2CV Chassis Replacement

[gibgib]

31st Mar 2006, 09:34 AM

By DoubleChevron:

Quote:

Originally Posted by raver This thread has been very intriguing and informative so far, the way the firewall skin was replaced was outstanding :wink2: , now if only someone would do a similar thread but on a GS/GSA instead.........:wink2:

The GS is a different beast. The reason this work is performed with (relitive :crazy: ) simplicity on a 2cv is it's the old tried and simple standard of "Chassis --all the strength" .... "Body --decoration on top" type of car.

You can change the chassis and in doing so basicaly give the whole car a sound new structure to sit on. The body is very simple, unlike the GS and CX where the body actually give the whole car it's strength. The monoque structures are never easy to repair in this way. It can be done, but financially unless you have a 2cv (that are worth good $$$$) it's simply not feasable to restore a GS .... You could easily sink $10,000grand into the GS and it'll be lucky to sell for $1500bux when finished

You best option is to find a very sound straight car, blow a coat of paint over it, make the engine oil proof and drive it A major full blown restoration simply wouldn't be worth it (unless you intend to keep the car for the next 10years .... If that's the case, spend the $$$, in 10years you would have lost multiples of that in depreciation on a modern car).

Gibgib, are you coming down to the Cit-in ??

seeya,
Shane L.

 

[gibgib]

Weekend of 1/4 - 2/4

2nd Apr 2006, 09:12 PM

Great weather for all types of outdoor activities up to & including spray painting &/ or bogging.

While I made up a make shift spray booth, Chris finished off a few panels to be given their first hits of under coat/ filler.

Although we did not use the recommended gravity fed gun, the results were impressive from the suction type gun we had used for the etch.
The hard work from the preceding weeks really showed on this stage. Most panels have a uniform & very flat & smooth surface & need only sanding & a further coat to finish off.

I had to leave early but Chris kept at it & covered all prepared panels in undercoat.

Today, in the arvo, Chris sprayed a guide coat on all undercoated panels (black) so we started block sanding.
I found this tedious & boring but the results were quick as the undercoat sanded very nicely.

The object of the game was to remove all the black guide coat using a block (sponge) with 340 grit, without going through to metal.
Against what we read on aussiefrogs, we dry sanded as opposed to wet sanding. The guy (Dave) doing the final 2 Pack paint recommends it to be done this way.
Chris did you want to elaborate on this?

The pictures of the door shows guide coat, sanding (showing highs in lighter grey) guide coat remains in the lows. Because the undercoat is sprayed on thick, the idea is to leave it thick where a low needs to be filled & if necessary, lower the surrounding area (whole panel) to the same level as the low.

 

[gibgib]

2nd Apr 2006, 09:17 PM

By DoubleChevron:

Hi Gerry,

how'd dry rubbing going ... Interesting, I'm not sure how it's possible without immediatly clogging the sandpaper

I'd sure be interested in trying it sometime Did you finish off with 600, 340 sure is abrasive paper

seeya,
Shane L.

 

[gibgib]

2nd Apr 2006, 09:23 PM

Hi Shane,
It didn't clog up, compressed air persueded the paper to get clean when it began to drag.


Here's Chris to say a few words re that one.......

 

[gibgib]

2nd Apr 2006, 09:46 PM

By GreenBlood:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoubleChevron Hi Gerry, how'd dry rubbing going ... Interesting, I'm not sure how it's possible without immediatly clogging the sandpaper I'd sure be interested in trying it sometime Did you finish off with 600, 340 sure is abrasive paper seeya, Shane L.

Shane, weird hey?? The guy next door to us at work (Dave) restores cars, that's all they do, no general panel work. Always a great collection of interesting old beasts in his shed.

