My new challenge - 1964 ID19F Safari

Can't edit posts anymore?

Anyway, not sure if anyone pointed this out yet, the reason I suggested you need a Dwell meter is not only to set the Dwell correctly but to check for wear in the dizzy shaft. If this is worn, the dwell will never be steady no matter how much you try to adjust the points gap. Even if everything else is absolutely perfect, your ignition events will be all over the place (too short, too long, too weak too strong, at the wrong time, etc).

Which means Dwell needs to be tuned to the value of your capacitor. Too much Dwell, and the capacitor doesn't have the time to charge and absorb the current of the coil collapsing field, too little Dwell and the capacitor doesn't have time to donate its charge to the coil to help rise the field back up (it is basically shorting the coil winding). Like I said before, capacitance values written on the capacitor are not that important because the tolerance is rather high anyway, but it is essential that the ignition is tuned to find the best dwell angle for whatever the capacitance may be. The adjustment built in the points gap gives you quite enough range to find the sweet spot over the range of possible values of capacitance even with a 20% tolerance but you need to be able to measure dwell reliably otherwise you're shooting in the dark. The coil inductance comes into play as well, but that's another minefield.

Point is, tune your ignition looking at the Dwell angle, for YOUR engine NOW not the points gap as it is recommended by the factory for a brand new engine seventy years ago. Ideally you would have some Dwell value for the engine when it was new and aim to replicate that. That is your baseline. Your engine may or may not be happiest at that value, depending on many things mentioned above (everything comes into play, coil inductance, wires, dizzy, plugs, mixture richness, etc) but starting at a reasonable value of dwell gives you a fighting chance to tune things right.

Hope you get something out of that.
 
In fact many multimeters now have a capacitance measurement capability as well as the usual resistance capability. I have also found it is necessary to check the insulation resistance at a high voltage in the range that they operate. The easiest way to test this is to use an electrician insulation tester that works at 500 volts DC more commonly known as a Megger. When you do the test, the insulation resistance should rise a bit slowly as the capacitor charges but should end up towards the end of the Megohm scale if the insulation is good and it doesn't break down. When the test is finished, remember to discharge the capacitor by shorting it out or else it might give you a 'bite'.

Cheers, Ken
 
Okay, maybe I wasn't clear after all those words.

Capacitance value is not important. Even if you did know it, it would be of little value unless you're one of those really bright engineers who can calculate everything that happens in a real (as opposed to ideal) circuit.

The capacitors need to be checked for leakage. That is not material leakage, but electrical leakage. Not ESR either. DC leakage. Electrolyte breakdown.

This is not measured by any currently available meter no matter how expensive. You need a dedicated circuit and a dedicated instrument. People have designed their own, but the one I linked to is what you are most likely to find in some guy's attic especially if they are an electronics fan, and especially if they play with valve stuff.

You could get some idea that a capacitor may be suspicious if using a "normal" meter and capacitance looks higher than body specified value. That may be because the capacitor leaks. Modern electronic meters measure capacity by charging the capacitor at a certain voltage and measuring in fact the time to reach a certain voltage value across the capacitor. A longer time means a larger capacitance. BUT it can also mean a capacitor that charges slower due to internal DC leakage. That is something you want to avoid at all costs in a capacitor used in a car.

I also said before, these things need to be tested in rather extreme conditions, i.e. high temperatures, high voltage. The capacitor can be perfectly fine at ambient temperature, at low voltage. At high temperatures and high voltages they might actually behave like a resistor. That is where that checker I liked above comes in. Being made back in the fifties, it is politically incorrect and doesn't pussyfoot around the bush. It will test capacitors at over 600V. Modern designs use different approaches that rely on low voltage. Not the same.

Now I don't know what the specified working voltage is for car capacitors, because manufacturers rarely specify it. But the collapsing field in the coil can easily generate spikes over 12kV. Don't know how to check a capacitor can withstand that. BUT. Those are brief spikes. RMS the voltage would be less and the duty cycle much lower. So if it does hold over 600V (some can test even higher, up to about 1200V) with no leakage, I would say it's the best you can hope for.

