My R12 POS Arrived!
- Thread starter Bowie
- Start date
Tyre on the car cost nothing and it's always there when you need it. To clarify, there is no air loss save for whatever needs to fill the hose from the tyre to the MC cap.
Except that pressure above a few pounds per square inch has been known to blow the rubber connector out of the glass reservoirof early Renault models.
That would be a problem.
I seem to remember I once used the suck method to get the bleed started. I used a large syringe and appropriate sized hose to suck the air out of the front right brake bleed nipple, it did the job of filling the master cylinder, banjo fittings etc., succeeded by regular foot bleeding after that..
Well way to show of with all your years of experience everyone 
Ah what a bizarre weekend I had. Let me try to explain.. wait I need a coffee first.
Right so from Thursday night, ~9pm, after 1 session on the track, after melting the chrome can paint job on the front wheel we knew the brake calliper was stuffed. We went up to the wrecked Virage and took the calliper from that with our fingers crossed.
The dust seal was torn and it there was a bit of rust around the cylinder opening so we took it apart, protected the bore, and dumped it into the sand blaster to clean it up. Now reaching for the honing tools it appeared the piston was to far gone, this wasn't going to work. 11pm we turned it all off, left the car on the hoist and went home.
At 10am the next day I was at Colliers and they were retrieved a kit and a new piston from the time machine that is their upstairs! Racing back to work it was clear the emails would have to wait. I grabbed my work mate Andrew and we went back to the mess from last night.
We had decided to rebuild the calliper on the car, we took it off and the pad split in 3 pieces. yeah riiiiight. Virage wrecked pads where wrecked, ah wait there was some 17pads at home (1hr round trip) we would need these too (turns out they are the same).
Whilst the calliper was off we were inspecting the rest of the 50yr old POS and heck, everything was way overdue. The rotors were like melted plastic dinner plates, and the brake lines externally had started to give up, especially at the crimp locations. Inspecting the other calliper on the car, it was sticking too, this was the other one form the wreck we installed a few months back.
OK, NEW PLAN TIME!
It's now 12pm, the client for Friday (NSW RRC) had just arrived and I needed to actually do some work and look after them, then the Victorian team mates were due in at 1400, my father at 1600, I had to coordinate the day client leaving, the RRC bumping in, along with a South Circuit and Skid Pan client, at roughly 1700 and we were all scheduled for tea at 2000.
"Ok I'm out. I've run out of time, I can't help, lets pull the extinguisher out and tech screw it into the Commodore and we'll be done."
"Nah Dan, lets just go get some lines made up, I'll pull the callipers apart, it will be fine"
"Andrew, naah I can't ask you to work on this crap by yourself..."
"To bad! Lets call BnR Brakes, they'll make some lines on the spot, it'll be fine. And since we are making new lines and the rotters are stuffed, lefts just put the 17 stuff on."
"Andrew I'm done, I can't help"
"Naah don't worry about it, we have to go get the pads, let's get the lot and just whack it all on."
So despite better judgement we left work at noon, ended up at castle hill with an old Reno brake line in hand. BnR Brakes made them on the spot, had terminals to suit. They are freeking cool. By 1600 we had picked the crud up from my place, the Victorians and Dad were waiting, I unloaded all the crap and Andrew was keen, I apologetic.
At 1900 he had both hubs / control arms out, calls and needs help to pull the old rotors apart. At this stage we thought we had missed a seal or washer or something that was explaining whilst the 17 calliper brackets didn't fit. Speaking with Colliers earlier, he has confirmed that the spacers from 12,15,17 where all the same part. Dad had a rattle gun in hand after after pressing both types of hubs apart we muse that there is nothing we missed. Spaces are the same, no additional seal, what the truck is going on?
Col was right, we simply over pressed the carrier and hubs together. We attached the calliper bracket and pressed them together until it looked symmetrical.
"Andrew, come to dinner"
"Nah I'd rather just keep working thanks I just have to attach everything, it's fine, it's all but done.
I'm home with Dad at 1100 drinking tea, we are due at the track at 0630 the following morning. Prior to leaving we had encouraged Andrew to just walk away whenever he had enough, we were happy to use the Commodore. He didn't need to do all this, but he is a stubborn piece of work.
He calls ~1130 "can't work out the callipers guide / holder things, but it's all back together, come help bleed them."
Dad's like. "he's been working on your car this entire time.."
He's right, He goes to bed, I head back to work.
By 0100 I'm in the car in the air on the hoist and we start pushing air out. It takes ages, nothing is working, peddle is leaving marks in the firewall Andrew checks every fitting, connection, calliper, bleed point for leaks 50 times, nothings working. By 0300 we have 60% of what it was like, we get it down and see if we can lock up the wheels. Nah.