This is the guy Gerry has teed-up to do the final coats in 2 pack. I've spent a bit of time talking with him and he was good enough to run through the way they go about things, as Gerry describes above he (Dave) will block sand dry using a 340grit, he says it's equivilent to around a 600 if you were wet sanding?? The paper being so course didn't clog that quickly and a tap knocked the dust out, a quarter sheet was good for a panel or two. After the 340 dry he (Dave) used a black powder in a plastic tub applied to the panel with a sort of ladies compact type pad, this acted like a guide coat and he then dry sanded with 600grit. The end result appeared as smoth as a babies bottom and ready for top coats. These guys have all the lovely gear, the compressor lines go through a cooling device, several filter etc. so no moister hits the panel during painting.

We took a few panels to the first stage today and I'm thrilled with the results, we've spent a great deal of time on the doors, the panels are thin and you can clearly see the support frame in the surface on the face, careful bogging sanding bogging and re-sanding has paid off, there is now very little work to do to get them to the final paint stage.

Another tip Dave passed on was to avoid the single part stop putty, instead go for the the 2 part polyester putty, it sets hard in 10 minutes or so ready for sanding and won't be re-activated by the top coat - a problem that can happen with the single part putty.

Cheers
Chris

 

[gibgib]

2nd Apr 2006, 10:21 PM

By addo:

I suspect the black powder was a fine carbon. It wouldn't leach through any finishes.

Dry sanding, from the tech manual:

2 pics (don't have)

 

[gibgib]

5th Apr 2006, 09:01 PM

I haven't been doing much with the 2CV this week as I am in Training for work related stuff until next week.
I did manage to spray paint the seat rails black tonight, they all have 2 coats.


The cardboard I was using to protect the driveway has now been ripped up & floor cleaned up. I'm not expecting too much more dust & crap from now 'til finish.

I think Chris has been working on a panel or 2 in the evenings but he hasn't invited me over to help

Have a geezer at what Peter is up to in Newcastle :
http://www.2cvclubaustralia.org.au/f...topic.php?t=51

 

[gibgib]

5th Apr 2006, 09:15 PM

By downunderyank:

And I thought your's looked bad! Thanks again for the help this weekend Gerry, I know you're busy. It sounds like you came out of it well though, ending up with a free Citroen! No good deed goes unpunished.:joker:

 

[gibgib]

5th Apr 2006, 09:22 PM

By GreenBlood:

Quote:

Originally Posted by downunderyank ending up with a free Citroen!

...sshhhhh :trouslap:

Not much to report Gerry, with the weather as it is I've left sanding alone... Should be fine and sunny again on Friday, if your not doing anything give me a hoy around 3:30pm

Cheers
Chris

 

[gibgib]

8th Apr 2006, 10:06 PM

Getting close now!

Chris & I worked on more sanding & use of stop putty in some of the deeper but not real deep lows. Tomorrow arvo we should have nearly all the panels hit with their (hopefully) last coat of undercoat with only 3 panels lagging behind by 2 steps.
Hopefully next weekend we can start on the body & 2 pack paint the following week!

 

[gibgib]

17th Apr 2006, 08:39 PM

No updates for a while!

There were a couple of developments over this Easter break. The body has been moved & a few more panels have been guide coated & sanded.
Panels look the same so it's hard to give an update, etch is grey as is the undercoat.
I'll be working this week but hopefully on the weekend we can start on the body with the P38 body filler & tie coat.

 

[gibgib]

22nd Apr 2006, 07:09 PM

Look at us go!

We did a lot to the body this arvy in only a few hours.
Chris tidied up the "a" panels beautifully, & the sills, I removed the remanents of paint from the first sand/ grind.
We still have a bit to do tomorrow before any paint can go on.

The P38 filler was applied over the fully cured POR-15.
Chris lightly sanded the POR-15 prior.

 

[gibgib]

23rd Apr 2006, 10:11 PM

Removed all remaining paint from the outside of the body including all the tricky bits using a wire brush on the drill.

Chris finished both "A" panels & the sills, & then fixed a few dents using P38 Filler/ Bog (POR15 product).

After metal ready prep, we painted 2 coats of POR-15 in all the rust prone areas of the body.

 

[gibgib]

25th Apr 2006, 09:31 PM

We were at "Tie Coat" stage this morning, or at least we thought we were.

