My R12 POS Arrived!

schlitzaugen

1000+ Posts
If you can't bleed the rear wheels with the car up in the air, I'd say it's a fair chance the proportion valve works. That's what it's supposed to do. Close the rear brake circuit when the rear wheels are unloaded.

Yeap, french cars are full of M7. Better get yourself a decent stash of 11mm spanners/sockets in all sizes and versions. Just be thankful you don't work on Jap stuff where all the head are undersized so you need the next size down spanner to save weight? money? Something.

Told you to do it a while ago.

Did any of the R12 sold here have assisted brakes? They did in Europe. Not sure it was the same size booster as the R17 but they did. And twin circuit too.

When are you going to drop the 807 in?
 

Fwaygo

New member
I hope it's ok to pop this in this in thread, I didn't think it worthy to start a new one. I've just started trying to get a 1979 Virage back on the road and need to track down a fuel cap key if I'm ever to do that. Has anyone been able to source them (are they all the same cut?) Also the muffler is completely shot, have any of you had to replace them and if so how did you go about it given they're not around anymore. Thanks!
 

Bustamif

Member
I don't know much about the rear proportioning valve on Bowies 12. He is talking about replacing the one he believes to be faulty, with an adjustable competition type one. The competition ones I have seen, only have a basic pressure limiting function, adjusted by a lever or similar. They have no sensor or input to tell it that the rear wheels are unloaded.

There may be expensive ones these days but I would expect the cheap version Bowie speaks of has no sensors.
 

schlitzaugen

1000+ Posts
The OEM one on the R12, which is what I guess he's talking about is purely mechanical but very clever. It has a lever that actuates the valve to adjust flow (pressure) to the rear brakes. This lever is tied to the rear suspension so when the suspension moves up and down the lever moves with it, hence providing a proportional action to the loading on the rear wheels. There is (at least) one threaded link in the mechanism so the response of the valve is also very adjustable.
 
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Sunroof

1000+ Posts
I hope it's ok to pop this in this in thread, I didn't think it worthy to start a new one. I've just started trying to get a 1979 Virage back on the road and need to track down a fuel cap key if I'm ever to do that. Has anyone been able to source them (are they all the same cut?) Also the muffler is completely shot, have any of you had to replace them and if so how did you go about it given they're not around anymore. Thanks!
I once got stuck on the road with spare fuel but the wrong key to open the cap. Called a lock smith. He could not crack it at all. ended up drilling it out. Cost $200 yeras ago. As to the muffler. For two of my Renaults, went to a mufler shop with the first and they would not build a system for me so found another that would. They built a system using an off the shelf muffler they are still on both cars years later.
 

Bustamif

Member
The OEM one on the R12, which is what I guess he's talking about is purely mechanical but very clever. It has a lever that actuates the valve to adjust flow (pressure) to the rear brakes. This lever is tied to the rear suspension so when the suspension moves up and down the lever moves with it, hence providing a proportional action to the loading on the rear wheels. There is (at least) one threaded link in the mechanism so the response of the valve is also very adjustable.
Smart system, even better because you could probably fix it, unlike electric systems that are throw away.
Since Bowie is using his as a track car, the competition system would be more suitable and predictable as the rear brake pressure will be consistent.

BTW that stuff in here about someone's fuel cap key should be in another thread.
 
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bowie

1000+ Posts
Schlitz, yes all the 12's from ~72 onward had twin circuit masters with boosters whilst keeping the solid rotor discs and small drums (except the wagons that got the big drums at the rear). Couldn't tell you if they were common with Aussie 15/17's made sorry.

Lads in the shed are early Japanese bent too. (Corona Gt's, S800's) along with the usual VK, Torana, VH, SLR's etc etc. So when presented with a bolt head that isn't M6, isn't M8, they immediately reach for the imperial tools. After nothing there fits they start suggesting Whitworth :p We got it sorted in the end ;)

Always wanted suspension, brakes, fuel, before adding power, and my pocket money allowance isn't huge, so sh1t's taking time :p Getting there.

@Fwaygo, any decent muffler shop will find something that fits. I think I ended up with a motorcycle muffler installed at one point after the original rusted over when I was still using it on the street. Incidentally, some came with 2, and others just one at the end, so don't be to worried, what ever works is good! Re the fuel cap, is it stuck in the lock position? Smash a screw driver into the lock and force it free? The opening isn't a weird size, you shuld be able to find a replacement cap at supercheap / repco / autobahn etc etc.

Re the proportion valve, let me just say that mechanical switches that transfer across systems (suspension to brakes) are cool! An elegant solution. And don't get me started on the dorks that engineer such solutions. Engineers are just dam cool! HWOT!

I confess there is, a lot brackets I'm going to enjoy disconnecting and binning from this system (reckon at least a 1kg), and yes to save faffing, I might just replace it in situ with a simple screw type terminal.


I rerckon this will fit replacing the original valve. Would it be nice in the cabin? Sure, Am I going to need to adjust it during an event? Unlikely. Mount, test, dial in a setting I like, move on to the next thing. I'll see how I feel when I start mocking it up. I don't have enough brake line to remake the rear again, and that's another $70 that I'll need for wheel cyclinders and shoes. Anyway I'll decide when I have it in my hands :D

VIV LA RENO!
 

schlitzaugen

1000+ Posts
Schlitz, yes all the 12's from ~72 onward had twin circuit masters with boosters whilst keeping the solid rotor discs and small drums (except the wagons that got the big drums at the rear). Couldn't tell you if they were common with Aussie 15/17's made sorry.

Lads in the shed are early Japanese bent too. (Corona Gt's, S800's) along with the usual VK, Torana, VH, SLR's etc etc. So when presented with a bolt head that isn't M6, isn't M8, they immediately reach for the imperial tools. After nothing there fits they start suggesting Whitworth :p We got it sorted in the end ;)

Always wanted suspension, brakes, fuel, before adding power, and my pocket money allowance isn't huge, so sh1t's taking time :p Getting there.

@Fwaygo, any decent muffler shop will find something that fits. I think I ended up with a motorcycle muffler installed at one point after the original rusted over when I was still using it on the street. Incidentally, some came with 2, and others just one at the end, so don't be to worried, what ever works is good! Re the fuel cap, is it stuck in the lock position? Smash a screw driver into the lock and force it free? The opening isn't a weird size, you shuld be able to find a replacement cap at supercheap / repco / autobahn etc etc.

Re the proportion valve, let me just say that mechanical switches that transfer across systems (suspension to brakes) are cool! An elegant solution. And don't get me started on the dorks that engineer such solutions. Engineers are just dam cool! HWOT!

I confess there is, a lot brackets I'm going to enjoy disconnecting and binning from this system (reckon at least a 1kg), and yes to save faffing, I might just replace it in situ with a simple screw type terminal.

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I rerckon this will fit replacing the original valve. Would it be nice in the cabin? Sure, Am I going to need to adjust it during an event? Unlikely. Mount, test, dial in a setting I like, move on to the next thing. I'll see how I feel when I start mocking it up. I don't have enough brake line to remake the rear again, and that's another $70 that I'll need for wheel cyclinders and shoes. Anyway I'll decide when I have it in my hands :D

VIV LA RENO!
Hang on a second right there.

What do you mean by S800? Honda S800? Or Toyota Sports 800?

Regarding the brake proportional valve, you are going to replace a superior design with an inferior design. You can adjust the one you have to give you infinitely precise settings depending on whatever you want.

And they also rarely fail.

And are easy to repair if they do.

In fact get a second one and refurbish it and you will never ever need it, guaranteed.

Regarding the engine swap, I see your point but I think your other settings will go out the window the moment you basically double the engine power. so you'll have to start over again. I would stick that 807 in and tune the rest to suit.
 
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bowie

1000+ Posts
Well the Japanese nerd has had both actually (Toyota Sports 800 and a Honda S800)

He's currently focused on restoring, I think it's a ~68 Carona 1600 GT (RT55). The proper coupe with bigger cut outs in the front guards, 5sp box, DOHC head, and other fancy 2000GT hand over bits. Gord it's a cool bloody thing.

I do challenge you on the superior design, I'm replacing an entire linkage system with a single valve with a screw thread. Agreed for it's purpose the factory system appears great. My valve was rusted and pitted on both sides of the moving piston, the rubber seal was scratched and frayed, along with the rubber boot on the contact part being torn and cracked. I could hone, clean, shop for the correct seal, or I could just attach a single valve, adjust to my liking, and move on.

I'm conscious I'm going to eventually work at removing all those rubber links in that rear end, so I'll be reducing the roll in the beam, and the effect on that system anyway. "shrugs"
 
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schlitzaugen

1000+ Posts
That valve works in conjunction with the suspension, which is what you want. Yes, you can adjust the new valve, but not for each and every corner. As for reducing the deflection of the suspension, you can simply change the lever fulcrum point and that will restore the travel for the valve to take into account the reduced travel of the beam. Like I said, infinitely adjustable, self regulating.

That Toyota Sports 800 must be one of three I know of in the country (one still in pieces and need of serious resto). Serious Toyota addict car. Any pics?
 
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Fwaygo

New member
Got my fuel cap issue sorted - the previous owner had a key in his stash of other keys fortunately, also managed to get door keys as well as the door key wasn't working which I presumed to be more a lock than key issue.
The car was started for the first time in about 5 years last weekend which was a relief but we couldn't run it for long given it had no radiator which was off getting pressure tested. Turns out it was turning the testing bath into a spa bath with so many leaks. Instead of having for fork out $$$ for a recoring has anyone had any joy sourcing new radiators locally?
Thanks!
 

bowie

1000+ Posts
Reckon you are on the better path having it rebuilt to be honest.

If someone does have a radiator in stock, it's now been sitting in the shelf for 20yrs, getting knocked around, moved from there to here.. etc etc.

But to be fair, I haven't looked that had, second hand radiators (recovered from wrecks) have served me ok.
 

COL

Alpine A110
The car was started for the first time in about 5 years last weekend which was a relief but we couldn't run it for long given it had no radiator which was off getting pressure tested. Turns out it was turning the testing bath into a spa bath with so many leaks. Instead of having for fork out $$$ for a recoring has anyone had any joy sourcing new radiators locally?
Thanks!
I reckon a re-core would be the way to go unless you can find a 2nd hand one in exceptional condition.

If you do gt a 2nd hand one, like Bowie says it will have been sitting around and the core is most likely need to be rodded out to clean out the core. I have done an R17 radiator for my R12 because I could not keep the engine cool. After I de-soldered the tanks from the radiator and cleaned out the cores as they were about 80% full of crud. After doing this I soldered on the tanks to the core and tested for leaks. After that painted the radiator black. When paint was dry installed in the car.

Since doing this I have not had any over heating issues, actually the thermo fan rarely comes on unless stuck in traffic for extended periods.
 

bowie

1000+ Posts
First time on a truck :p Managed to leverage some outgoing relationships to scab a lift.


I should be picking it up on the weekend, Yaaaaaay

Oh and the new rental at Heidelberg has a covered shed, Nonesence can continue.
 
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bowie

1000+ Posts
Oh Hi everyone!

With my house mostly unpacked I could afford an afternoon in the new shed fitting that new adjustable rear valve, bleeding it again, and off I go.

Not so fast I hear the universe whisper.

Turns out not having access to a hoist is dumb. It's a bit of an ordeal getting the rear onto stands as my narrow driveway makes stuff a little awkward. The shed is off course to narrow to work in so I have to pull it out to play with it (Ed. Errrr.. ..)

Moving right along, I struggled undoing the rusty proportioning linkage arm, and nearly rounded the heads on the existing brake line. Not wanting to make the same mistake again I fitted the flexi line from the beam first to the new valve. Then, well the existing hardline won't live in the new valves port.

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!


Checking the threads on the hard line in the old proportion valve, it's a little crappy, actually it's pretty crappy, but there is still movement. The new valve, I just can't get the thread started at all. The valve is a standard 1/8-27 NTP please don't tell me the original proportion valve had two different ID's on it, one for the hard line in and one for the flexi line out?

Better yet, I've probably just munched the threads on the hard line.

Le sigh.


Right, so that most being most likely the case I will have to create a new flipping hard line. And since the line to the rear does some Jimangi to clear the steering rack / suspension, I'm now just going to cheat and bring it inside the cabin, set the valve next to my chair, and pass it back out the back.

And here I was thinking I'd be out doing skids in Heidelberg in no time at all.

VIV LA RENO!
 

Fwaygo

New member
I'm having trouble with mine too - got a new master cylinder as the old one was full of gunk, not having been used for at least 5 years but it doesn't want to bench bleed out all four lines, the larger one with the bleed valve is being a pain.

Also finding out other bits and pieces that are wrong with it - no horn :( The manual alludes to the fact that the switch is usually to blame - is that the experience of others it doesn't look like it's getting power to the relay or horns.

Unfortunately after about 3 rotations the blower fan gave out too. Any wisdom on how it might be repaired/replaced would be gratefully appreciated. At least this one doesn't have the switch to blame.

Thanks!!
 

REN TIN TIN

1000+ Posts
There should be a separate switch on the dash for the blower fan and a resistor coil for the low speed on the back of the ashtray housing.
The blower fans don't usually do a lot of work as even at their best, the airflow is pretty feeble so they don't get used much.
But if it turned a few times and gave out it's possible you have corrosion on the wiring somewhere creating a high-resistance connection or the fan switch is faulty.
The blower fan is relatively easy (but fiddley) to get to.
There are just 3 nuts holding it on and unplug the wiring harness (2 wires) and it's ready to remove.
The earlier types (Australian parts) had a metal fan duct with a large fan motor bolted to the bottom of the duct. Later types had a plastic fan duct with a small motor mounted in the duct housing.

You can remove the panel on the plenum and try to turn the fan by hand, that will tell you whether the motor is seized.
If it is the fan motor, there should be used fan motors around if you can't get new, I know I have a couple (or did last time i looked).
Others probably have too.

Cheers
RTT
 
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