Fuel Price

[1972Ren]

We are so close to a national disaster

But then again, so is most of planet. Japan has no natural energy sources so is completely reliant on imports. We have little petrol refining or oil, but we do have some of each. China cannot feed itself without food imports, but we can. Car production is off 25% roughly because of a lack of microchips, and more recently wiring looms from Ukraine. World society is so numerous and hooked into buying stuff, that it can only survive with complex trade interdependence. So everyone is close to a national disaster. Just ask them in Sri Lanka.

 

[Russell Hall]

The difference between the price of a barrel of oil, and the retail price of petrol, is not 'the refiner margin'.
Secondly, you have not factored in the effect of fx exchange rates. You are quoting oil in USD, but petrol in AUD.

Indeed. Because I that's how it's quoted and I can't be bothered converting for an internet thread. But in US dollars the same variation over the featured years is noted by U.S. commentators. And it is put down to the refiner margin. And shows the same rip off of the motorist.
World financial and trading relationships are in the air. Trade and the international financial system have become political weapons. Not sure where that'll go.
It has always been noted how vulnerable Japan is to trade disruptions and it would be hard pressed to follow an independent course. Hardly something to admire. The American oil sanctions of 1941 left them with no other course than to go to war. Postwar the international trade system has served them well as part of an American dominated Asia.
China does not follow the advice of western economists to live like the grasshopper and has secured long term supplies of cheap energy and stores food, so much so that 69% of world grain supplies are estimated to be in Chinese granaries.
Any observer of international relations could not fail to note Australia's involvement in an attempt to build a Pacific version of NATO which would involve us in any North Asian war. If such a conflict broke out the reliability of fuel supplies from Asian destinations would be as good as 1942. Currently it is not even certain we will have access to our own west coast gas that has been gifted to foreign owners. But no need to worry, our luck will probably hold.

 

[1972Ren]

Despite all the above, your figures do not support your claims
Refiners are not retails so the difference between the price of oil, and the price of a litre of petrol, is not 'the refiner margin'
The 'refiner margin' is the differnce between what a refiner pays for oil, and the wholesale price of refined products.
The refiners do not set that margin anyway. It is simply the difference between two competitive markets in which refiners deal, and over which they have no influence.
You are showing figures for single years, which is a fiction. Prices of petrol and oil, vary hugely within the space of a year.

 

[Kenfuego]

The old alexander refrain, and he was wrong repeatedly, trying to deflect from obvious cartel activity, withdrawing product to create artificial market shortages and higher prices. What genuine motorists consumers and sporting enthusiasts want is stable pricing and availability of product that does not cripple the enjoyment of our motoring.

Additionally there are people who must use transport as part of their profession or just simply to support others, as well as an army of volunteers who give their time and caring to others and the lowest fuel pricing is a major factor.

So for me I watch all aspects of fuel pricing and I hope the ACCC is doing the same to keep the rip offs to a minimum and hopefully deal with those who transgress or grossly exploit.

Nit picking and diversions just defend the indefensible, so as motorists and consumers lets just keep an eye on pump pricing, comparable differences between products/pricing. That will be the same with electricity and batteries cheaper more reliable and product stability will all help.

Some have been reminded that Bulldozers don't work well if there is no Diesel available or you make the price too high to use.

Ken

 

[Russell Hall]

Clearly I must defer top your greater knowledge of the oil industry. I will inform those ill informed commentators who write on American industry oil sites and use the term refiners margin to describe the difference between fuel and oil price of their error. The internet is a wonderful place where every drovers dog is an expert. The prices for fuel shown are the Australian average for the years mentioned as listed by Fleet Auto.. I stand by my post even if it doesn't suit lazy critics. Easily fixed, put up your own figures.
The uncomfortable truth of Driven's post remains. Australia has very low fuel reserves. If we ran out of diesel (like Sri Lanka) the ensuing collapse of food distribution and following social chaos would make the covid shortages seem like nothing.

 

[Whippet]

Hi.

I haven't looked to check, but I am confident the days reserve of fuel storage has been mentioned previously on the thread.

Problem No: 1, I don't believe that we have the storage capacity in tank farms on Australian soil to store what our target 40 days? is.

History - When I used to drive between Ballarat & Adelaide, there used to be a WW2 fuel storage somewhere south of the highway on the Vic side of the border.

Cheers.

 

[Russell Hall]

Oil can be stored long term, refined fuel not, so our run down of refinery capacity (effectively one in Qld and a worn out refinery in Geelong) means oil storage would be of limited value. The government response to fuel security was to pay for access to a small part of the US East Coast stockpile. Don't think they got the idea of national fuel security. That's a long way away. The events of the last two years has challenged the idea that the world is a safe global market with no need for nations to be concerned with local supply storage. Now all the world looks to its energy and food security with Europe beset with shortages of both. America keeps a months supply of oil as security although the military probably has its own extensive storages. As we have seen supply chains can be disrupted by absolutely unexpected events and are not easy or quick to restore. Australian food production security but not distribution is assured. Prudence would suggest we have a fuel supply of at least three or four weeks on land.