Now I'm not sayin' you should go out and try to buy one of those, they seem to fetch serious money if you even find one up for grabs. But I am sure somebody knows somebody who heard of someone who has one. One of mine has actually come from Victoria. A few minutes getting friendly with one of these instruments should yield a harvest of checked capacitors that will serve well. Keep in mind also that capacitor insulation degrades in time. Worse if they work hard, less if they sit on a shelf. But it degrades. O don't keep a stash on hand "for later". Capacitor technology is improving fast especially since we like to put inverters and SMPS everywhere.
 
A quick test on an ignition capacitor (discharged) is to simply check the resistance. Very high mega-ohms suggests it might be OK. Open or closed circuit tells you it is most likely junk and should be replaced. As the last few posts suggest there is more to it, but this might at least help to pick out the most obvious junk parts.

Note that super-capacitors on stop start cars are an entirely different beast and there are specific tools to discharge and test those.
 
I solved the overheating coils problem in my 1959 DS19 by setting the dwell exactly to factory specification.

Roger
Well gents, you might be pleased to hear that I invested $50 in a used 70s Hawk Pro-Am Analyser… with all sorts of functions for rpm, volts, resistance, etc… and dwell!

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Comes with great instructions and even an engine trouble shooting guide. And it also shows the data for a 1964 ID19 - handy!

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Funnily it also shows a 1963 DS19 6 cylinder model - hmmm, a secret US version 🤫?

I will play with the meter over the weekend and see how far my points are off the recommended 60 degree dwell angle.

Sven

PS: the car has been behaving. tackled 50klm including the Westgate bridge this morning to pick up the meter … and we are booked in for a 200klm drive with the SM owners group on Sunday… let’s see whether she will complete that test without issues. 🤞🤞🤞
 
Couldn’t wait of course for the weekend to see whether the meter works - seems to work well. Checked rpm and voltage and it matched up.

Now: dwell: it was sitting at 40 degrees vs the 60 degree as spec in the manual (can anyone confirm, is 60 degree correct for the long stroke engines?). So I closed the points more to get it up to 60 degree and then readjusted the timing again as well (was probably about 5 degree too retarded, near zero before TDC. Moved it back to 5 degree BTDC) - does that all line up logically?

The good thing is that there is no variation / fluctuation, so the distributor shaft is fine and not worn.

Test drive next. Am concerned the points are now too “tight” and might burn? Is that a risk when one increases dwell?
 
Test drive next. Am concerned the points are now too “tight” and might burn? Is that a risk when one increases dwell?
It does shorten points life, but what is your "new" points gap?
 
That is what I am talking about! Great find, well done, serious envy here. Such a nice instrument. A total steal at 50 bucks. Where the heck did you find it?!

Is the dwell reading steady ? Or does it bounce around a bit? Should be rock steady, if not, dizzy shaft is worn.

What a nice instrument. Can't get over it.

Doesn't that book say 10 deg BTDC? Is that static or dynamic?
 
Well gents, you might be pleased to hear that I invested $50 in a used 70s Hawk Pro-Am Analyser… with all sorts of functions for rpm, volts, resistance, etc… and dwell!

View attachment 139001View attachment 139002View attachment 139003View attachment 139004

Comes with great instructions and even an engine trouble shooting guide. And it also shows the data for a 1964 ID19 - handy!

View attachment 139006

Funnily it also shows a 1963 DS19 6 cylinder model - hmmm, a secret US version 🤫?

I will play with the meter over the weekend and see how far my points are off the recommended 60 degree dwell angle.

Sven

PS: the car has been behaving. tackled 50klm including the Westgate bridge this morning to pick up the meter … and we are booked in for a 200klm drive with the SM owners group on Sunday… let’s see whether she will complete that test without issues. 🤞🤞🤞

I wonder if they have mixed it up with the 1953 Big 6 :) That's a nice little collectable to have sitting on the shelf. Does it work? if it doesn't replacing any capacitors that will probably get it going again!
 
I doubt that instrument has any capacitors in it. Would be nice to have a peek inside but I guess it has a few precision resistors and possibly a rectifier.

It is a simple meter. More to the point, a volt meter with a Wheatstone bridge or some such, switchable to measure currents (within some range), which it probably does by measuring voltage drop across a calibrated resistor.

Intriguingly, it has a Condenser measuring function. Looking at the scale, it seems to have a narrow range of values for the Condenser setting between infinity(? - can't make it out, end of scale anyway) and 20kOhm, more like a "good-bad" test I imagine.