It's now 0330 we give up.
Ah the inexperience of claimed youth.
I get 50mins of sleep at home then I'm up with Dad, we get back to the track at 0630 start the process of changing vehicles and preparing the Commodore for some track abuse. We narrowly miss an under carpet loom as we teck screw an out of date Extinguisher to the floor.
We soon discover by talking to ppl with experience that we have no doubt, ruined the crap out of the master cylinder by all that pumping we did. The 50yr old piston was certainly pitted and laced with crap, we have just extended it out repeatedly and cut the seal up. Fluid is passing, there was no chance we were going to get pressure.
The Reno is entered in an event on the first of May, I'll be taking the 17 booster and master (and I suppose the pressure adjuster valve in the back for the drums, along with the 17 calipers) out to BnR to see if they can have them refreshed in time. Then new brake lines, (can't see how I can re bend what I have) to fit with the booster/master installed.
More Reno shaped shenanigans most likely the Friday night before!
And let me just say, for the record, Dad and I had a ball in the automatic Commodore with road tyres. There were some quick cars dive bombing everywhere, we would have just been swamped in the Reno not being able to take any decent line. The power of the commodore afforded us a bit of space.
I particularly enjoyed getting it crossed up under brakes into turn 2 before standing on it and having one wheel light up as it pulls us up towards turn 3 haha!
GO RACING!
Ah what a bizarre weekend I had. Let me try to explain.. wait I need a coffee first.
Right so from Thursday night, ~9pm, after 1 session on the track, after melting the chrome can paint job on the front wheel we knew the brake calliper was stuffed. We went up to the wrecked Virage and took the calliper from that with our fingers crossed.
The dust seal was torn and it there was a bit of rust around the cylinder opening so we took it apart, protected the bore, and dumped it into the sand blaster to clean it up. Now reaching for the honing tools it appeared the piston was to far gone, this wasn't going to work. 11pm we turned it all off, left the car on the hoist and went home.
At 10am the next day I was at Colliers and they were retrieved a kit and a new piston from the time machine that is their upstairs! Racing back to work it was clear the emails would have to wait. I grabbed my work mate Andrew and we went back to the mess from last night.
We had decided to rebuild the calliper on the car, we took it off and the pad split in 3 pieces. yeah riiiiight. Virage wrecked pads where wrecked, ah wait there was some 17pads at home (1hr round trip) we would need these too (turns out they are the same).
Whilst the calliper was off we were inspecting the rest of the 50yr old POS and heck, everything was way overdue. The rotors were like melted plastic dinner plates, and the brake lines externally had started to give up, especially at the crimp locations. Inspecting the other calliper on the car, it was sticking too, this was the other one form the wreck we installed a few months back.
OK, NEW PLAN TIME!
It's now 12pm, the client for Friday (NSW RRC) had just arrived and I needed to actually do some work and look after them, then the Victorian team mates were due in at 1400, my father at 1600, I had to coordinate the day client leaving, the RRC bumping in, along with a South Circuit and Skid Pan client, at roughly 1700 and we were all scheduled for tea at 2000.
"Ok I'm out. I've run out of time, I can't help, lets pull the extinguisher out and tech screw it into the Commodore and we'll be done."
"Nah Dan, lets just go get some lines made up, I'll pull the callipers apart, it will be fine"
"Andrew, naah I can't ask you to work on this crap by yourself..."
"To bad! Lets call BnR Brakes, they'll make some lines on the spot, it'll be fine. And since we are making new lines and the rotters are stuffed, lefts just put the 17 stuff on."
"Andrew I'm done, I can't help"
"Naah don't worry about it, we have to go get the pads, let's get the lot and just whack it all on."
So despite better judgement we left work at noon, ended up at castle hill with an old Reno brake line in hand. BnR Brakes made them on the spot, had terminals to suit. They are freeking cool. By 1600 we had picked the crud up from my place, the Victorians and Dad were waiting, I unloaded all the crap and Andrew was keen, I apologetic.
At 1900 he had both hubs / control arms out, calls and needs help to pull the old rotors apart. At this stage we thought we had missed a seal or washer or something that was explaining whilst the 17 calliper brackets didn't fit. Speaking with Colliers earlier, he has confirmed that the spacers from 12,15,17 where all the same part. Dad had a rattle gun in hand after after pressing both types of hubs apart we muse that there is nothing we missed. Spaces are the same, no additional seal, what the truck is going on?
Col was right, we simply over pressed the carrier and hubs together. We attached the calliper bracket and pressed them together until it looked symmetrical.
"Andrew, come to dinner"
"Nah I'd rather just keep working thanks I just have to attach everything, it's fine, it's all but done.
I'm home with Dad at 1100 drinking tea, we are due at the track at 0630 the following morning. Prior to leaving we had encouraged Andrew to just walk away whenever he had enough, we were happy to use the Commodore. He didn't need to do all this, but he is a stubborn piece of work.
He calls ~1130 "can't work out the callipers guide / holder things, but it's all back together, come help bleed them."
Dad's like. "he's been working on your car this entire time.."
He's right, He goes to bed, I head back to work.
By 0100 I'm in the car in the air on the hoist and we start pushing air out. It takes ages, nothing is working, peddle is leaving marks in the firewall Andrew checks every fitting, connection, calliper, bleed point for leaks 50 times, nothings working. By 0300 we have 60% of what it was like, we get it down and see if we can lock up the wheels. Nah.
It's now 0330 we give up.
Ah the inexperience of claimed youth.
I get 50mins of sleep at home then I'm up with Dad, we get back to the track at 0630 start the process of changing vehicles and preparing the Commodore for some track abuse. We narrowly miss an under carpet loom as we teck screw an out of date Extinguisher to the floor.
We soon discover by talking to ppl with experience that we have no doubt, ruined the crap out of the master cylinder by all that pumping we did. The 50yr old piston was certainly pitted and laced with crap, we have just extended it out repeatedly and cut the seal up. Fluid is passing, there was no chance we were going to get pressure.
The Reno is entered in an event on the first of May, I'll be taking the 17 booster and master (and I suppose the pressure adjuster valve in the back for the drums, along with the 17 calipers) out to BnR to see if they can have them refreshed in time. Then new brake lines, (can't see how I can re bend what I have) to fit with the booster/master installed.
More Reno shaped shenanigans most likely the Friday night before!
And let me just say, for the record, Dad and I had a ball in the automatic Commodore with road tyres.
There were some quick cars dive bombing everywhere, we would have just been swamped in the Reno not being able to take any decent line. The power of the commodore afforded us a bit of space.I particularly enjoyed getting it crossed up under brakes into turn 2 before standing on it and having one wheel light up as it pulls us up towards turn 3 haha!
GO RACING!
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Gawd I'm exhausted..
Bowie I will send you a race preparation checklist – standard procedure after each event and not less than two weeks before next race event. Preparation is not trying to repair newly discovered faulty parts two days before an event
You mean it's easier in the long run to be prepared 
Yes I haven't given the car any "real" attention. This bit me on the arse last week.
Lucky I got away with it for so long.
Yes I haven't given the car any "real" attention. This bit me on the arse last week.
Lucky I got away with it for so long.
A few people here have been diplomatically suggesting it for some time regarding brakes, suspension and other improvements that will not cost much money. Like most youngsters, you had to learn by your own personal experience.You mean it's easier in the long run to be prepared
Yes I haven't given the car any "real" attention. This bit me on the arse last week.
Lucky I got away with it for so long.
Race preparation starts the day after the last race on Sunday, its all fresh in your mind to fix those little niggles, or try some improvement.
Better pass by B&R Brakes after work tomorrow and get the brake lines made up that you require, and some new seals in that master cylinder.
Check lists are brilliant, when I was racing I had one for all the bits that I had to load into the van on a long list, a good way to make sure nothing gets left behind.
Race preparation list is pretty easy, should contain at least what the scrutineers check, all fluids, tire pressures etc
Indeed you have. That is a truth pancake right there!
You must have a similar list to mine Col. Apart from the stuff scrutineers check for compliance and safety, it is basic service issues such as pad thickness, checking for leaks, fluid levels, fresh brake fluid, bleeding brakes after each day of competition or more often if necessary, air cleaners if used, nut and bolt check, wheel alignment, suspension movement & lubrication.
The basic list I use is based on one Frank Gardner gave me when I was racing the BMW Gp5 built for BMW by McLaren. It applies to a Le Mans 24 hr car as much as a Bathurst 1000 car or Bowie's R12.
There are reasons why people like Frank Gardner are so successful in motor sport, and also races are not won on the track, they are won at home in the shed or workshop.
I only do Motorkhanas nowadays but still use a gear list of items to take with me. The prep list I do in my head from experience.
Well I don't think I'm going to make this Saturday..
BnR brakes at at work with the booster and master, I should be able to pick them up Friday.
A work mate has a proper brake line flaring tool, he wants the master to be in place before he start bending. I tried to offer we can work backwards and start from the wheels, copy the existing line and just extend ready for the master.. but he doesn't want to work like that..
I may have a brake system installed late Friday night.
Oh well, might prep everything else regardless tomorrow and see what time the call comes to come pick the master and booster up.
Very exciting.
Oh, 175 to re build the master and 275 for the booster.
