haha Simon - perhaps I should clarify by saying I'm not coming on the forum to tell people that my gearbox is working perfectly - as if anybody would care. I'm asking for specific information about a Lucas product's suitability to help get longer life out of this box. Let me put it another way - if it ain't broke, you can't fix it even if you want to, but you can undertake preventative maintenance such as the more frequent oil changes that Greg C recommends from his experience. I'll take your comment to mean you have nothing to add in terms of what might extend the life beyond the 'official' service procedures? Perhaps I should have asked Shanadoo in a PM since he seems to have experience with these types of boxes and that Lucas products will help.
C5 Aisin Warner 6 speed automatic
- Thread starter fritzelhund
- Start date
haha Simon - perhaps I should clarify by saying I'm not coming on the forum to tell people that my gearbox is working perfectly - as if anybody would care. I'm asking for specific information about a Lucas product's suitability to help get longer life out of this box. Let me put it another way - if it ain't broke, you can't fix it even if you want to, but you can undertake preventative maintenance such as the more frequent oil changes that Greg C recommends from his experience. I'll take your comment to mean you have nothing to add in terms of what might extend the life beyond the 'official' service procedures? Perhaps I should have asked Shanadoo in a PM since he seems to have experience with these types of boxes and that Lucas products will help.
That's my point - don't add anything
Regular oil changes would be my advice too, however most people only seem to change the oil when the gearbox has already developed an issue.
But try to prevent it from breaking in the future.
Why be proactive when you can bleat on the internet instead?
I'm the Chairman of the VACC auto trans category and we are always thinking of ways to educate the the public to regularly change the transmission oil.Thats the only way to prolong the life of the transmission.
After replacing the valve body with an OEM new one (from the UK, same supplier as Addo used IIRC) my AM6 has been behaving perfectly.
Before replacing the valve body I had 'changed' the fluid twice (but not prior to 80,000km) and tried additive from Lucas, which really seemed to do little more than delaying onset of shifting problems as the fluid heated up. Obviously the wear and tear in the valve body (bores?) was already underway before the fluid was changed.
Shame that Citroen don't recommend sensible fluid change intervals, but I guess Citroen is not the only guilty party - the 'sealed for life' transmission caper seems to be little more than a BS story to sneak through EU emissions regulations. They know most autos will get through the warranty period before gear changes go bad.
Research told me it was perfectly fine to use non-Citroen fluid (I used Toyota fluid, the one they use in the same gearbox). Topped up an extra litre after setting level at 74º. If I'd followed the Citroen refill procedure I would have to wait for it to cool to 60º and then just top up half a litre. Then told the thing it had new fluid, set neutral position, persuaded it to do a 'full re-program' and went for a lovely drive.
In between dodging wombats I was watching the gearbox temp top out around 81º with no hint of shifting problems. Cheap repair, valve body cost around $700 landed from UK, fluid was around $80 and I have sufficient for another fluid change in 20,000km from now.
New Pirellis go on today so hopefully we'll enjoy many miles more in this car. I like it a lot!
P.S. I also just want to say thanks to those who have contributed good info on these Aisin-Warner gearboxes over recent years - especially to Addo, but also thanks to others. Anybody contemplating a DIY valve body change in the AM6 box, feel free to PM me for more details.
Before replacing the valve body I had 'changed' the fluid twice (but not prior to 80,000km) and tried additive from Lucas, which really seemed to do little more than delaying onset of shifting problems as the fluid heated up. Obviously the wear and tear in the valve body (bores?) was already underway before the fluid was changed.
Shame that Citroen don't recommend sensible fluid change intervals, but I guess Citroen is not the only guilty party - the 'sealed for life' transmission caper seems to be little more than a BS story to sneak through EU emissions regulations. They know most autos will get through the warranty period before gear changes go bad.
Research told me it was perfectly fine to use non-Citroen fluid (I used Toyota fluid, the one they use in the same gearbox). Topped up an extra litre after setting level at 74º. If I'd followed the Citroen refill procedure I would have to wait for it to cool to 60º and then just top up half a litre. Then told the thing it had new fluid, set neutral position, persuaded it to do a 'full re-program' and went for a lovely drive.
