My R12 POS Arrived!

Just had another look at your pics, and looks you may have the hub pressed to far into the axle carrier.

Here is an exploded diagram of what you should have inside the carrier.
 

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Much appreciated Col.

I'll pull apart the hub and see what I've left out. :S

All in all it was a very frustrating day today with her.

The original caliper is junk, wouldn't budge, locked good, boot torn and bit of rust showing, doh.

We pulled the virage down and the caliper was compatible. So after giving it a brief clean, we managed to get the piston in and out enough that it made sense to install it on the race car.

Thank you virage.

We then spend about getting at the starter motor. Got the 3 bolts out but couldn't wiggle it free. Ok out comes the heat shield and still no good. Ok, out comes The manifold, oh yeah the engine pipe, ok ok. Oh these are the ones that are hard to get too. Of course.

So all that's out and then still no good. We can clearly see it's now fouling on the engine mount.

WTF batman!

It was getting late and had enough, so start the pack up and back under a tarp it went.

Clios are looking pretty good right now :(
 
bowie said:
Much appreciated Col.

I'll pull apart the hub and see what I've left out. :S

All in all it was a very frustrating day today with her.

The original caliper is junk, wouldn't budge, locked good, boot torn and bit of rust showing, doh.

We pulled the virage down and the caliper was compatible. So after giving it a brief clean, we managed to get the piston in and out enough that it made sense to install it on the race car.

Thank you virage.

We then spend about getting at the starter motor. Got the 3 bolts out but couldn't wiggle it free. Ok out comes the heat shield and still no good. Ok, out comes The manifold, oh yeah the engine pipe, ok ok. Oh these are the ones that are hard to get too. Of course.

So all that's out and then still no good. We can clearly see it's now fouling on the engine mount.

WTF batman!

It was getting late and had enough, so start the pack up and back under a tarp it went.

Clios are looking pretty good right now :(
Click to expand...

The calipers that go on the ventilated discs are not the same as the solid disc calipers.

I have adaptors here that I have made up to push out stubborn pistons with compressed air. Make sure you have a bit of flat bar placed across the caliper to stop the piston becoming a missile.

What starter motor do you have? to have that much trouble i'm guessing its a bosch. A Ducelier or a Paris Rhone are bit shorter and easier to remove and refit.

Sounds like you have had a bit of a frustrating day, its all part of the learning curve, we have all been there.
 
bowie said:
Using the 15 hub yes. We have either omitted a spacer when we pressed the hub and carrier together, or the disc is just to big (at 20mm new)

And if that s the case, what is the dics from :s.
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If they are the rotors you bought from me about 5 years ago they are:
Part No: RDA 343
Dia: 228mm.
Thickness: 20 mm.
6 hole on 100 pcd.
Supposedly for Renault 12 Gordini and R17.

As Col says; the calipers are different for the thicker ventilated discs.
 
You know what, it probably was about 5yrs ago :p Really can't rush these things I suppose. But heck I was close today.

Kinda. (n)

In my defense, I did confirm the Reno15 calipers are functional, and that I still had all the mounting hardware, and that I could even reuse the existing brake lines on the race car which was a nice bonus.

I really did have a frustrating day. I even smacked my finger a couple of times! Oh the humanity.

Re the starter motor, A crank handle attached to the front is still sounding like a good idea. The starter in it looked like it came with the car (dirt marks are a perfect match), so early type 1170 all the way from France I suppose. Manual says it should be the Ducellier, type 6187. What ever it is, when trying to extract it, there is not enough room to clear the gromit / colar on the bell housing before you run into the engine mount. FKN annoying for sure.
 
Dare I ask... are the starter motors interchangeable? I.e before I traumatize myself with removing the starter from the automatique' virage, is it even usable on my 1298cc donk?
 
They are interchangeable, but I would take a look first to make sure they're actually smaller. You can even use starters from 17/15 and possibly others (R16/18 maybe?) but they're all just as big and heavy.

In all honesty though, all starters this age are well past their due date. Get a modern high torque starter from whatever fits or modify and adapt one, it will be a much easier life with that. A starting point would be modern(-ish) Peugeot starters from Mi16/205 stuff like that. I mention these because this is what I have on hand and from a mile away they sort of look like they may be close to fitting. I am sure there's better options and there may even be something which is a direct fit given there's a gazillion starter models in the modern world. Just need to do a bit of research.

If nothing works, you can always find a starter with the correct pinion and throw, and make an adaptor plate to bolt on your 'box. The exercise is not going to be a complete waste of time because you can keep it when you move to the 807 engine.

Maybe ask Frans? R8 starters are similar and he may have found a smaller one already.
 
Yeah fair point, I am dealing with ~40+ yr old tech here. But thank you, good to know I have a back up in the virage should I need it.
 
Hi Bowie,

I have found and used a Bosch starter (from ZA) that is shorter but slightly bigger in diameter. They came out of some R5's. My spare is one of those.

Frans.
 
bowie said:
Dare I ask... are the starter motors interchangeable? I.e before I traumatize myself with removing the starter from the automatique' virage, is it even usable on my 1298cc donk?
Click to expand...

Yes they should interchange. All you should have to do is remove the heat shield, the electrical cables and the three bolts that hold the starter motor in. The starter motor then should just slip out. Also removing the air cleaner will make access a breeze.
 
schlitzaugen said:
They are interchangeable, but I would take a look first to make sure they're actually smaller. You can even use starters from 17/15 and possibly others (R16/18 maybe?) but they're all just as big and heavy.

In all honesty though, all starters this age are well past their due date. Get a modern high torque starter from whatever fits or modify and adapt one, it will be a much easier life with that. A starting point would be modern(-ish) Peugeot starters from Mi16/205 stuff like that. I mention these because this is what I have on hand and from a mile away they sort of look like they may be close to fitting. I am sure there's better options and there may even be something which is a direct fit given there's a gazillion starter models in the modern world. Just need to do a bit of research.

If nothing works, you can always find a starter with the correct pinion and throw, and make an adaptor plate to bolt on your 'box. The exercise is not going to be a complete waste of time because you can keep it when you move to the 807 engine.

Maybe ask Frans? R8 starters are similar and he may have found a smaller one already.
Click to expand...

The actual motor part of the starter motor maybe the same but the aluminium nose that carries the bendix drive is different.

There is nothing wrong with the original starter motors, they are simple to overhaul with mainly brushes that wear out and also the occasional bendix drive that fails.

Parts are still available to fix these starter motors, I have just bought bushes and brushes off Ebay at a reasonable cost.

It would be a lot of work to adapt a modern geared starter motor with the only real advantage is a bit of weight saving, the original starter motor is well and truly up to the job of starting the engines in these cars.

Anyway thats my :2cents: worth. YMMV
 
Well fiiiinaly got the starter out. We ended up having to remove the drivers side engine mount and borrow an adult with a forklift, I think I'll be grinding that mount down a touch before we put that back in.

After throwing the starter around like a football in the hope to lodge it free, we managed to have it throw the drive cog out, but only twitch in rotation.

Bizarrely, all that throwing around also damaged the mounting housing breaking and snapping one of the aluminum mounts off..

#wow-bowie.

Anyway, encouraged by the fact you all claim 5/10/12/15/17 starters are all near enough the same, I'll splurge with this and move on with my life.

www.ebay.com.au

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VIV LA RENO!
 
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Ah well I confused the poor shop keep by giving him the number on the starter; #9000 062 003

This is stamped in the body and as far as their books are concerned, match a Toyota 4AFE, 4AGE, & 7AFE

Despite me ensuring him that the patrons on Aussiefrogs certainly know whats what, and that they are all interchangeable, he doesn't feel comfortable and is having his supplier "look into it".

I gave them the measurements of the mounting face so they could check with theirs, and the fact that they didn't check, leads me to believe they simply don't have one.

Stay tuned tomorrow for the next episode of Conscientiousness or Calculating.
 
The starter arrived and vola! It's shorter then the original one.

This means I won't have to fus with the engine mount, and supporting engines etc etc.

Yaaaay.

Here's to another 40+ yrs of starting :p

photos.app.goo.gl

New item by Dan Boads

photos.app.goo.gl photos.app.goo.gl
 
Well done, you. From faint memory I didn't think removing the starter was such a bastard of a job on a 12. I hate having to take out lower balljoints more. In fact I always found it easier to take out the lower arm hingepin if it helped.
 
schlitzaugen said:
Well done, you. From faint memory I didn't think removing the starter was such a bastard of a job on a 12. I hate having to take out lower balljoints more. In fact I always found it easier to take out the lower arm hingepin if it helped.
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The Paris-Rhone starters aren't too bad, but the Bosch starters are larger than the Paris-Rhone starters so you usually have to remover the RH engine mount to get them in or out. That new starter looks way smaller, should be a doddle to refit.

Yes, the lower balljoints are a bastard, the driveshafts usually get in the way.
But the original balljoints that were rivetted on would all have been replaced by the bolt-on ones by now so should be easier.
 
schlitzaugen said:
Well done, you. From faint memory I didn't think removing the starter was such a bastard of a job on a 12. I hate having to take out lower balljoints more. In fact I always found it easier to take out the lower arm hingepin if it helped.
Click to expand...
REN TIN TIN said:
The Paris-Rhone starters aren't too bad, but the Bosch starters are larger than the Paris-Rhone starters so you usually have to remover the RH engine mount to get them in or out. That new starter looks way smaller, should be a doddle to refit.

Yes, the lower balljoints are a bastard, the driveshafts usually get in the way.
But the original balljoints that were rivetted on would all have been replaced by the bolt-on ones by now so should be easier.
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Its the Australian Bosch starter motors that are a pain in the ass to get out. The Paris Rhone and Ducellier types are easy.

As for ball joints I find the hardest part of those is breaking the taper joint, some come off easy and others well they just hang on.
 
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