Can you please tell me how this car might fit in? It is a second nose ID19.
Longstroke ds/id census
- Thread starter donat
- Start date
If it was built as a 2nd nose car, then it would suggest that the 6 to 12 prefix change didn't correspond to the styling change, but maybe just kept on rolling along to 6999 and then to 12XXX.
I can report that 6044, perhaps earlier than 6058, exists, but is crashed, roofless and very rotten. There must be lower again, surely? The engine/chassis number on that car is 19114169, so that may confirm what was once suggested about the last engine into the store being taken out and used first, the car gaining the engine number as the chassis number.
A further note is that 6644 has the original front with early dash, while 6759 has the second front, but retains the original style of dash. So, the change in external style was somewhere after 6644 and before 6759. With more info, it should be possible to narrow it down, but it's obviously also possible to swap panels. In these two cases, my guess is they weren't swapped around, but even Slough panels ended up on some French and Heidelberg ID's.
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Dear Brian!!! DEAR Brian!
What gold plated information you provide! Thanks very much for this. It is like a jigsaw puzzle that so many people have got pieces of, and now it is coming together. The Series number finally makes some sense and also is potentially very useful to us.
The paint codes information (swap to Spartan) is also personally helpful to me, once again thank you. I have spent hours googling "6761" and paging through hundred of pages of entries trying to find anything helpful....
I also believe that the cars were produced at least a few months and probably up to 4, 5 or even 6 months ahead of when they actually got sold. And I have a feeling that in the later years, sales slowed and hence a longer backlog built up. Purely gut feel, but that would explain the low numbers of cars in the "12" series and also the decision to give up on the whole idea of assembly/manufacture (mostly assembly obviously) in Australia.
I need to digest this but I think the Longstroke cause has just taken a big step foward. Even your sale date of 6 May 1964 (19 years 11 months ago to the day) for car 6999 is very helpful. I'd take a punt and say that 6999 was likely to have run off the Heidelberg line in perhaps Feb 64 or even in '63, remembering the complete January shut-down that was a firm feature of 1960's industry and probably C&G.
According to Jon Presnell's Citroën DS book, the hand-me-down of the DS motor with the crankshaft dampener to the ID range only occurred in August 1964 (although he mentions elsewhere it was available as an option for export cars earlier than that). So I feel very lucky to have it in my car (12193), and to me this is sounding like only 193 or so cars (lets allow for a few more, maybe 250) were built in Heidelberg from BEFORE May '64 through to the end of production - prior to the model change that happened in France in Sep '65 (the '66 model year). Obviously, C&G would have had a stock of bodies, engines etc and worked their way through them (sales allowing), so I imagine they could easily be up to 6 months lagging between changes in France and here by the end of production - which explains my car being structurally dated prior to Sep 65 but always known (and almost certainly first registered) as a 1966 car.
Cheers,
leconte
Brian,
Those numbers to my reckoning make your car a very, very close sibling to William Hastie's 1962 ID 19 in the register, which is Series 6440, engine number 19628653 and also 222 4320 Curacao. Also, according to the register, found in Queensland!
Cheers again,
leconte
Leconte, see I told you Brian would know a thing or two about these things!
Have a received a few more chassis numbers of Heidelberg cars via email and I'll update the list shortly. Will need to follow Bruce H's lead and throw all this info up on a page for all and sundry to see. Hopefully this'll help keep these cars alive for a few more years yet.
Have a received a few more chassis numbers of Heidelberg cars via email and I'll update the list shortly. Will need to follow Bruce H's lead and throw all this info up on a page for all and sundry to see. Hopefully this'll help keep these cars alive for a few more years yet.
Hi Michael,
Our model (which is becoming more reliable as more data comes in) puts this car (your car or former car?) being produced probably late 1963 and sold probably early in 1964. Your number of 6932 puts it 67 cars before car 6999, which we have a fix on as first sold in May 1964, but it is known as a 1963 car (at least in the register). Do these guesses tally up with your knowledge of what the car was thought to be? Any and all history & information is really helpful at this point while we have the attention of the forum and so many good contributors.
In the census records, we also have car Series 6525 known as 1962, and car Series 6655 known as 1963. So we are making general progress with ranging things. I'd also be cautious about exactly HOW sequential even the series plates were coming off the line, depending upon whether the body plates were marked up and fitted to the car at the end of production or earlier, possibly before even assembly commenced. However if I were the production supervisor, I would not stamp and fit a body plate until I knew absolutely the car had rolled off the line, knowing that anything could go wrong and cause a swap out of the engine for any particular reason. So I think there is likely to be some practical reason the Series would be a pretty reliable indicator of sequence.
Cheers,
leconte
I have had 2 ID Heidelberg cars pass thru my hands on the way to another life in the ether
1. Body No 19724934 series 6462 colour 2224323
It was green in colour reg HPU310 (vic) 1962 Body/engine No 19724934 Serial No (reg Label 2388527) I am sure this is all correct.