In between dodging wombats I was watching the gearbox temp top out around 81º with no hint of shifting problems. Cheap repair, valve body cost around $700 landed from UK, fluid was around $80 and I have sufficient for another fluid change in 20,000km from now.
New Pirellis go on today so hopefully we'll enjoy many miles more in this car. I like it a lot!
P.S. I also just want to say thanks to those who have contributed good info on these Aisin-Warner gearboxes over recent years - especially to Addo, but also thanks to others. Anybody contemplating a DIY valve body change in the AM6 box, feel free to PM me for more details.
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Well, when I bought my C5 X7 at 105km I bargained with the dealer and any servicing they would pay 50% of. After the timing belt, water pump, coolant, pulleys and tensioners I also go EUROSERVE to do a service on the transmission. Talking to the mechanic he mentioned that Citroen say the box is sealed for life but Puegeot have a service kit for the same transmission. Now at 130,000km and zero issues.
I use a local Future Automotive for minor services and take it to Euroserve for major jobs. FYI I bount this C5 from a Volkswagen dealer and the comment from the sales man was that the Citroen would be more reliable than the VW....and he's a factory trained technician from the UK>
Hmmm....
I use a local Future Automotive for minor services and take it to Euroserve for major jobs. FYI I bount this C5 from a Volkswagen dealer and the comment from the sales man was that the Citroen would be more reliable than the VW....and he's a factory trained technician from the UK>
Hmmm....
Interesting Nigel, do you know what Euroserve did in their service on your transmission?
I wonder what the Peugeot service kit for the transmission includes...perhaps seals for the filler & drain plugs along with some fluid? Hmmmm...I might have to ask a pug mechanic about this.
Hi Guys,
First there was the DS Borg warner, and lots of problems. I would say there wasn't a DS that got through warranty (12 months) without the gearbox removed at least once. Some were 2 & 3 times.
In hindsight, most of the problems was poor assembly by Borg Warner?
Citroens autos after that were ZF, and very reliable. Problems towards the end of their life was generally traced back to never changing the oil.
PSA , Renault & Siemens thought they could build a better box, so enter the AL4. This isn't a bad box like the BW, but it was eventually used with engines in the C5 beyond its capacity. In these situations it was very problematic, though some units have given a very healthy life. Not changing the oil certainly added to the problems
The present auto is the 6 speed Aisin (not Aisin Warner). This is an excellent unit and is generally very trouble free, so long as you change the the oil. Yes there are some that have valve body problems, and it is an expensive fix, but they mostly give a very trouble free life.
Our old 2006 C5 HDI has now done 288,000 ks, and the gearbox hasn't missed a beat, but the oil is changed regularly, and filled with Nulon Multi purpose Full Synthetic AT oil only.
My experience with the AM6 gearbox and the valve body problems is that a reconditioned valve body doesn't resolve the problem. Continental Cars did use a few reconditioned units, but continued to give problems, so they will only use a new valve body now.
I think that says it all!
One thing to note is that if you drain the oil through the level / drain plug, you will only drain about 3 litres. I've seen where some transmission repaired suck the oil out, but i'm a bit skeptical that you can drain the entire contents?
Best regards,
Greg
First there was the DS Borg warner, and lots of problems. I would say there wasn't a DS that got through warranty (12 months) without the gearbox removed at least once. Some were 2 & 3 times.
In hindsight, most of the problems was poor assembly by Borg Warner?
Citroens autos after that were ZF, and very reliable. Problems towards the end of their life was generally traced back to never changing the oil.
PSA , Renault & Siemens thought they could build a better box, so enter the AL4. This isn't a bad box like the BW, but it was eventually used with engines in the C5 beyond its capacity. In these situations it was very problematic, though some units have given a very healthy life. Not changing the oil certainly added to the problems
The present auto is the 6 speed Aisin (not Aisin Warner). This is an excellent unit and is generally very trouble free, so long as you change the the oil. Yes there are some that have valve body problems, and it is an expensive fix, but they mostly give a very trouble free life.
Our old 2006 C5 HDI has now done 288,000 ks, and the gearbox hasn't missed a beat, but the oil is changed regularly, and filled with Nulon Multi purpose Full Synthetic AT oil only.
My experience with the AM6 gearbox and the valve body problems is that a reconditioned valve body doesn't resolve the problem. Continental Cars did use a few reconditioned units, but continued to give problems, so they will only use a new valve body now.
I think that says it all!
One thing to note is that if you drain the oil through the level / drain plug, you will only drain about 3 litres. I've seen where some transmission repaired suck the oil out, but i'm a bit skeptical that you can drain the entire contents?
Best regards,
Greg
Hi Guys,
First there was the DS Borg warner, and lots of problems. I would say there wasn't a DS that got through warranty (12 months) without the gearbox removed at least once. Some were 2 & 3 times.
In hindsight, most of the problems was poor assembly by Borg Warner?
Citroens autos after that were ZF, and very reliable. Problems towards the end of their life was generally traced back to never changing the oil.
PSA , Renault & Siemens thought they could build a better box, so enter the AL4. This isn't a bad box like the BW, but it was eventually used with engines in the C5 beyond its capacity. In these situations it was very problematic, though some units have given a very healthy life. Not changing the oil certainly added to the problems
The present auto is the 6 speed Aisin (not Aisin Warner). This is an excellent unit and is generally very trouble free, so long as you change the the oil. Yes there are some that have valve body problems, and it is an expensive fix, but they mostly give a very trouble free life.
Our old 2006 C5 HDI has now done 288,000 ks, and the gearbox hasn't missed a beat, but the oil is changed regularly, and filled with Nulon Multi purpose Full Synthetic AT oil only.
My experience with the AM6 gearbox and the valve body problems is that a reconditioned valve body doesn't resolve the problem. Continental Cars did use a few reconditioned units, but continued to give problems, so they will only use a new valve body now.
I think that says it all!
One thing to note is that if you drain the oil through the level / drain plug, you will only drain about 3 litres. I've seen where some transmission repaired suck the oil out, but i'm a bit skeptical that you can drain the entire contents?
Best regards,
Greg
First there was the DS Borg warner, and lots of problems. I would say there wasn't a DS that got through warranty (12 months) without the gearbox removed at least once. Some were 2 & 3 times.
In hindsight, most of the problems was poor assembly by Borg Warner?
Citroens autos after that were ZF, and very reliable. Problems towards the end of their life was generally traced back to never changing the oil.
PSA , Renault & Siemens thought they could build a better box, so enter the AL4. This isn't a bad box like the BW, but it was eventually used with engines in the C5 beyond its capacity. In these situations it was very problematic, though some units have given a very healthy life. Not changing the oil certainly added to the problems
The present auto is the 6 speed Aisin (not Aisin Warner). This is an excellent unit and is generally very trouble free, so long as you change the the oil. Yes there are some that have valve body problems, and it is an expensive fix, but they mostly give a very trouble free life.
Our old 2006 C5 HDI has now done 288,000 ks, and the gearbox hasn't missed a beat, but the oil is changed regularly, and filled with Nulon Multi purpose Full Synthetic AT oil only.
My experience with the AM6 gearbox and the valve body problems is that a reconditioned valve body doesn't resolve the problem. Continental Cars did use a few reconditioned units, but continued to give problems, so they will only use a new valve body now.
I think that says it all!
One thing to note is that if you drain the oil through the level / drain plug, you will only drain about 3 litres. I've seen where some transmission repaired suck the oil out, but i'm a bit skeptical that you can drain the entire contents?
Best regards,
Greg
Jeez Greg if you're gonna get pedantic, I'll get pedantic-er. It's Aisin AW, not Aisin. There, got that sorted.
Sorry I thought I said it wasn't Aisen Warner... Am I wrong?
Their name:
Aisin AW (Formerly Aisin-Warner; Joint Venture with BorgWarner terminated in 1987) — automatic transmissions
Best regards,
Greg
Aisin AW (Formerly Aisin-Warner; Joint Venture with BorgWarner terminated in 1987) — automatic transmissions
Best regards,
Greg
With my C5 X7 up to 80k km, my regular french mechanic would not change the gearbox oil, instead referring me to the well-known and by all accounts very good local auto specialist.
They asked if I wanted a change or a flush. I said that I would get back to them.
I can understand the difference, and assume that only a change is needed, which said would be about $250. Is it a DIY job? How hard can it be that an actual french car specialist mechanic would not do it?
They asked if I wanted a change or a flush. I said that I would get back to them.
I can understand the difference, and assume that only a change is needed, which said would be about $250. Is it a DIY job? How hard can it be that an actual french car specialist mechanic would not do it?
It's not that hard a job at all really. Some basic tools required, including a 17mm hex (mega allen key). Hoist or ramps and some minor farnarkling.
There's a good French how-to for changing the AM6 at https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2013/05/28/tutorial-vidange-bva/tutorial-vidange-bva.pdf. Electroboy translated it on AF a while ago, but his link now appears to be dead.
I think where it starts to get hard for the mechanic is deciding which oil to put in it. If, as some suggest, you only use the genuine Citroen product then the price would send the customer reeling! (especially if flushed). To avoid this, they may use one of the generic brands. But, assuming you don't already have problems with your transmission and they subsequently develop, how does the mechanic respond to why they didn't use genuine oil. If you already have problems and the generic oil doesn't help, then you will be left wondering if the genuine oil would be have been better?
Then there is the issue of whether they just change 3 of the 7 litres of oil or try to get most of the 7 litres flushed out. Obviously the former has price advantages but if the oil contains contaminates, then the latter would be more practical.
Spoke with the local auto transmission specialist at length only last week and basically he left choice of oil to me and he gave no assurances that jerky gear down-changes would be fixed by flushing. It could ultimately need a new valve body (problem started at 40k), in which case it would be just "good money chasing bad".
I can understand a mechanic's indifference.
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i dont know a great deal about the 6 speed auto but I have had to replace valves bodies in 2 customers cars in the last 12 months to fix shifting issues
the valve body metal is about as hard as soft cheese and the spools have signs of wear at 160k, i think the best way to make them last is to change the oil every 60k and drive it in manual mode so it doesn't do so many gear changes just to get to the shops and back
the valve body metal is about as hard as soft cheese and the spools have signs of wear at 160k, i think the best way to make them last is to change the oil every 60k and drive it in manual mode so it doesn't do so many gear changes just to get to the shops and back
I have changed mine twice so far at 60kkm intervals. The problem with a change is that you only change 2 litres of the total 9 or so litres in the box. So I actually did it twice each time so the I got half new oil into the box. The original oil was pretty awful at 60kkm.
If I were you I would go for a flush job as that should change out all the old oil and then get you new fresh oil going through your valve blocks. I have used Penrite Fully synth ATF as have many others and so far so good at 150kkm. The improvement in smoothness after the first change at 60kkm was marked.
Cheers, Ken
If I were you I would go for a flush job as that should change out all the old oil and then get you new fresh oil going through your valve blocks. I have used Penrite Fully synth ATF as have many others and so far so good at 150kkm. The improvement in smoothness after the first change at 60kkm was marked.
Cheers, Ken
Boy Younger has 2000 model Commodore, 270,000ks and never had a auto oil change and never even needed a top up. Asked me just before Xmas to do a service on the trannie. Told him he was dreaming. It has no problems, changes/drives as good as it ever did, so what do you think would happen if the oil and filter were changed at this mileage.
I guess it's human nature which makes people wait until problems arise in a mechanical component and orders them to spend a week or more discussing it before throwing multiple oil changes at the thing in the oft mistaken belief that that will rectify the problem and return it to 'as new'. Whereas to quote 'The problem is not the problem, the problem is the attitude to the problem'.
These days it's common to observe a problematic or even complete negative attitude toward preventative maintenance, so most can understand any mechanics reluctance to the request of an auto oil change.
It's always best to decline and pass any occurring after problems on to some brave soul better equipped and willing to risk all.
A little tip if you're broken down on the road?. Remember to completely flatten the battery before calling the AAA.
I guess it's human nature which makes people wait until problems arise in a mechanical component and orders them to spend a week or more discussing it before throwing multiple oil changes at the thing in the oft mistaken belief that that will rectify the problem and return it to 'as new'. Whereas to quote 'The problem is not the problem, the problem is the attitude to the problem'.
These days it's common to observe a problematic or even complete negative attitude toward preventative maintenance, so most can understand any mechanics reluctance to the request of an auto oil change.
It's always best to decline and pass any occurring after problems on to some brave soul better equipped and willing to risk all.
A little tip if you're broken down on the road?. Remember to completely flatten the battery before calling the AAA.