The instructions for the Tie Coat gives contradictary advice between the data sheets available on the por15.com site. The latest worry with the tie coat as per information sheet:
"We do not recommend topcoating Tie-Coat Primer with other primers prior to finish coating."
This totally throws out our system of using the undercoat primer which we have been using on the panels.
It does not state this in the instructions or on the can.

Basically, until today, we had applied POR-15 to all rust prone areas so we ended up with patches of POR-15.
In light of this statement on the information sheet & being a public holiday today & unable to contact PPC, we decided to wet sand with 600 grit all the previous POR-15 applications (as per instructions), finish bogging using P38 bog over the POR-15, then applying 2 coats of POR-15 over the entire outside of the body. The way we saw it, failure to do this would mean 2 different paint systems adjacent to each other & needing segregation without knowing where to bring it all together.

Next will be the tie coat over all the "black bits". Hopefully after the 24 hour drying time we can hit it with our 2 in 1 undercoat. We will first test it's compatibility on a piece of sheet metal.

In between sanding & bogging & to remove the "metal ready" needed to prepare bare metal for POR-15, we high pressure cleaned the whole body including the rear wheel arches. Quite a lot of crap came away so the wheel arches are being painted as well now.

 

[gibgib]

25th Apr 2006, 10:16 PM


By addo:

The real issue with trying to lay non-POR finishes over sanded POR-15 is that the bond is mechanical only. The POR-15 feels "waxy" when sanded and this is a pretty good indicator of adhesion potential.

However, your Tie-Coat primer will stick nicely over the cleaned, sanded POR-15. You can then dry or wetsand it to get a good bond with Acrylic or 2K finishes. Any breakthroughs should be spotted and resanded. Extra primer is just extra film thickness, which begets a shorter finish life and more shrinkage.

The only way to get either of these paints to stick well directly onto POR-15 is to either sand very roughly (say P80, which gives a bad finish), or (better) to mist a topcoat or two onto the still-tacky POR-15. These need to be barely wetter than dust coats or they will risk possibly fisheyeing. You then get a superior bond between the two incompatible finishes.

If you get really stuck, try the US tech site/email. Remember that they call acrylic (Dulon type paint) TPA usually, and 2K is just "urethane". Interestingly, they now note a "Self Etching Primer" that's supposed to go before the Tie-Coat, over the POR...

Hope this helps a little. I have some ideas on POR alternatives that require a little more investigation, but wholesale at about $250/15 litres. Hope to post on that soon.

Regards, Adam.

 

[gibgib]

26th Apr 2006, 08:48 PM


By GreenBlood:

Thanks Adam, you have cleared up a few points of concern. This is the comment that has me worried, I've lifted this from the data sheet supplied on the POR website (I added the bold text)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tie Coat Primer Info Sheet Topcoating: Allow a minimum of 24 hours before applying any topcoat over Tie-Coat Primer. Failure to allow enough dry time before applying topcoats may result in spidering or crinkling of the finish. We do not recommend topcoating Tie-Coat Primer with other primers prior to finish coating.

The car at this stage now has POR on all the external and some of the internal surfaces, our plan was/is to wet rub back with 320 grit and spray the Tie Coat, sand and start using our single pack system (as on all the removed panels) so 'primer undercoat' sand and spot fill imperfections with a 2 pack putty a second undercoat, guide coat sand and then top coat with 2 pack.

The data sheet suggests we should stay with the POR system all the way through to the top coat, what do you think, are we asking for trouble mixing systems...?

Cheers
Chris

 

[gibgib]

26th Apr 2006, 10:43 PM

By addo:

Chris, Gerry - I don't know why they specifically recommend against use of other primers - other than dry film thickness (DFT). Possibly some primers have extra "bite" via different solvents, and this may bring up chemical elements in the Tie-Coat that then interfere with the topcoat - seems unlikely though. The other aspect may be that any spot priming of sand-throughs, has equal adhesion.

It could also be a way to get you using more of their product!