2. Body No 193001330 series 6867 colour 2224320 This car was a salmon colour but maybe not be original and was bought as a spare parts car for No.1
I have the Continental & General, Distributors P L ,West Heidelberg, Brass plates for these both
1. Body No 19724934 series 6462 colour 2224323
It was green in colour reg HPU310 (vic) 1962 Body/engine No 19724934 Serial No (reg Label 2388527) I am sure this is all correct.
2. Body No 193001330 series 6867 colour 2224320 This car was a salmon colour but maybe not be original and was bought as a spare parts car for No.1
I have the Continental & General, Distributors P L ,West Heidelberg, Brass plates for these both
I dont' think the ID here is in the list ...
Chassis # 19114730
...and this '64 ID
Cheers[/QUOTE
Is the red one the ex-Bob King 1960 French ID19? Was John Faine involved with this car?
Bob King also had a late (1966?) Heidelberg car, light blue.
roger
When I bought ex Mike Neil's 1960 French ID, a swag of photos from the original owner were included. With these photos, letters and information told of his experiences driving through Asia , culminating with the car being hoisted onto the ship in Bombay and the arrival in Australia.
My point is; some photos included, were taken by him when he visited the Heidelberg factory in 1964. they clearly show the engine, out of the car being tested complete with cooling system attached. My guess therefore would suggest that the engines were separate from the body, on arrival to Australia.
I must get the details from the Heidelberg "64 ID that came from Hepburn Springs last year and the Heidelberg "60 ID that accompanied a 1960 French ID from a farm West of Bendigo.
They do seem to be coming out of the woodwork lately! Michael
My point is; some photos included, were taken by him when he visited the Heidelberg factory in 1964. they clearly show the engine, out of the car being tested complete with cooling system attached. My guess therefore would suggest that the engines were separate from the body, on arrival to Australia.
I must get the details from the Heidelberg "64 ID that came from Hepburn Springs last year and the Heidelberg "60 ID that accompanied a 1960 French ID from a farm West of Bendigo.
They do seem to be coming out of the woodwork lately! Michael
Hi Michael,
I would love to see those photos if you still had them. I'd also be happy to scan them for posterity on a borrow,& return basis if that was the best method. If you have interest in this, please send me a pm. I am actually scanning national library and museum mictoria sites looking for such material, and have drawn a blank so far. I am sure many others would be very interested as well. I would also love to see the numbers on a 64 car, i would predict a low number in the 12 series...
Cheers leconte
Shane is that the car you are rebuilding or your black one?
The sales journals in the CCCNSW library show a car one number off yours 19200 0944 sold new 2/5/1963
Am I going to confuse this thread too much if I list all 59 of the DS19 listed in these ledgers with their numbers and original sale dates?
It can't hurt. As long as he is happy to do so, Donat can go back and edit the first post as many times as he likes to make it the coherent listing. He has numerous bits of information to put together and some of the salvaged 2006-2010 material lost in the crash. Shane could make it a 'sticky' thread if need be.
Hi DS,
I think you are referring to the NSW sales ledgers. I would really like to see them For the purposes of historical information, pattern searching, and the sorts of theory development going on here, such raw data is invaluable and we leave a legacy for future enthusiasts in a public and accessible forum.
Donat started this specific thread, I would defer to his opinion being a relative newcomer.
Cheers,
leconte
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Guys, I'm going to (shortly) rejig the Longstroke census and split it up into sections:
HEIDELBERG ID 19
FRENCH DS
FRENCH ID
SLOUGH DS
SLOUGH ID
Out of all these categories, the Heidelberg ID is the one whose history still needs uncovering, appreciating and educating to the masses. The youngest example is now 47 years old!
It's obvious that there's more project cars than those on the road and more languishing wrecks than the both of them. I've noticed in NZ, the Light 15 is starting to lose interest with close to 10 cars currently for sale in the public arena. It's only a matter of time before the same thing happens here with the ID.... but will there be people out there wanting to buy them and nurture them? To quote Fairport Convention, but only time will show the wiser.
Any information pertaining to the census would certainly help build the list.
HEIDELBERG ID 19
FRENCH DS
FRENCH ID
SLOUGH DS
SLOUGH ID
Out of all these categories, the Heidelberg ID is the one whose history still needs uncovering, appreciating and educating to the masses. The youngest example is now 47 years old!
It's obvious that there's more project cars than those on the road and more languishing wrecks than the both of them. I've noticed in NZ, the Light 15 is starting to lose interest with close to 10 cars currently for sale in the public arena. It's only a matter of time before the same thing happens here with the ID.... but will there be people out there wanting to buy them and nurture them? To quote Fairport Convention, but only time will show the wiser.
Any information pertaining to the census would certainly help build the list.
OK see what you can do with this info. I've started with DS19 as there are many less of them than all the ID19. Please aknowledge that this info is from what I believe to be CITCO sales ledgers that are in the possesion of the CCCNSW.
DS19 ledger list
9/571091 20206065 13/6/1958
9/570894 20203922 14/2/1958
9/560202 20801270 21/3/1957
9/570660 20105423 Sold to War Veterans lottery
9/570872 20203656 31/10/1958
Paris Delivery – no numbers 24/2/1963
9/560254 20802184 5/4/1957
9/570485 20102159 26/7/1957
9/570731 20201771 15/10/1957
9/570753 20202422 24/10/1957
9/570924 20204276 6/2/1958
9/571073 2020683 18/4/1958
9/560159 20702253 8/2/1957
9/560154 20702279 14/2/1957
9/570464 20100389 14/8/1957
9/570307 20901378 13/9/1957
9/570892 20105452 3/8/1958
9/560256 20802191 4/7/1957
9/560163 20702262 5/2/1957
9/560160 20702249 8/2/1957
9/560257 20802192 16/5/1957
9/570874 20203763 22/1/1958
9/570945 20204959 5/3/1958
Ex demo 2010211 8/7/1958
9/571096 20205888 25/11/1958
9/560258 2080242 28/3/1957
9/560152 20702257 18/2/1957
9/570732 20201759 4/10/1957
9/570483 20101661 15/8/1957
9/570626 20105028 5/9/1957
9/571184 20302037 23/9/1958
3099415 19715931 27/7/1960
DS19 Paris del 19/12/1961
00123 99000141 4/5/1956 ‘56 LHD French Consul
9/570600 20105079 26/8/1957
9/5700602 20104990 5/9/1957
9/570750 20202300 6/12/1957
9/5700977 20204872 no date sold
Ex demo 20205136 15/9/1958
9/570482 20102158 31/7/1957
9/560155 20702282 15/2/1957
9/560158 20702247 22/3/1957
9/560204 20801274 26/4/1957
9/5700465 20904578 15/11/1957
9/571102 20205005 18/12/1958
DS19 Paris del. No numbers or date
9/601994 20709395 12/12/1960
9/560153 20702280 1/2/1957
9/570255 20702280 26/6/1957
9/570481 20102463 26/6/1957
9/570027 20102463 27/8/1957
560015 10/10/1957
9/5700666 20105423 no date
9/570971 20205195 9/10/1958
9/570953 20200842 29/11/1958
Paris del 19410573 29/1/1960
20204665 4/8/1958
Plus 4 other cars listed as Paris delivery with no numbers recorded.
DS19 ledger list
9/571091 20206065 13/6/1958
9/570894 20203922 14/2/1958
9/560202 20801270 21/3/1957
9/570660 20105423 Sold to War Veterans lottery
9/570872 20203656 31/10/1958
Paris Delivery – no numbers 24/2/1963
9/560254 20802184 5/4/1957
9/570485 20102159 26/7/1957
9/570731 20201771 15/10/1957
9/570753 20202422 24/10/1957
9/570924 20204276 6/2/1958
9/571073 2020683 18/4/1958
9/560159 20702253 8/2/1957
9/560154 20702279 14/2/1957
9/570464 20100389 14/8/1957
9/570307 20901378 13/9/1957
9/570892 20105452 3/8/1958
9/560256 20802191 4/7/1957
9/560163 20702262 5/2/1957
9/560160 20702249 8/2/1957
9/560257 20802192 16/5/1957
9/570874 20203763 22/1/1958
9/570945 20204959 5/3/1958
Ex demo 2010211 8/7/1958
9/571096 20205888 25/11/1958
9/560258 2080242 28/3/1957
9/560152 20702257 18/2/1957
9/570732 20201759 4/10/1957
9/570483 20101661 15/8/1957
9/570626 20105028 5/9/1957
9/571184 20302037 23/9/1958
3099415 19715931 27/7/1960
DS19 Paris del 19/12/1961
00123 99000141 4/5/1956 ‘56 LHD French Consul
9/570600 20105079 26/8/1957
9/5700602 20104990 5/9/1957
9/570750 20202300 6/12/1957
9/5700977 20204872 no date sold
Ex demo 20205136 15/9/1958
9/570482 20102158 31/7/1957
9/560155 20702282 15/2/1957
9/560158 20702247 22/3/1957
9/560204 20801274 26/4/1957
9/5700465 20904578 15/11/1957
9/571102 20205005 18/12/1958
DS19 Paris del. No numbers or date
9/601994 20709395 12/12/1960
9/560153 20702280 1/2/1957
9/570255 20702280 26/6/1957
9/570481 20102463 26/6/1957
9/570027 20102463 27/8/1957
560015 10/10/1957
9/5700666 20105423 no date
9/570971 20205195 9/10/1958
9/570953 20200842 29/11/1958
Paris del 19410573 29/1/1960
20204665 4/8/1958
Plus 4 other cars listed as Paris delivery with no numbers recorded.
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