1959 4cv Restoration in North Carolina USA

[JohnW]

Lucky escape! All of those SEV fuel pumps and Solex carburettors of the 50s and 60s are prone to eventually losing the brass tubing! Mine are knurled with a file and Araldited. Better advice is one of the Loctite products or some careful threading of the diecast housing. Quite a few cars of that day (not just Renaults I'd add) have had underbonnet fires just like yours.

 

[Andrew Watkins]

I will probably buy a new pulley, so that will help prevent oil leaks a little. Even with a PCV system, it might leak a little since the engine design does not allow a negative crankcase pressure. Cars that have "real" oil seals on both ends of the crank and cam plus a PCV system usually don't leak much. My Dauphines leaked a tiny bit, but not nearly as much as my MGA MK I.

I spent all day making patterns for the cardboard on either side of the radiator. There are many, many different versions of the cardboards for the 4cv. The one I needed for the left was pictured in the parts book, but the one on the right was not. I had about half of the original cardboard for each side. I also installed the demisting hoses. The demisting system will work as well as new - which means almost not at all. I also included a picture of the fan shroud to show the lower hose attachment that I welded on. For some unknown reason, the shroud only had one outlet at the top. Probably off of an earlier car.

View attachment 129468View attachment 129469View attachment 129470

Your MGA leaked oil to remind you it was British

Andrew

 

[schlitzaugen]

Lucky escape! All of those SEV fuel pumps and Solex carburettors of the 50s and 60s are prone to eventually losing the brass tubing! Mine are knurled with a file and Araldited. Better advice is one of the Loctite products or some careful threading of the diecast housing. Quite a few cars of that day (not just Renaults I'd add) have had underbonnet fires just like yours.

I would recommend against araldite for bonding stuff like that. Not sure how it is said to take heat cycling but in the past I have noticed in our slides at uni that Araldite tends to crystallise and crack and eventually the sample comes off the glass. Takes a few years, but then again, our slides didn't live in a harsh environment like say, under the bonnet of a car. Would be interested to know what those crystals were but never had the chance to take one to the probe and see.

Loctite (and others) have many products designed for this application.

 

[Stan W]

I used locktite on my 4cv carburetor inlet pipe. The casting wasn't large enough to use a threaded fitting. Re the demisting - good to know the 4cv has a built in fire detection system : ) My metropolitan had a Smiths heater with an automatic temperature control in the heater valve. When the knob was rotated, it supposedly set the control valve for a certain temperature. Don't know if it worked, always had the heater full on or all the way off. Yes, British cars leak because.... well they are British. They should have run the oil filter lines through the sills as a corrosion preventative.

An engine question - is there any benefit to using a 904cc cylinder kit in my 4cv engine? It seems to me that a Gordini head, cam, carburetor and manifold would be required for best results. I am planning on using Dauphine cylinders, but someone has offered me a set of 904cc cylinders at a reasonably good price.

 

[jaahn]

Hi
When I bought my first R750 back in the 1960's some wise 'old' person told me they suffer from three problems ; they catch fire, they rollover, and petrol station jockies put the fuel in the radiator. Hmmm my couple of cars never caught fire Had a few other problems though also !
The 'old' person was a Renault/Citroen mechanic ? Stan why not put the 904 kit in ?? I put one in an R4 and it gave it a boost. Of course extra work would be good but a few more CCs will give some extra torque for getting up the mounds in the rough Match the manifolds as the old castings were a bit hit and miss.
I do not remember any demister settings ??? but they had a radiator blind with a cable along the center tunnel, possibly, for winter. But the answer was to drive them hard, foot to the floor, everywhere. Hard to remember now, I must be getting old.
Jaahn

 

[Stan W]

My questions about the 904 kit relate to intake valve size, duration of intake valve opening, and carburetor size. I am already planning on Dauphine sized cylinders and I have a Dauphine 28 IBT carburetor along with the autobleu manifold. The engine will be identical to a 1959 Dauphine, and the inlet to the manifold is around 29 to 30 mm. The head has most likely already been surfaced once, so the compression may be a little over 8:1. 904 kits give higher compression and greater displacement. It seems that it might be difficult to get good air flow with the 27mm valves and 28mm carburetor. I suppose it might have more torque on the low end, but the Dauphine cylinders give substantially more torque than the smaller 4cv ones. The 904 kit I was offered is still more expensive than a set of 58mm ones. I am undecided right now. While I don't intend to drive the car on busy motorways, I think the top speed will be limited by engine redline rather than power even without the 904 kit. If I were going to try to keep up with other cars at 115 kph, then a Gordini head, a Dauphine transaxle and the 904 kit would be great (but scary). What type of head and carburetor did the R4 have?

 

[Andrew Watkins]

My questions about the 904 kit relate to intake valve size, duration of intake valve opening, and carburetor size. I am already planning on Dauphine sized cylinders and I have a Dauphine 28 IBT carburetor along with the autobleu manifold. The engine will be identical to a 1959 Dauphine, and the inlet to the manifold is around 29 to 30 mm. The head has most likely already been surfaced once, so the compression may be a little over 8:1. 904 kits give higher compression and greater displacement. It seems that it might be difficult to get good air flow with the 27mm valves and 28mm carburetor. I suppose it might have more torque on the low end, but the Dauphine cylinders give substantially more torque than the smaller 4cv ones. The 904 kit I was offered is still more expensive than a set of 58mm ones. I am undecided right now. While I don't intend to drive the car on busy motorways, I think the top speed will be limited by engine redline rather than power even without the 904 kit. If I were going to try to keep up with other cars at 115 kph, then a Gordini head, a Dauphine transaxle and the 904 kit would be great (but scary). What type of head and carburetor did the R4 have?