Topcoating with insufficient cure of the Tie-Coat might cause frying as further solvent or CO2 escapes from the underlying surface. Personally, the only problem I had with any finish frying was when a Deltron basecoat was too dry (varied between wrinkle finish and crocodile skin everywhere once clearcoated - not happy). So this I can only speculate on. Generally, dry times quoted are at 20-25°C so if the temp drops overnight you need to add a little longer.

Some test panels might be in order to save regret later. Do one with just sanded Tie-Coat and colour, and one with all three paints. Lay a strip of masking tape down one edge of the sanded Tie-Coat test panel prior to under/topcoating, and do a test when it's all painted up and dry (at least 4H). If the edge doesn't pull clean with the tape, but goes raggedy and peels some topcoat off the primer, it's a good indicator of problems to come. Also, if you feather one edge of the Tie-Coat out to bare metal when sanding it, you can then see if a feather edge will be affected by other coatings - been snagged here and the results vary by brand and product significantly.

One final note on the Tie-Coat. If it's like POR-15, spray mist doesn't dry in the air. It'll drift and adhere brilliantly to stuff in its path for 20+ metres. If you wear glasses, clean the lenses with POR solvent immediately after spraying (doesn't hurt untinted plastic lenses).

Hope this has helped a little. You're covering ground that's new to me, so I can only speak about some of the similar sitches I've got into and muffed up!

Regards, Adam.

 

[gibgib]

29th Apr 2006, 07:35 PM

Thanks for your info Adam it all helped!

Firstly, body sanded with 320 grit where POR-15 was painted last Monday evening to take the shine off it. This should we hope, give the Tie Coat better adhesion to the POR-15.

I bought a 5 piece air tool kit on special at Super Cheap for $25 which I'd recommend. We used the low pressure spray gun from this to spray on the Tie Coat to the whole body including over the yellow previously painted surfaces inside. There has been no adverse reactions between coats with the first coat of Tie Coat, however, Monday (public holiday in QLD) we will attempt using our primer over the top.

Tomorrow morning we will spray a second coat of Tie Coat to the external surfaces of the body & allow the recommended 24 hours of dry time.

We also made use of the kerosene gun included in the kit I bought & sprayed POR-15 in the sills (after drilling some plugable holes at each end), & all other channels & crannies. This bastard ain't gonna rust.
Even when all is back in I will hit the same areas again with lanolin for a complete active rust treatment.

 

[gibgib]

30th Apr 2006, 06:34 PM

Couple of hours this morning to get a second Tie Coat on with the gun (Chris) & the spray gun.

The stuff seems to sand OK.

Tomorrow will tell whether we try our usually primer/filler over the top or not once we test the 2 systems together first.

I also did some final sanding on 3 doors this arvo. They are ready for top coat.
Cleaned off the existing paint from the 2 headlight cups (or duck eyes as they are called) so I will spray a plastic primer on in readiness for 2 PAC when all the other to be yellow bits go in.

I've bought some clear POR-15 which I intend to paint onto a few bits of metal which I would like to remain as metal in appearance. This arvo I also cleaned parts for this including the drive shafts, steering rods& rack cover plate.

 

[gibgib]

1st May 2006, 08:41 PM

Queensland May 1st - Public Holiday

With the recommended 24 hours drying time for the Tie Coat now allowed for, Chris & I guide coated the body by wet sanding with 320 grit.
Tie Coat sanded *OK* but not brilliantly so we were to either apply another coat of Tie Coat or the Filler/ primer we had been using on all the panels later in the day.

Some of the imperfections required spot filler (also called Blade putty). I bought a product for this last week (now the 3rd brand we have tried) called Urki Low. It is a 2 part system & is easily the best we have used. This will save a lot of time with the remainder of the panel work too.

It was decided to try the Concept Paints 2in1 primer/ filler we had been using on the panels over the Tie coat to give our trademark finish we required.

As you can see it went on beautifully :adrink:so there will only be a light sand & perhaps a few spot re-apps of primer next weekend.
Nearly all panels are at QC stage, the body should be done Saturday arvo too, for Sunday total tidy up, & next week, 2 PACK top coat :banana: