mine with LHM+ and I must say that the return speed under spring force seems a little sluggish. Maybe next time I will use the glycol mixture. Has anyone found any information on the coefficient of thermal expansion of the fluid used and how the compensation tubes filled with those little white beads works?
Anyway headlights are all installed now. I managed to control the flare on the low beam lights by rotating the bulbs by about 20 degrees.
Cheers, Ken
Yes I have joined the Yahoo SM Group and downloaded most of the contents in the Files section.
Wikipedia says the original control fluid used for the Directional Control of the headlights was Glycerine. There was some fluid left in the control I repaired which is a bright bluey green colour as in the pic below. I have seen an article in an SM Club de France magazine that says to use a glycol water mix as a replacement and also Citrothello using LHM. I filled mine with LHM+ and I must say that the return speed under spring force seems a little sluggish. Maybe next time I will use the glycol mixture. Has anyone found any information on the coefficient of thermal expansion of the fluid used and how the compensation tubes filled with those little white beads works?
Anyway headlights are all installed now. I managed to control the flare on the low beam lights by rotating the bulbs by about 20 degrees.
Cheers, Ken
Attachments
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Problems Selecting Reverse Gear in the SM manual gearbox
Since buying the car, I have had trouble selecting reverse gear reliably. So with this current round of work, I decided to fit a new lateral gate control cable to reduce some of the play in the gear change. This has worked quite well and I appear to be able to set up the cable so I can feel both extremes of the gear change gate in the gearbox without hitting either extremity of the sideways gate in the car.
When I finally got the engine restarted (after finding the fuel rail was full of air on the second day of trying), I drove the car out of the shed and then could not select reverse at all. After some de-adjustment, I managed to get it in once so I backed it back into the shed but I have been unable to select it again despite repeated attempts today. I have come to the conclusion that the reverse gear selector fork must be sliding on the selector rod. Any other ideas?
The gearbox is a DS/SM 5 forward speed box that has a top cover that goes over where the selector rods are located. Do anyone have a picture of what the inside of the gearbox looks like with this cover removed? What I would like to know is the following:
1. Can I access the bolts that hold the reverse selector fork in position if this cover is removed?
2. It looks like I can take this cover off with the gearbox in situ if I remove the accessory tray that holds the aircon compressor hydraulic pump and alternator, an air cleaner and the lay shaft. Is this feasible?
The only other problem this gearbox seems to have is a weak second gear synchromesh which I can live with for the moment.
Cheers, Ken
Since buying the car, I have had trouble selecting reverse gear reliably. So with this current round of work, I decided to fit a new lateral gate control cable to reduce some of the play in the gear change. This has worked quite well and I appear to be able to set up the cable so I can feel both extremes of the gear change gate in the gearbox without hitting either extremity of the sideways gate in the car.
When I finally got the engine restarted (after finding the fuel rail was full of air on the second day of trying), I drove the car out of the shed and then could not select reverse at all. After some de-adjustment, I managed to get it in once so I backed it back into the shed but I have been unable to select it again despite repeated attempts today. I have come to the conclusion that the reverse gear selector fork must be sliding on the selector rod. Any other ideas?
The gearbox is a DS/SM 5 forward speed box that has a top cover that goes over where the selector rods are located. Do anyone have a picture of what the inside of the gearbox looks like with this cover removed? What I would like to know is the following:
1. Can I access the bolts that hold the reverse selector fork in position if this cover is removed?
2. It looks like I can take this cover off with the gearbox in situ if I remove the accessory tray that holds the aircon compressor hydraulic pump and alternator, an air cleaner and the lay shaft. Is this feasible?
The only other problem this gearbox seems to have is a weak second gear synchromesh which I can live with for the moment.
Cheers, Ken
Hi Rhys,
I am adjusting it at the gearbox end with an observer watching the gear lever move sideways in the 3 - 4th plane. When I changed the cable I did the initial setup on the firewall and the console. I can negate the position of the reverse gear lockout by just lifting the knob as I move it sideways. I have no trouble selecting 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. When I pull back out of 5th, I cannot go straight down to reverse, I have to move the lever further to the right, then it will head down towards the back of the car. If I come up out of reverse position, I can go straight up into 5th even though I am over the reverse gear lockout.
So the gear change feels normal, its just that the reverse idler gear does not seem to slot into the right place between the gear on the primary shaft and the gear on the synchro ring on the output shaft.
Cheers, Ken
I am adjusting it at the gearbox end with an observer watching the gear lever move sideways in the 3 - 4th plane. When I changed the cable I did the initial setup on the firewall and the console. I can negate the position of the reverse gear lockout by just lifting the knob as I move it sideways. I have no trouble selecting 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. When I pull back out of 5th, I cannot go straight down to reverse, I have to move the lever further to the right, then it will head down towards the back of the car. If I come up out of reverse position, I can go straight up into 5th even though I am over the reverse gear lockout.
So the gear change feels normal, its just that the reverse idler gear does not seem to slot into the right place between the gear on the primary shaft and the gear on the synchro ring on the output shaft.
Cheers, Ken
Oh, it's a gated gearchange so you can't just move the gearlever a little to find the gears. What are the gearbox and engine mounts like 
If the gearbox can move around you will never get a reliable gated change
seeya,
Shane L.
If the gearbox can move around you will never get a reliable gated change seeya,
Shane L.
Shane,
No it's not gated, just made to look a little like that. It just has markings for where the gears should be found. Engine mounts are pretty solid especially the one on the end of the gearbox. Anyway the lateral cable outer and inner are both attached to the gearbox and will move with it.
Cheers, Ken
Ken
No it's not gated, just made to look a little like that. It just has markings for where the gears should be found. Engine mounts are pretty solid especially the one on the end of the gearbox. Anyway the lateral cable outer and inner are both attached to the gearbox and will move with it.
Cheers, Ken
Ken
One step forward and three steps backwards
I had a big win on Saturday. I gassed up the Air Conditioning with Hy-Chill and it now gets cold inside - all ready for Summer which is just around the corner in Qld. It ended up going quite smoothly even though I was on a big learning curve.
But as is always the case with an SM, it is one step forward and three backwards
I will be able to take it for a drive once I have managed to
1. find reverse reliably - starting to uncover the gearbox top cover ready to remove and inspect.
2. replaced a tri-axial joint boot - I found it was split when I was installing the battery door and I am now learning how to take a driveshaft out - reminds me of my GS days. Anyone in Brissie have a 3312-T for loan?
3. replaced a front suspension cylinder dust cap boot - yes it started to leak after I changed the LHM and I have to wait for one to come from the SM Club de France.
Cheers, Ken
I had a big win on Saturday. I gassed up the Air Conditioning with Hy-Chill and it now gets cold inside - all ready for Summer which is just around the corner in Qld. It ended up going quite smoothly even though I was on a big learning curve.
But as is always the case with an SM, it is one step forward and three backwards
I will be able to take it for a drive once I have managed to
1. find reverse reliably - starting to uncover the gearbox top cover ready to remove and inspect.
2. replaced a tri-axial joint boot - I found it was split when I was installing the battery door and I am now learning how to take a driveshaft out - reminds me of my GS days. Anyone in Brissie have a 3312-T for loan?
3. replaced a front suspension cylinder dust cap boot - yes it started to leak after I changed the LHM and I have to wait for one to come from the SM Club de France.
Cheers, Ken
Attachments
Inability to find reverse reliably is usually due to backlash in the shifter cable. See if you can adjust the cable so that you can get first and reverse consistently. If you cannot, try removing the driver's side bolster and have a look at where the cable end threads into the shifter. Often the rod is bent and so it tries to rotate 1/2 turn as it goes from compression to tension. You can unthread the cable (count the revolutions) then add a jam nut. To unthread the cable you have to pull the pin at the transmission end so the cable can rotate freely.
Also, if the nut holding the cable bracket to the transmission is loose that will cause excessive backlash. The problem is almost never inside the transmission. In particularly bad cases, I have actually had to remove a bit of metal with a Dremel from the shifter boss where it hits the far right edge of the mechanism. I have also considered forming some steel sleeves to go over the fingers of the shifter where it engages the bit that moves the cable. You will see what I am talking about when you get the bolster off.
Driveshaft Triaxe can be removed with a relatively cheap Chinese 12 ton 3-jaw hydraulic gear puller. "Harbor Freight" is one brand in the States. I assume you have something similar? Be certain to wipe the end of the shaft clean so you don't miss the snap ring that helps retain the triaxe. To put the gear back on, wait until SWMBO goes shopping, then heat the triaxe to about 450F in the oven. Once heated, it will slide back over the splines of the driveshaft. 450F will not affect the temper of the metal.
Also, if the nut holding the cable bracket to the transmission is loose that will cause excessive backlash. The problem is almost never inside the transmission. In particularly bad cases, I have actually had to remove a bit of metal with a Dremel from the shifter boss where it hits the far right edge of the mechanism. I have also considered forming some steel sleeves to go over the fingers of the shifter where it engages the bit that moves the cable. You will see what I am talking about when you get the bolster off.
Driveshaft Triaxe can be removed with a relatively cheap Chinese 12 ton 3-jaw hydraulic gear puller. "Harbor Freight" is one brand in the States. I assume you have something similar? Be certain to wipe the end of the shaft clean so you don't miss the snap ring that helps retain the triaxe. To put the gear back on, wait until SWMBO goes shopping, then heat the triaxe to about 450F in the oven. Once heated, it will slide back over the splines of the driveshaft. 450F will not affect the temper of the metal.
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Now that is what AF is all about!
Inside the Gearbox
Well despite advice from John at DS and John above, I thought I had exhausted all the possibilities of the issue being with the cable and the control rod so I continued with my plan to take the gearbox top cover off. See pics below.
Well I was wrong about the reverse idler fork slipping on the selector rod but it does look to me like the selector pin might have been tracking across the top of the drive gate on the reverse selector rod.
I will get to do some more measurements over the weekend to see if they back up this theory.
Can anyone else see anything interesting in this pics besides all the muck sitting some surfaces?
Cheers Ken
Well despite advice from John at DS and John above, I thought I had exhausted all the possibilities of the issue being with the cable and the control rod so I continued with my plan to take the gearbox top cover off. See pics below.
Well I was wrong about the reverse idler fork slipping on the selector rod but it does look to me like the selector pin might have been tracking across the top of the drive gate on the reverse selector rod.
I will get to do some more measurements over the weekend to see if they back up this theory.
Can anyone else see anything interesting in this pics besides all the muck sitting some surfaces?
Cheers Ken
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I'm not sure about the gearbox ..... but .....
How spectacular does this look! I have an urge to make this picture my profile picture
Isn't the gearbox similar in design to the late DS gearbox. I'm not aware of any issues with the DS gearbox and it's selectors in finding reverse (short of cable adjustment). What do the guys on the SM list say ? On that list you have Andrew Brodie, Carter Willey, the guy at SM australia ... all the well known experts in the world you could say
seeya,
Shane L
How spectacular does this look! I have an urge to make this picture my profile picture
Isn't the gearbox similar in design to the late DS gearbox. I'm not aware of any issues with the DS gearbox and it's selectors in finding reverse (short of cable adjustment). What do the guys on the SM list say ? On that list you have Andrew Brodie, Carter Willey, the guy at SM australia ... all the well known experts in the world you could say
seeya,
Shane L
Shane,
Unfortunately, Andrew Brodie is no longer with us.
http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/124363-andrew-brodie.html
Unfortunately, Andrew Brodie is no longer with us.
http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/124363-andrew-brodie.html
Ken,
Had you not already opened up the transmission, I would have suggested an experiment. If it is possible to adjust the cable so that you can select reverse reliably (even if it means you cannot select 1-2 reliably), that is proof the cable shifter has too much backlash. My guess is the cable is spinning (as I mentioned before) or the fingers that move the cable inside the shifter console have worn out.
Ken,
if it helps.......
I've had gearchange issues on reverse and fifth a few times in the past and every time it's always been fine adjustment of the cable at the gearbox end, except once when the bottom end of the gearstick came way too loose and needed sorting.
Re the driveshaft boot, it can be done without removing the triax. I put the shaft in the vice, heat the end of the boot in a pan of boiling water for a few minutes, then put it over one of the little shafts lever it over the second, then over the third with a big blunt screwdriver and some brute force. Crude but it works.
As for SM experts....John T is THE expert IMHO :wink2:
if it helps.......
I've had gearchange issues on reverse and fifth a few times in the past and every time it's always been fine adjustment of the cable at the gearbox end, except once when the bottom end of the gearstick came way too loose and needed sorting.
Re the driveshaft boot, it can be done without removing the triax. I put the shaft in the vice, heat the end of the boot in a pan of boiling water for a few minutes, then put it over one of the little shafts lever it over the second, then over the third with a big blunt screwdriver and some brute force. Crude but it works.
As for SM experts....John T is THE expert IMHO :wink2:
I have a Reverse Gear Back
Thanks for all the suggestions about issues due to the lateral cable shift, adjustment and wear issues. I had been aware of these and have just fitted a new cable with locknut onto the gear lever mech and had been playing with lateral adjustment for a few days with no result. That's why I decided I had to take the cover off.
Today I measured up the selector pins that were still mounted to the gearbox cover and found that they were well long enough reach well below the cutouts in the selector rods - so that wasn't the problem. I think I have already mentioned that the reverse idler fork seemed to be firmly attached to the selector rod and to be in the correct position.
Here is a similar image to that above but taken from the front of the car. There is a lot of parallax error in this photo that you can see from the vertical sides of the gearbox housing.
I have a closeup of the 5th reverse selector below
Then I noticed there was about a 5mm gap between the 5 gear selector drive tangs and the start of the reverse gear cut-out below - just enough for the 5mm wide reverse selector finger to fit down without actually moving the reverse selector rod. You can see the wear facets on the edge of the cutout where the3 selector has failed to engage and slipped past. Also the reverse selector drive was sloping towards the side of the gearbox casing which prevented the selector finger moving over to engage the selector drive cutout.
So I loosened the bolts on the selector fork and straightened the selector shaft and drive so it was all plumb and quite close to the 5 gear selector tangs. I put the cover back on for a trial and after tightening some bolts better to reduce lateral play, reverse was able to be consistently selected. Hooray.
So I in the process of putting it all back together again.
Cheers, Ken
Thanks for all the suggestions about issues due to the lateral cable shift, adjustment and wear issues. I had been aware of these and have just fitted a new cable with locknut onto the gear lever mech and had been playing with lateral adjustment for a few days with no result. That's why I decided I had to take the cover off.
Today I measured up the selector pins that were still mounted to the gearbox cover and found that they were well long enough reach well below the cutouts in the selector rods - so that wasn't the problem. I think I have already mentioned that the reverse idler fork seemed to be firmly attached to the selector rod and to be in the correct position.
Here is a similar image to that above but taken from the front of the car. There is a lot of parallax error in this photo that you can see from the vertical sides of the gearbox housing.
I have a closeup of the 5th reverse selector below
Then I noticed there was about a 5mm gap between the 5 gear selector drive tangs and the start of the reverse gear cut-out below - just enough for the 5mm wide reverse selector finger to fit down without actually moving the reverse selector rod. You can see the wear facets on the edge of the cutout where the3 selector has failed to engage and slipped past. Also the reverse selector drive was sloping towards the side of the gearbox casing which prevented the selector finger moving over to engage the selector drive cutout.
So I loosened the bolts on the selector fork and straightened the selector shaft and drive so it was all plumb and quite close to the 5 gear selector tangs. I put the cover back on for a trial and after tightening some bolts better to reduce lateral play, reverse was able to be consistently selected. Hooray.
So I in the process of putting it all back together again.
Cheers, Ken
Ken,
Well done! It appears your transmission was not assembled correctly at the factory (or if it has been repaired, not reassembled correctly). This is indeed a very rare failure. Ordinarily, the selector shafts will be rotationally self-oriented on account of the lockout plungers at the rear and the spring plungers at the front of the shafts. The cone point screw that goes through the selector itself engages a detent in the shaft, so its orientation is normally fixed. The only thing that is not fixed rotationally on the shaft, as you discovered, is the fork
The lockout plungers go through holes at the end of the slector shafts (you can see one plunger in the end of the 3-4 selector shaft in the photo below). If you rotated the shaft, it is possible the lockout plungers will not move easily and/or may get jammed, so do be certain you can operate all of the gears, not just reverse.
Well done! It appears your transmission was not assembled correctly at the factory (or if it has been repaired, not reassembled correctly). This is indeed a very rare failure. Ordinarily, the selector shafts will be rotationally self-oriented on account of the lockout plungers at the rear and the spring plungers at the front of the shafts. The cone point screw that goes through the selector itself engages a detent in the shaft, so its orientation is normally fixed. The only thing that is not fixed rotationally on the shaft, as you discovered, is the fork
The lockout plungers go through holes at the end of the slector shafts (you can see one plunger in the end of the 3-4 selector shaft in the photo below). If you rotated the shaft, it is possible the lockout plungers will not move easily and/or may get jammed, so do be certain you can operate all of the gears, not just reverse.
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Hi ken, from the pictures there is quite a lot of sludge in your gearbox, i would give it a good flush and add some wynns gearbox additive and flush again in say 1000 kms
Thanks Balki,
I noticed that and even googled for a solution. The spread of it is very uneven. There is no sludge where there is good oil splash but it is quite thick on top of the selector bits. Some recommended a 33% kero mix but the Wynns product sounds like a better approach.
Cheers, Ken
I noticed that and even googled for a solution. The spread of it is very uneven. There is no sludge where there is good oil splash but it is quite thick on top of the selector bits. Some recommended a 33% kero mix but the Wynns product sounds like a better approach.
Cheers, Ken
I went looking for manual gearbox additive around the local car accessory chains and I couldn't find any Wynns product or anything else. There are some online from the USA but not in Australia. Does anyone have any suggestions?
Cheers, Ken
Cheers, Ken