BnR brakes at at work with the booster and master, I should be able to pick them up Friday.
A work mate has a proper brake line flaring tool, he wants the master to be in place before he start bending. I tried to offer we can work backwards and start from the wheels, copy the existing line and just extend ready for the master.. but he doesn't want to work like that..
I may have a brake system installed late Friday night.
Oh well, might prep everything else regardless tomorrow and see what time the call comes to come pick the master and booster up.
Very exciting.
Oh, 175 to re build the master and 275 for the booster.
oooooOoooooooooh, vented. Gees these things are tiny. Talk about a performance upgrade.
photos.app.goo.gl
But now we have no broken CV boots, new lower ball joints, new calipers and pads, a fresh master cylinder and booster, brand new brakes lines and flexible hoses, and kinda fresh lower control arm bushings.
I say kinda as they are split, 2 piece bushes, and move down on the shaft whilst driving.. I'm going to remove the tube thing, weld some large washers on to each end in effort to keep them in their silly position. I should have thought about that more when I got them made up and checked they were just wider. Oh well.
And just for the record, it wasn't a bolt in effort to simply take a 15/17 booster / master and install it. The opening in the firewall had to be enlarged ~15mm (was that common knowledge) and in doing so with a grinder I made a jolly good mess of things. Mercifully I suppose the carnage is hidden both directions.
You have to remove the peddle, and the split pin will brake and you won't be able another amongst all your crud and you will have to buy a box of 30. Aligning the boosters arm on the peddle, whilst ensuring the shaft that goes via it and the clutch peddle will be annoying and a spring will work it's way loose and glober you in the head. You will then install in the brake peddle / boosters arm retaining dowel backwards and spend another 20mins swearing at it trying to install the new split pin you bought.
After that you will try to bleed it whilst on a hoist without activating the proportion valve and you wont get any pressure in the rear lines despite taking everything apart and checking for clogs. You will even take apart the proportion valve wonder at it's function and design, spary a can of brake cleaner it in, dry out your hands and split open the wounds from last week.
You won't bother taking the rear hubs apart again (you already had them off hours ago and cleaned, checked, packed fresh grease into the bearings) to check the wheel cylinders, as it's now 4pm, you are tied. You will assume the are cactus and probably due for replacement anyway.
You will finally park it outside upset with it, your life choices, and everything and everyone else as you are so dam close, but also so gord dam stupid.
Talk about a performance upgrade.
New item by Dan Boads
photos.app.goo.gl
But now we have no broken CV boots, new lower ball joints, new calipers and pads, a fresh master cylinder and booster, brand new brakes lines and flexible hoses, and kinda fresh lower control arm bushings.
I say kinda as they are split, 2 piece bushes, and move down on the shaft whilst driving.. I'm going to remove the tube thing, weld some large washers on to each end in effort to keep them in their silly position. I should have thought about that more when I got them made up and checked they were just wider. Oh well.
And just for the record, it wasn't a bolt in effort to simply take a 15/17 booster / master and install it. The opening in the firewall had to be enlarged ~15mm (was that common knowledge) and in doing so with a grinder I made a jolly good mess of things. Mercifully I suppose the carnage is hidden both directions.
You have to remove the peddle, and the split pin will brake and you won't be able another amongst all your crud and you will have to buy a box of 30. Aligning the boosters arm on the peddle, whilst ensuring the shaft that goes via it and the clutch peddle will be annoying and a spring will work it's way loose and glober you in the head. You will then install in the brake peddle / boosters arm retaining dowel backwards and spend another 20mins swearing at it trying to install the new split pin you bought.
After that you will try to bleed it whilst on a hoist without activating the proportion valve and you wont get any pressure in the rear lines despite taking everything apart and checking for clogs. You will even take apart the proportion valve wonder at it's function and design, spary a can of brake cleaner it in, dry out your hands and split open the wounds from last week.
You won't bother taking the rear hubs apart again (you already had them off hours ago and cleaned, checked, packed fresh grease into the bearings) to check the wheel cylinders, as it's now 4pm, you are tied. You will assume the are cactus and probably due for replacement anyway.
You will finally park it outside upset with it, your life choices, and everything and everyone else as you are so dam close, but also so gord dam stupid.
And thinking about it. I will add an adjustable proportion valve, (I hadn't realized they could be had for $60) most likely in situ, replacing the old valve that does or doesn't work.
That will at least rid that variable.
Still odd that the rear wheel cylinders wouldn't move. Perhaps I've just pushed heads of crud into them over the past couple of days.
That will at least rid that variable.
Still odd that the rear wheel cylinders wouldn't move. Perhaps I've just pushed heads of crud into them over the past couple of days.