Like I said, very nice little unit and in good shape it seems. I would totally open it up and measure the precision resistors inside, because the entire unit relies on these not moving at all. With some specialist instruments you could give it an alignment and it will probably serve faithfully well beyond our lifetime.
 
I wonder if they have mixed it up with the 1953 Big 6 :)
I thought it might have been referring to the earlier aircooled flat six DS, like the one in my neighbour's hayshed.🤥

However I had a quick look and it's a different firing order.🤷‍♂️
 
Well gents, you might be pleased to hear that I invested $50 in a used 70s Hawk Pro-Am Analyser… with all sorts of functions for rpm, volts, resistance, etc… and dwell!

View attachment 139001View attachment 139002View attachment 139003View attachment 139004

Comes with great instructions and even an engine trouble shooting guide. And it also shows the data for a 1964 ID19 - handy!

View attachment 139006

Funnily it also shows a 1963 DS19 6 cylinder model - hmmm, a secret US version 🤫?

I will play with the meter over the weekend and see how far my points are off the recommended 60 degree dwell angle.

Sven

PS: the car has been behaving. tackled 50klm including the Westgate bridge this morning to pick up the meter … and we are booked in for a 200klm drive with the SM owners group on Sunday… let’s see whether she will complete that test without issues. 🤞🤞🤞
Wow, that was a great find! Great price too! I too am jealous.
For other jealous people I will mention that my dwell meter is actually a modern digital multimeter designed for automotive use. It includes a tachometer and dwell meter as well as the usual DMM functions.


https://www.jaycar.com.au/automotiv...7YccmiPaTXyb0z4ACabM0e6d17vuJvoRoC5iUQAvD_BwE
 
Mine is an el cheapo grand-grand-grand son of the one above. Digital meters are nice but when measuring something that fluctuates they can be annoying. You see some numbers changing all the time. Analogue is much better because they display the fluctuations better. You can see the needle going back and forth and you can actually read some values.
 
A dwell of 40 degrees is too low.

The advance curves (op 210-00 in manual 814-1) give 57 +-2 degrees (SEV-Marchal) and 59 +-2 degrees (Ducellier) for pretty much all distributors. Interestingly, manual 814 goes back to 1955 cars, so yours should be there. The identification guide for the distributor originally specified is in the next pages.

I find that 57 degrees is about best for my late Ducellier. As said above, you want it to be stable.

It's also worth checking that the advance your distributor is showing runs pretty close to the specified curve.
 
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Well, she passed her maiden voyage with only one hiccup…. Four SMs and my Safari went for a 250klm run around SE Melbourne. Long straights and then into the hills south of Drouin. The Safari went well and kept up ok besides on hill climbs… the speed drops off pretty rapidly in fourth gear. But on the windy sections, flats and downhill she ran like a trooper!

Very Comfortable, no more fuel smell (found the leak - I needed to seal the gap between the fuel pipe coming out of the tank and the outer protective hose on the sill side (photo is upside down) - easy fix with an additional hose clamp), smooth gear shifting and good brakes. All worked as intended.

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We then stopped for a quick photo stop and 200m later the generator light came on and I rolled to a stop…. Hmm, electrics again…😩

Fuse 1 was blown and my one spare blew immediately as well, so we assumed a possible short in the ignition switch. Very friendly Poowong (yep, that’s the town name) residents came to my aid with a kettle cord and some connectors to fashion up a jumper cable between positive battery terminal and the coil.

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Ran as well as before and we got to brunch and home without any more issues. Phew…

Cylinder head temp got up to 75 degrees in slow stop and go traffic and 27 degrees outside; normal running is around 65, so I might set the alarm to 80 degrees.

The coil got to 60 degrees, but no issues. The dwell adjustment doesn’t seem to have had any noticeable impact on the coil temp - 50+ degrees seems to be ‘normal’…

I will be changing oil next weekend, put the proper coolant in and work my way through a few more items on the punch list:

- front drive shafts are ‘clicking’ - they might need a proper overhaul after all. They ‘felt’ ok, but may not be…

- clutch needs a bit more adjustment. Going down from third to second crunches too often.

- my speedo drive is starting to be noisy and the needle wobbles all over the dial. I hope a bit of oil/TLC will suffice.

But all in all: very successful. Engine feels solid and good, and isn’t blowing any smoke - time for the 500klm oil change.

A few more photos from the drive:

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Sven
 
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