 

[Kenfuego]

In an Emergency (ask Mr Dan Andrews about that) Governments can step in and requisition all distributed supplies and years ago there was a contingency plan to do just that, some servo's were designated as local emergency suppliers and particular shell sites had bigger than usual underground tanks, and in the then shortages, for a start those were restricted to access by essential workers, like police, Fire and Ambo staff to get fuel. Then the public were included, using the odds and evens number plates for alternative days where you could purchase limited fuel. As far as I know most of the designated larger than usual strategic ones like the Shell Super sites have long gone. A couple of years ago there were moves to increase and ensure access to a greater number of storage tanks to open up competition and access to the on shore storage tanker farms. That seems to have faded when the USA offered access to their strategic reserve and that may be just words of comfort if the proverbial hits the fan.

Ken

 

[Dijon16]

. Then the public were included, using the odds and evens number plates for alternative days .

Ken

Just thinking out loud here. With the advent of choose-your-own combination, there´s plenty of number plates without any numbers, just letters or whole words. I wonder how they would fare in such a situation?

 

[Kenfuego]

Just thinking out loud here. With the advent of choose-your-own combination, there´s plenty of number plates without any numbers, just letters or whole words. I wonder how they would fare in such a situation?

Easy, you had to apply listing your motor car plate and it would be allocated as odd or even. No real problem there. Much as I dislike such government regulation of our lives - I have always advocated that any emergency decree or use of regulations be temporary and subject to a sunset clause i.e. date of expiration.

Politicians seem to love ruling by regulation, rather than going back and openly debating need for extensions to laws that restrict what the public (their voters) can do. Regulation creep is quite insidious. And motorists have always been major tax contributors and subject to regulation control. But that is getting a bit off topic for here.

Ken

 

[Greenpeace]

Just thinking out loud here. With the advent of choose-your-own combination, there´s plenty of number plates without any numbers, just letters or whole words. I wonder how they would fare in such a situation?

Would be easy to just go (for your last digit) "odd number or first half of the alphabet" on one day and "even number or second half of the alphabet" on the next day?

 

[Dijon16]

I think that you are attributing greater numeracy and literacy skills to the general public than is warranted.

 

[Kim Luck]

What is the last number of your VIN? How hard is it, really?

 

[Greenpeace]

With all this talk of rationing, a day off work and a break in the rain, I figured I'd better burn some fossil fuel while I can.
I do believe under a number plate scheme that certain number plates should be allowed to fuel up every day.

 

[Dijon16]

What is the last number of your VIN? How hard is it, really?

Who is going to enforce it? How will the guy directing the queue, or anyone else in the queue, know what your VIN is? I cannot see that everyone is going to get out of the queue and peer into your windscreen. More than half of them would not know what a VIN is, or where it is.

In the 80s I was queued up at the local BP servo for rationing. It was a long queue that went down a hill, so everyone rolled a car length at a time.

This guy drove past the whole queue and into the servo. Retribution was swift. Half a dozen macho men surrounded him. He gets out of the car in his BP uniform and says in a nice loud voice to the effect ´´I do not mind joining your queue, but none of you will get served until I start work here.´´

 

[Kim Luck]

If it came to an emergency fuel situation I'm sure everyone would immediately know all about VIN numbers, if they were required to allocate fuel. It's not about convenience, it's a rationing system!

 

[Greenpeace]

Who is going to enforce it? How will the guy directing the queue, or anyone else in the queue, know what your VIN is? I cannot see that everyone is going to get out of the queue and peer into your windscreen. More than half of them would not know what a VIN is, or where it is.

He'd have to stay logged in on the transport "rego check" website and punch each rego number in to get the VIN. Not all vehicles on the road have a windscreen visible VIN, try reading some of the motorcycle ones.
My Morris J van only had a chassis number, but you could read it if you lay on your back with one of those little inspection mirrors between the body and the chassis up near the back spring hanger.
Who'd have thought separating odd numbers and A to M, from even numbers and N to Z would be so difficult?

 

[Kim Luck]

With all this talk of rationing, a day off work and a break in the rain, I figured I'd better burn some fossil fuel while I can.
I do believe under a number plate scheme that certain number plates should be allowed to fuel up every day.

View attachment 204942

For those for whom the odds and evens number plate system is the infallible tool, may we present "SUXGAS"!

 

[Greenpeace]

For those for whom the odds and evens number plate system is the infallible tool, may we present "SUXGAS"!

No system is infallible, but why make it harder than it needs to be?
I have 12 registered vehicles so I'm pretty confident I have a number plate or VIN for every occasion, whatever system they go with, retarded or otherwise.

 

[Kim Luck]

No system is infallible, but why make it harder than it needs to be?
I have 12 registered vehicles so I'm pretty confident I have a number plate or VIN for every occasion, whatever system they go with, retarded or otherwise.

If you fill them all up now you won't have to use either method......