• aussiefrogs will be closing to new forum posts from January 26th, 2022. This will make it a clean 22 years of service to the Australian French car community. The site will remain static after this date and accessible, but not taking any new content. All email addresses, IPs, private messages (conversations), passwords, will be deleted. Only the main forums will be retained after the transition. There will be a link prominently placed forwarding visitors to another forum elsewhere (not affiliated) that is either currently existing or is to exist, that current members here could be found again. Gerry – aussiefrogs.com
  • Tapatalk and Mobile iOS/ Android APPs no longer supported on aussiefrogs.com. Please delete on your device. Use the web interface instead.

Longstroke ds/id census

donat

Ashtray Polisher
Since a lot of the information collated was lost during the AF crash, I thought it might be a good idea to revive this important document that Gilbert Henry started many years ago.

I'm looking at (further) tidying and correcting this census as new information rolls in. If there's enough interest and enthusiasm from others, this may well end up being available on a website with photos and further information that goes with the car.

Baz in New Zealand has done a fantastic job in keeping records of Slough-built Ds on the other side of the Tasman, and with your help, we can in turn put our collective heads together and make something of the same.

The overall aim of this census is to heighten the awareness and historical attributes of these early D models and to be able to 'share the knowledge' with others as to how many cars have survived in the last 45 plus years.

I welcome you all to either email me (donat77 at hotmail dot com) or send a private message with any data that will be useful in making this census as accurate and definitive as possible.

Regards

Donat Tahiraj

LONGSTROKE DS ID CENSUS

How many Pre '67 LONG STROKE DS & ID cars are left in Australia?
Are people driving them and where?

This CENSUS might help us to know how many early cars are still around and in what condition.

These rough figures are best to my knowledge and all criticisms and updates are welcome.

--- John Paas and Donat Tahiraj (Brisbane)

Total so far = ?

'55=,'56=,'57=,'58=,'59=,'60=,
'61=,'62=,'63= 4'64=,'65=.

Total that CAN DRIVE 65 miles (100km)=
'55=,'56=,'57=,'58=,'59=,'60=,
'61=,'62=3,'63=,'64=,'65=.

DS19 = 24
`56=,'57=,'58=',
`59=,'60=,'61=,
'62=,'=,'64=,'65=.

ID19 Sedan French = 1
`56=,'57=,'58=',
`59=,'60=,'61=,
'62=,'=,'64=,'65=1.

ID19 Safari Total=3
`56=,'57=,'58=',
`59=,'60=,'61=,
'62=,63'=2,'64=1,'65=.

ID19 Sedan Australian assembled Total=12?
`56=,'57=,'58=1?',
`59=,'60=1,'61=4,
'62=7,63'=4,'64=5?,'65=.

ID19 Sedan Slough assembled Total=3
`56=,'57=,'58=3',
`59=,'60=,'61=1,
'62=,63'=,'64=,'65=,66=2

ID19 Safari French assembled =2
`56=,'57=,'58=',
`59=,'60=,'61=,
'62=1,'=,'64=2,'65=,66=1



***A. Registered
**B. Recently travelled 100km (65mi.)
*C. Can probably travel 100km (65mi.)
D. Complete, good cond.
E. Complete, restorable
F. Complete, but Rustbucket
G. Incomplete car
H. Chassis Plate still exists
I. Some history known some parts exist
xxxJ. Some history known car gone

1st FRONT BUMPER,DS has 1st(wave)DASH SCREWS ON TOP OF GLOVE BOX

1955 ---E.DS.French 000122 Buttercup Bob, NSW Australia *
1955 ---D. DS.French 000123 L.Collins, Bris. Qld Australia
1955 ---F. DS.French 000124 Buttercup Bob, NSW Australia
1956 ---I. DS.Slough 9/560006 was owned Rex Carkeek,New Zealand reg.BZ-402.(
engine for sale in New Zealand and rumour of buried body, maybe??? --
John Paas)
xxxx1956J. DS.Slough 9/560015 sent to Sydney and sold to Dick Mortimer in
Aug.'56.(dead,gone)
1956 ---G. DS.Slough 9/560148 DS John Paas Bris. Australia
1956 -xxI?. DS.Slough 9/?? DS Michael Thomson Canberra Australia
1956 ---F. DS.Slough 9/560204 Buttercup Bob. NSW Australia
1956 xxxJ. DS.Slough 9/560256 cream BHS-181 sold 4-7-57 prev. owner, N.E.Finch Whale Bch Sth Aust
1957 ---E. DS.Slough No.9/ Sitting in shed in country town W. Victoria, Australia (John Paas knows)
1957 ---E. DS.Slough No.9/ Sitting in shed in country town in southern Western Australia ( " ")
1957 ---D. DS.Slough No.9/56275 slash through 6 & 7 stamped above. Roger Brundle, Castlemaine
Victoria, Australia
1957 ---E. DS.Slough No.9/56280 slash through 6 & 7 stamped above Andrew Murray, Red Hill, Vic

ISTR. PANEL CHANGED FROM NEEDLE GOING ACROSS TO NEEDLE GOING ACROSS
IN ARC. Jan 58?


1957 ---H. DS.Slough 9/570463 L.Collins Bris. Australia
1957 ---E. DS.Slough 9/570528 Blue Mountains, Australia
1957 ***A DS.Slough 9/570660 "Buttercup", Bob Australia
1957 ***A 9/570906 DS "Bluebell" Tassie John, Tasmania. Australia
1957 ---G. DS.Slough 9/571060 Blue Mountains, Australia
1957 ---G. DS.Slough 7705341 Belgie (XD-17-49 Holland) Blue Mts,Aust. -
1957 ---E. DS.Slough 9/570857 Tassie John, Tasmania. Australia
1957 ---E. DS.Slough 9/570779 Buttercup Bob NSW Australia
1957 ---E. DS.Slough 9/571033 Peter, Australia.Lived in Wellington,New Zealand coming to Aus.
1957 ---E. DS.Slough 9/571075 John V. NSW Australia
1957 ---E. DS.Slough 9/571148 Buttercup Bob NSW Australia

BONNET STAY CHANGED FROM LEFT TO RIGHT SIDE IN OCTOBER 1957


1958 ---D. DS.Slough No.9-..Menaia, New Zealand (POSSIBLE sale)
1958 ---F. DS.Slough 9/581278 Western Victoria,Australi
1958 ---H. DS.Slough 9/581279 last reg.Vic KDP 086. Castlemaine Vic,Australia (Had Holden dash)
1958?---D --- DS Menaia, New Zealand A few in shed (POSSIBLE sale) (Ask Gilbert)
1958 ---A. ID Slough sedan 9/585338 reg. No. IDEE Roger. Castlemaine, Victoria
1958 –D?. ID Slough? sedan Bob Worthington. (Grey)clue supplied by Greg c
1958 ???. ID Slough? sedan Was owned by Mel Carey “some time ago”.
1958 ---C? ID Slough? sedan 9/?? DS Michael Thomson Canberra Australia
1959 ***A. DS.Slough No.9/591408 Roger Wilkinson, Warrnambool, Victoria, Australia.

1959 ---G. DS.Slough 9/59???? Tassie John, Tasmania. Australia (“have E/H remains from A pillar forward). I have included this in tally & hope to include chassis No. --John Paas)

AUST ID’s (Heidelberg assembly) (small side parking pillar lights)

1960 --C.ID Aust. 19114672 (Series 6082) (Colour Angora white) THOUGHT TO BE THE FIRST AUST. BUILT ID IN EXISTENCE. Mark B. Melb.
1960 -–-D. DS.Slough No.9/60.David.Melbourne Australia
1960 ---I. DS.Slough No.9/601709 John Paas Bris. Australia Last Reg.N.Z.ED-4601
1960 ---?. ID.Aust 19119843 exists (location presently unknown. info given petermelb)
1960?---H ID (Aust) sedan (Michael& John Paas wrecked) years ago. Australia
1960?---H ID (Aust) sedan 19114889. series 6070. colour 2224320 (eng ser no. P180073944)(John Paas wrecked 1993 at Leigh Owen’s place as it was Leigh’s). Black with red&white upholstery. Brisbane Australia

(DS-CHEVRONS CENTRE OF GLOVE BOX (sept `60) 2nd dash)
-NYLON W/WASHER BOTTLE COMES IN JUNE `61
2nd(slopy)DASH SCREWS ON BOTTOM OF GLOVE BOX sept.'61)


1961 ---B. ID French? 119314341 sedan converted to Safari. petermelb.
1961 ---?. ID.Slough 9/7824 (eng no.19720461) exists (location presently unknown. info given petermelb)
1961 --*C. ID (Aust) sedan 19113713. (series 6058) (Classification No. 207 698) grey (last at Blue Mtns.Andrew Dodd) now owned by Patricia & Helmut Schutz and going to Scotland. Prev. owned by John Paas Australia
1961 ???. ID French sedan “clear” fibreglass roof” red? Was owned by Bob King “some time ago”.

1962 ---D. ID Safari Darren Sydney? Australia
1962 ---A? ID19P (Aust) sedan No. 19628653. series 6440 (Buckle classification 82-691). Colour 2224320 Curacao tan. William Hastie Brisbane,Australia
1962 ---B. ID (Aust) sedan green & silver last at Blue Mtns.? Australia was owned John Paas
1962 ***A. ID (Aust) sedan Salmon beige white roof 19727431 Tim Melbourne. Australia
1962 --D? ID (Aust) sedan Ted Melbourne. Australia
1962 ***A. ID (Aust) sedan 19728152 (series 6525) (classification102690) (colour 222 4323) Carl Bruce, NSW
1962 ***A ID (Aust) 19728153 Ferdi Melbourne. Australia ------IS THIS CORRECT (car is ’62 by Reynolds)
1962 ---C.ID (Aust) sedan bit scruffy looking green? Michael Gympie, Australia
1962?---F ID (Aust) sedan 193007766. series 12021 (Buckle classification 84 6048).Old reg. Black plates Qld PVK 802. A rustbucket sitting in a backyard in Rubyvale near Emerald, Qld.Australia William Hastie supplied details.
1962?---F ID (Aust) sedan 193010505. series 12067 Was sitting under trees at Wayne Mein’s place Guildford Victoria. Rustbucket Australia

2nd FRONT RUBBER STOPS BUMPER,(DS- MAJOR VENTILATON DIFFERENCE IN DASH sept'62)

1963 ***A ID (Aust) Vin and eng. no. 1920037753 (Serial no.7118345) Melb. pearl white with a sliding vinyl sun roof ( it is also for sale) 21st Aug ’04. (03)97236247 (0412)100159 Kilsyth. citds1967
1963? ---A? ID (Aust) sedan 19202466 bit scruffy looking green? Kimmo Hietala, Highvale, QLD
1963 ---D. ID (Aust) No.192000943. series 6655 (Buckle classification 84 6048).colour 2224320 Shane Leviston, Ballarat, Vic
1963 ---E. DS.Slough No.9-2790 Roger Wilkinson, Warrnambool, Victoria, Australia.
1963 ***A.DS French Cabriolet Ian Steele Maleny
1963 ***A ID (Aust)? safari Tim Melbourne. Australia
1963 ***A ID (Aust)? sedan Darren Sydney?
1963???? ID (Aust) sedan Andrew Mc Dougall Melbourne. Australia
1963???? ID (Aust) sedan Ted Cross Melbourne. Australia

1964***A. ID.French Safari (reg.no.NSW ANO-94S)Red
1964? ---F.ID (Aust) 193015445 series 12169 (ID19P) Michael Gympie, Australia
1964??--?. ID.Aust 193014304 exists (location presently unknown. info given petermelb)
1964 ---D? ID (Aust)? sedan Tim Melbourne. Australia
1964 ---?. ID.French Safari 3504324 (eng no.022.021221) exists (location presently unknown)
1964 ---?. ID.French Safari 3506558 (eng no.163000429) exists (location presently unknown)
1964 ***A. ID.19 Aust Vin. and eng. No.193003607 (Serial No.0090952641964??--?.
1964 ***A. ID.19 Aust. Fully rebuilt from the ground up in 1994/5 to compete in the Castrol Around Australia Time Trial in which it won it's class. Has twin carb Conought head. Body blue, roof (aluminium) white. =
1964 ---E. DS.Slough No.9/2987 ex Earl’s Court display stand. Ian Bywater Christchurch New Zealand.
1964 ---E.DS Belgian 4287442 Roger Wilkinson, Warrnambool Aust.

1966 ---?. ID.Aust 193015570 exists (location presently unknown. info given petermelb)
1966 xxJ?.ID French sedan 3684788 (eng no.3560168873) MAY NO LONGER EXIST
1966 --C.ID Aust. 193018733 (Colour Angora white (orig Red/Black interior) THOUGHT TO BE THE LAST AUST. BUILT ID IN EXISTENCE. Andrew Murray, Red Hill, Vic
 
Last edited:

ARCHRIVAL

Member
1962 ID19 vin 19313417 plate 62ID19 location Perth WA puce pink metallic black later interior otherwise original in slow process of re commissioning after some child pulled it apart
 

donat

Ashtray Polisher
Does anyone have any details on these ID's?

PD5F27JD1MIOE6IH_medium.jpg


Chassis # 19114730

...and this '64 ID

64ID19ozCGN109.jpg



Cheers
 

Leconte

Member
Theory on Heidelberg numbering

PD5F27JD1MIOE6IH_medium.jpg


Chassis # 19114730


Cheers

Hi Donat,

I am taking an interest in the codings of the Aussie IDs. I have a theory!! But need more data....

This white car is the one that is for sale for around $20,000 in Melbourne. It is owned by 2 brothers and was worked on by Robert Heka.

The body number is (as you report) 19 114 730. The "Series" number is 6078. The colour is 222 4322. I have a photo of the Continental & General plate. I believe it has a (much) later engine in it, it is registered as a 1962 model but on my reading of the numbers it is late 60 or early 61. Given the unreliable statistics of build and sales out of Heidelberg, that is about all you could say (unless those NSW registration figures help us).

After looking at all the engine numbers numbers for the Aussie IDs I can find, my theory is that the engine numbers were dispatched from France in no strictly ranged sequence at all, as none of them still around have anywhere near consecutive numbering, and surely they did not use a "smart" numbering system in France at the time.

However, if we focus on the "Series" number, I am starting to believe that this was actually a sequential build number out of Heidelberg in two distinct number series. My theory is that the first series is prefixed "6", with a 3 digit number that appears on the evidence to ascend nicely through the years models from low numbers (6058, 6070, 6078) to higher numbers through '62 /63' (6440, 6525, 6655). The later cars ('64/'65) seem to have a series prefix of 12, and the 3 digit numbers start again (12021, 12067, 12169, 12193). The last number (12193) is the one off my "1966" car "the last Heidelberg car" - it is actually a 1965 model as far as the Citroen model years go. Even the wording "Series" could be taken to refer to a sequential series?

I'd be very interested to ask a few other owners of Aussie IDs who have only reported their engine number to PLEASE have a look at the other details on their Continental & General Distributors plate and report them here. I will try to contact a few.

I have no idea at all what the Buckle "Classification numbers" mean - the few reported do not seem to have a pattern (not enough data). My understanding is that Buckle took the Hieldelberg cars from Continental & General and put their own badge on it for NSW (and perhaps QLD) sales - either over the top of the C&G plate or replacing it.

Calling Donat (for Harriet), Archrival (post above), Petermelb, Roger Wilkinson, and Helmet over there in the UK - can you please report in your Series numbers - if you still have a Continental & General plate on your car?

What this "could" mean is some numbers to support the total count of Heidelberg production - "IF" I were correct, we could see at least 655 cars produced in the first "6" series into 1963 somewhere, then at present up to 193 in the "12" series taking it through to '65 - possibly denoting the change in engine to the one with the harmonic balancer. Also, working only on supposition, I don't think Heidelberg worried at all about producing cars out of sequence from the engine stock. I'd take a punt that some junior or apprentice stamped up the plates to match the engine numbers in stock as they were received, entered them into a ledger book at the factory and then they were used "as they came to hand", not in strict sequential order. That is what the available evidence is telling me. I would love to speak to someone who was a production supervisor there. Does anyone know how the cars arrived - were they rolling chassis, or was the engine put in the chassis as Heidelberg - this seems a crucial point. If they were sent from France as a rolling chassis, you would expect batches of sequential number cars - surely they did not produce a RHD car at random. Or should we be scanning engine and other numbers for IDs across ALL RHD markets supplied from France? The mysteries deepen.

Does anyone car to comment on my "series" theory? It's just a "strawman" theory, waiting to be knocked about :)

A further question - did Heidelberg ever put out a second nose car with the last 81 BHP 5 bearing 1900 cc motor with the harmonic balancer? Mine (supposedly the last Heidelberg car) is the 3 bearing (71 or 75 BHP) motor with the harmonic balancer - i.e. the "second" iteration of the DS motor, not the 5 bearing one before the big change in Sep 66. I believe all post Sep 66 (LHM, 5 bearing motor...) ID19s would be from France production, not Heidelberg. But I'd love to know if Heidelberg put out an LHS car with the 5 bearing motor - like the August 66 ID19P of Jerome in France ( id19p.over-blog.com ).

Last point Donat - I now own the last Heidelberg car on your post (as "Mark B" of Melbourne) - not Andrew Murray any more - and not the first Heidelberg car.

Lots of interesting things for us to dwell on, in this outpost of the Citroën empire.

Cheers all,
Leconte
 
Last edited:

richo

VIP Sponsor
Hi Donat,


A further question - did Heidelberg ever put out a second nose car with the last 81 BHP 5 bearing 1900 cc motor with the harmonic balancer? Mine (supposedly the last Heidelberg car) is the 3 bearing (71 or 75 BHP) motor with the harmonic balancer - i.e. the "second" iteration of the DS motor, not the 5 bearing one before the big change in Sep 66. I believe all post Sep 66 (LHM, 5 bearing motor...) ID19s would be from France production, not Heidelberg. But I'd love to know if Heidelberg put out an LHS car with the 5 bearing motor - like the August 66 ID19P of Jerome in France ( id19p.over-blog.com ).

Lots of interesting things for us to dwell on, in this outpost of the Citroën empire.

Cheers all,
Leconte

No, the 1966 81hp engine was equipped only on the French production RHD cars.
Carburetor and inlet differ to the Aussie ID.
The 1966 model ID was only ever in 3 bearing engine guise. The 5 bearing engine was confined to the DS19 and DS21 in 1966.

The 1966 ID featured in ID19P overblog is a long stroke 3 (main) bearing engine, not a short stroke 5 bearing engine.
This car also features the 1966 ID19 only feature of clockwork brakes with later tri-axe driveshafts and 5 stud wheels rather than the ealrier single nut and bibax coupling.
1966 ID19s were unique in a number of features.
 
Last edited:

donat

Ashtray Polisher
Here's Harriet's chassis plate:

id62%20chassisplate%202.jpg


Your theory regarding the series number is not unique; Brian Wade (Slough40) also believes that these numbers on Heidelberg IDs correspond with the year made. I hope he sees your post and offers a reply. I think you could be on the money here.

I personally don't know with any certainty the answers to the bulk of your questions and theories - I'm merely an amateur compared to those who've been around them longer than I've been alive.

This census hasn't been altered since the first post on this thread. In the past I've sent emails and PMs regarding details I'm missing and have received little to no response regarding any additions and amendments. I thank those who have offered me updated info.

There's quite a few more cars which need to be added to the list (for example the '64 DS 19 Cabriolet currently under restoration in Brisbane) so I'm sorry if your car isn't here. Ideally it would be great to have a database on AF that can be edited by its members.

Great to see an interest in the history and preservation of the Heidelberg ID 19.
 

Leconte

Member
Hi Donat,

Thanks for the body plate photo. Your series number 6491 conveniently fits my theory, putting it nicley just before the entry of Carl Bruce:

1962 ***A. ID (Aust) sedan 19728152 (series 6525) (classification102690) (colour 222 4323) Carl Bruce, NSW

...which has a conveniently just higher series number (6525 versus harriet 6491, thus in my theory "produced" 34 cars after harriet) and a higher engine number 19728152 versus harriets 19727431.

The following one (and others) also fits the pattern nicely, on my theory produced 51 or so cars before harriet:

1962 ---A? ID19P (Aust) sedan No. 19628653. series 6440 (Buckle classification 82-691). Colour 2224320 Curacao tan. William Hastie Brisbane,Australia


I also note that to date, there are no duplicates in the series numbers we have captured. "If" this were truly a local sequential numbering indicator, that would give us so far (based on highest numbers of 6655 and 12193) somewhere between 800 and 900 Or possibly up to 1000 Aussie IDs produced (allowing for some higher numbers as yet or forever unknown). I think someone else postulated a similar number (compared to higher numbers in some publications e.g Presnell stating possibly 1400). It also appears that peak production must have been in 61 and 62 and probably tailing off quite significantly in 63, 64, 65 with perhaps a backlog of stock during 63 and 64 as well. I know i am forming a theory to fit the known facts, but I am finding this quite enjoyable so why not :crazy:

Cheers leconte
 

DS

Member
The two cars in the list attributed to me need info updates.

The 1961 ID19 French build Safari went to Bob Dircks some years ago. What it is doing now I have no idea. It was a near complete drivable car with bamboo trim. I really regret parting with that car. I have no record of numbers for the car.
A set of my pictures of when I got the car are here 1961 Citroen ID19 Safari - a set on Flickr

The other car is the one I still own which has a very wonderful fully rebuilt engine and I converted it to LHM. It is a 1963 Australian assembled car. It was sold new to an address in Hurstville so not far from where it now lives.
Pictures of it are here 1963 Citroen ID19 [current] - a set on Flickr
 

richo

VIP Sponsor
Mark,
If you're able to make sense of these numbers and give a workable proved explanation, the result would be fabulous. Especially to those of us who have an interest in the Aussie built cars, which I do.
Clearly you have a theory, which thus far is exciting.

Keep at it. Thank you.

cheers,
richo


Hi Donat,

Thanks for the body plate photo. Your series number 6491 conveniently fits my theory, putting it nicley just before the entry of Carl Bruce:

1962 ***A. ID (Aust) sedan 19728152 (series 6525) (classification102690) (colour 222 4323) Carl Bruce, NSW

...which has a conveniently just higher series number (6525 versus harriet 6491, thus in my theory "produced" 34 cars after harriet) and a higher engine number 19728152 versus harriets 19727431.

The following one (and others) also fits the pattern nicely, on my theory produced 51 or so cars before harriet:

1962 ---A? ID19P (Aust) sedan No. 19628653. series 6440 (Buckle classification 82-691). Colour 2224320 Curacao tan. William Hastie Brisbane,Australia


I also note that to date, there are no duplicates in the series numbers we have captured. "If" this were truly a local sequential numbering indicator, that would give us so far (based on highest numbers of 6655 and 12193) somewhere between 800 and 900 Or possibly up to 1000 Aussie IDs produced (allowing for some higher numbers as yet or forever unknown). I think someone else postulated a similar number (compared to higher numbers in some publications e.g Presnell stating possibly 1400). It also appears that peak production must have been in 61 and 62 and probably tailing off quite significantly in 63, 64, 65 with perhaps a backlog of stock during 63 and 64 as well. I know i am forming a theory to fit the known facts, but I am finding this quite enjoyable so why not :crazy:

Cheers leconte
 

Leconte

Member
No, the 1966 81hp engine was equipped only on the French production RHD cars.
Carburetor and inlet differ to the Aussie ID.
The 1966 model ID was only ever in 3 bearing engine guise. The 5 bearing engine was confined to the DS19 and DS21 in 1966.

The 1966 ID featured in ID19P overblog is a long stroke 3 (main) bearing engine, not a short stroke 5 bearing engine.
This car also features the 1966 ID19 only feature of clockwork brakes with later tri-axe driveshafts and 5 stud wheels rather than the ealrier single nut and bibax coupling.
1966 ID19s were unique in a number of features.

Richo,

As ever you are 100% right. I've had a brain fade over Jerome's blog, but he does talk a lot about 3 bearing versus 5 bearing. His is, indeed 3 bearing. Thanks for clarifying.

Regards,
leconte
 

Leconte

Member
The two cars in the list attributed to me need info updates.

.... The other car is the one I still own which has a very wonderful fully rebuilt engine and I converted it to LHM. It is a 1963 Australian assembled car. It was sold new to an address in Hurstville so not far from where it now lives.
Pictures of it are here 1963 Citroen ID19 [current] - a set on Flickr

Hi DS,

Re your 1963 car, which I think is thins census entry (correct?):

1963 ***A ID (Aust)? sedan Darren Sydney?

Very, very exciting for me to see the body plate photo on your flickr blog. It shows your 1963 details as:

Body/engine number 19 3 006 867, Series = 6999, Colour = 222 4988 (I like to put spaces in the engine numbers to "see" them better).

Series = 6999 !!! Interested spectators should check out the body plate picture on your flickr display. According to my theory, this would be the last car produced in the "6" series at Heidelberg, and until other evidence surfaces I reckon they then started producing under a "12" series numbering at perhaps 12000 or more likely 12001. We have 4 "later" cars with numbers in a "12" series, and at least 8 "earlier" ones in a "6" series. However currently claimed year dates do overlap between the two series, but given the vagaries of sales, registration and other like matters I can understand some degree of "fuzziness" around years of cars. No other Series numbering detected at present (apart from "6nnn" and "12nnn"). Can you tell me if your car has a harmonic balancer on the back of the engine (a disc to the rear of the timing case)?

So my theory now says there was likely 999 cars produced in the "6" series from start of production to somewhere in 1963 (do you have the sale details (date sold into Hurstville) or does the NSW sales register carry the "Series" numbers by any chance). However If this is true and if they then went to a "12" series, the production must have fallen off a cliff as my car (which is reputed to be a very, very late Heidelberg car and effectively a 1965 model year car) is only 12193. However that would give a total of nearly 1200 cars.

I see your Continental & General plate has been cut in half, the top half is missing. I have seen other cars where the top half was replaced like this with the Buckle named plate, obviously a (rather crude) marketing ploy of the time. Assume yours would have been the same.

Cheers for now,
leconte
 

Leconte

Member
Here's Harriet's chassis plate:



....I personally don't know with any certainty the answers to the bulk of your questions and theories - I'm merely an amateur compared to those who've been around them longer than I've been alive.

...Great to see an interest in the history and preservation of the Heidelberg ID 19.

Dear Donat (who pointed me to my car and started all this, not forgotten!),

No-one is more amateur-ish than I! However without the effort you and others put into constructing the census, no analysis and hence wild theories would be possible. So thanks.

Cheers,
leconte
 

richo

VIP Sponsor
Okay, let's take this a step further, if possible.
Are ALL the "12" series numbered cars fitted with the second style of dashboard and instruments?
The ID only received the harmonic balancer type engines late in the day, 1965, I surmise. This is only based on the engines I've owned with harmonic balancers, confused a little because a couple of them were DS engines.
I wonder what recorded dates of sales there might be for 12 series cars, if that record was kept. Hmm.

Mark, you're very definitely all over it!

"12" series must be the finale of the Parisienne. I have personal doubts as to the validity of the oft quoted number produced as being 1400 units. Seemingly less with your theory put into practice.
 

donat

Ashtray Polisher
All of this analysis points at the fact that a precious few have survived.

You'd think Paris would hold the answer as to which engine numbers were sent to Heidelberg (and elsewhere). Maybe Peugeot threw that info out while tossing out Birotors and SMs into the skip back in 1975? You'd hope not.

DS, looking at the images of the lost cars, I can't identify a single one. Perhaps some of these are languishing away at our very own Area 52 that's in country NSW.

Leconte, the Carl Bruce ID 19 (formerly mine, formerly John Paas's and before that the departed Tom Eyears who bought it in the late 1960s) has 1/2 a rectangular Buckle plate stuck across the top of the Commonwealth Motors if memory serves me - as does William Hastie's. And also, thanks for your kind words.
 

donat

Ashtray Polisher
All of this analysis points at the fact that a precious few have survived.

You'd think Paris would hold the answer as to which engine numbers were sent to Heidelberg (and elsewhere). Maybe Peugeot threw that info out while tossing out Birotors and SMs into the skip back in 1975? You'd hope not.

DS, looking at the images of the lost cars, I can't identify a single one. Perhaps some of these are languishing away at our very own Area 52 that's in country NSW.

Leconte, the Carl Bruce ID 19 (formerly mine, formerly John Paas's and before that the departed Tom Eyears who bought it in the late 1960s) has 1/2 a rectangular Buckle plate stuck across the top of the Commonwealth Motors if memory serves me - as does William Hastie's. And also, thanks for your kind words.
 

Leconte

Member
Hi Donat,

I have been in correspondence with Petermelb regarding two of the census entries attributed with his name. He says that the '64 ID19 and the '66 ID19 entries against his name are both French-built ID19's that he owned in NZ, and that the '66 one does not exist any longer but the '64 one may still be extant. Could you add this detail to these two entries please?

1964??--?. ID.Aust 193014304 exists (location presently unknown. info given petermelb)
1966 ---?. ID.Aust 193015570 exists (location presently unknown. info given petermelb)

Sadly (from my perspective) this means two less Heidelberg cars on the list, regardless of what survives or doesn't.

If Petermelb reads this post, perhaps he could confirm what I am saying on his behalf so it is cannot be taken as hearsay.

Cheers,
leconte


ps. While you are at it, to be accurate the entry on my car should be updated including being regraded from condition "C" to "D" or "E", depending on my mood. Probably "E" is more accurate right now. That is for the entry:

1966 --C.ID Aust. 193018733 (Colour Angora white (orig Red/Black interior) THOUGHT TO BE THE LAST AUST. BUILT ID IN EXISTENCE. Andrew Murray, Red Hill, Vic

Can I propose the new entry to replace this should more accurately be:

1965/1966 --E.ID Aust. 193018733 Series 12193 Colour 225 6761 (Colour Angora white (orig Red/Black interior) THOUGHT TO BE THE LAST AUST. BUILT ID IN EXISTENCE. Car is a 1965 model, may have been finally assembled and/or sold (and first registered) in 1966. Mark B (leconte), Melbourne

pps I just realised that my car is the only Aussie built ID19 on the list from either 1965 or 1966. Very sad! By the way I would consider a true 1966 ID19 model (pre-Sep 66) to have the 3 bearing motor, LHS and the 5 stud wheels. As Richo points out above, that version was the official French 1966 model, commencing production in France in September 1965 and lasting until September 1966, before the major change to the 5 bearing motor and LHM came in (still with the second nose) which forms the 1967 model year (citroen model years at this time started around August or September the prior calendar year). I now have a very strong belief that Heidelberg never produced a car with this "1966" configuration, most notably or easily detected by the 5 stud wheels instead of the 400mm centre bolt wheels. Can anyone contradict this with any other information?
 
Last edited:

helmut

New member
hi Leconte and Donat,
Our australian escapee to Scotland is still alive and running well. I am very interested in your theory about the series numbers, if it is correct then ours appears to be the oldest aussie ID still around at 6058! The body number (19113713) also seems quite low. I hope more will chip in with their series numbers which should help prove your theory.
We still have had to do no welding on the car (thank you wonderful australian weather) although it originally needed a lot of mechanical work as it had been used as a doner car and there was a fist sized hope in the sump! We have also had to rub it down and repaint it as the very thin coat of paint put on originally did not last the scottish weather.

cheers
Helmut
 

slough40

Member
Long stroke ds/id census

Greetings fellow long stroke enthusiasts.
I would like add my recently acquired ID19 to the list:
Body No:19628726
Series:6431
Colour:222 4320 (Curacao).Currently it is Fjord Blue (A BMW colour).
222 prefix in the colour number refers to the paint manufacturer which was BALM paints (British & Australian Lead Manufacturers) which was a subsidiary of Dulux.
Towards the end of the ID19s being built by C&G the paint No prefix changed from 222 to 225 and this is most probably because the paint manufacturer changed from BALM to SPARTAN paints.
The paint codes 222 6761 & 225 6761 are quite possibly Alpine White as this colour was being used on Peugeot 404s then being built.
It appears that paint code 222 4318 (Angora White) was discontinued at this time.
Regarding the numbering system used by Continental & General.
The Body No was simply the engine number which has been placed on the engine before it left Paris.
The Series number was Continental & General's way of recording what they had built (and imported).
When C&G began assembling ID19's they where already building Peugeot 403's and also a small number of the German NSU Prince.
They were also been importing fully built cars of other makes from both Europe & the US and all of these cars were given a number with the first digit being used to identify the make of vehicle.
For Peugeots the first number used was 7 and when 7999 was reached it was followed by 8.
I have seen a C&G ID plate fitted to a Heidelberg built Peugeot 403B and it is identical to the ones fitted to the ID 19's except that the first digit in the series number is a 7.
The prefix given to the ID19s was 6 so it can be assumed the 1 to 5 had already been used.
After 6999 was reached the next prefix used for the ID19 was 12 so once again it could be assumed that 7 to 11 were already in use.
It has been recorded that Series No 6999 was sold on the 6th of May 1964 so obviously the change from the prefix 6 to 12 occurred shortly before this time however as to exactly when is anyone's guess.
Regarding the model being referred to as a "PARISIENNE" it is most doubtful if this was a factory model designation.
According to a road test on a Paris built id19 published in "WHEELS" magazine in January 1961 the name "PARISIENNE" first appeared in an advertisement for the "new" id19 now being imported from Paris so as to disti
 

slough40

Member
Long stroke ds/id census

For some unknown reason the last part of my reply of a short time ago did not make it in print so here is the last part that was "lost".
The model designation "PARISIENNE" was first used in an advertisement place by a Melbourne dealer in early 1960 to distinguish the Paris built car from its Slough (UK) built cousins.
Other dealers (and C&G) must have liked the name because it was used for the next 6 odd years.
Regarding the Buckle Motors "Classification" plate all Citroens sold by Buckles going back to Traction Avants (and possibly earlier) had a Buckles Plate attached to the firewall.
Quite often the C&G ID plate on the id19s was partly obscured by the Buckles plate.
I have no idea how the Buckles numbering system worked as I have seen a number of 1951 11BLs with vastly different Buckles numbers.
Buckles also applied a small "Buckles"badge to the rear bumper of all the id/ds cars that they sold.

Brian W

'40 Light 15
'51 11BL
'62 id19
'77 GS PALLAS
'012 C4 Seduction:2cents::cheers:
 
Top