I have been playing with bigger valves etc in a Dauph Gordini motor

One of the things which has become evident is that some of the advantage is lost because of valve shrouding, a problem which would be significantly ameliorated with another 2mm of bore. I am saving up - will stick with standard Dauph bore size for this iteration

The big bore kit also needs a different and quite expensive head gasket ( 160 EUro when last I looked )

If you have the bits and it is all apart I would go for it

Andrew

 

[JohnW]

Good to hear from Andrew on this! Happy New Year to the Dandenongs.

There are two types of 904 kits as far as I can see, one with forged pistons and one with cast pistons, not that I'm throwing doubts around about the cast ones. I've driven a 4CV in France with the 904 kit and one of our NSW members has the kit in his Dauphine Gordini-engined 4CV. They both go pretty well - double the power of the standard car or even a bit more! The one in France has an engine basically to Ferry performance standards, with a large, conventional-looking manifold and I don't know what camshaft he has fitted. It has a high ratio diff and the very rare Gregoire rear suspension - quite a lovely car and it looks practically standard and cruised easily at 100 kph at 4000 rpm before getting an even higher diff ratio. I'm sure it would do 115 kph but I wouldn't call it cruising without that high diff ratio. Both cars are totally without problems and start and run nicely. No silly stuff with hesitancy or poor idling - I think they have carburettors larger than 28 mm.

I can't remember what crownwheel and pinion you have but 850 or 904 would work well with the slightly higher diff ratio in the Dauphines - 8x35 instead of the 4CV 7x33. We have another member with a Dauphine, slightly worked in the breathing, and he reckons it keeps up with the traffic. Mind you, the open road limit in NSW is 100 kph.

Funnily enough I was given an R4 head last Sunday. Looks totally normal Ventoux to me. Dauphine, not Dauphine Gordini.

Nice choice to have!

 

[Sunroof]

Only 44 cc difference between 850 cc and 904 cc. that is 11 cc per cylinder It is the compression difference of the pistons that might help. But take some off the head to increase compression and stay with 850 cc as it would be cheaper in the end surely?

 

[JohnW]

Only 44 cc difference between 850 cc and 904 cc. that is 11 cc per cylinder It is the compression difference of the pistons that might help. But take some off the head to increase compression and stay with 850 cc as it would be cheaper in the end surely?

Certainly cheaper. But 904 cc is a lovely thing to know you have.... Especially if the kit available comes with the forged pistons, which are lovely things.

 

[harrisonati]

Certainly cheaper. But 904 cc is a lovely thing to know you have.... Especially if the kit available comes with the forged pistons, which are lovely things.

My calculation for 60mm bore gives 905cc - that's about or 60cc more than the standard 58mm bore Dauphine. My 60mm pistons are forged with small domes. Apart from the extra capacity, benefits include increased compression and the opportunity to reduce the amount of valve shrouding on the sides of the combustion chambers. I think that the gain in power is closer to 10% than the 7% capacity increase. Certainly compression can be increased by 'shaving'I'm very happy that I fitted 60mm pistons and liners to my R1090 Dauphine!

 

[harrisonati]

The post above was not complete or edited. It should have read:
My calculation for 60mm bore gives 905cc - that's about 7% or 60cc more than the standard 58mm bore Dauphine (845cc). Apart from the extra capacity, benefits include increased compression and the opportunity to slightly reduce valve shrouding on the sides of the combustion chambers. The 60mm pistons that I've seen have small domes which also increase compression. Certainly compression can also by increased by 'shaving' the head, but there's a prudent limit to what you should remove - If you're looking for extra power, you've probably already done that!
I have fitted 60mm forged domed pistons to my R1090 Dauphine and I think that the power gain is closer to 10% than the 7% capacity increase would suggest. After travelling more than 20,000 miles with the 60mm set-up, I'm still happy that I made the change.

 

[harrisonati]

I have been playing with bigger valves etc in a Dauph Gordini motor

One of the things which has become evident is that some of the advantage is lost because of valve shrouding, a problem which would be significantly ameliorated with another 2mm of bore. I am saving up - will stick with standard Dauph bore size for this iteration

The big bore kit also needs a different and quite expensive head gasket ( 160 EUro when last I looked )

If you have the bits and it is all apart I would go for it

Andrew

Apart from fitting 60mm pistons and sleeves, I've also done a 'port and polish' on my R1090 Dauphine. At that time I replaced valves and guides with new items of standard diameter. My analysis was that there is little or no benefit in enlarging valves because of the increased shrouding that would generate.
Yes, 60mm head gaskets are expensive. I always keep a spare on hand, because of potential delays in sourcing. If do you convert, I suggest that you buy two 60mm head gaskets.

 

[JohnW]

My calculation for 60mm bore gives 905cc - that's about or 60cc more than the standard 58mm bore Dauphine. My 60mm pistons are forged with small domes. Apart from the extra capacity, benefits include increased compression and the opportunity to reduce the amount of valve shrouding on the sides of the combustion chambers. I think that the gain in power is closer to 10% than the 7% capacity increase. Certainly compression can be increased by 'shaving'I'm very happy that I fitted 60mm pistons and liners to my R1090 Dauphine!

I'd forgotten you'd built a big bore one.....

 

[pugwash]

my dad did the mods on my car in the day i think it had over bored 850 liners with triumph herald pistons ,was close to 900 cc ,it had a Kien carby off a Mazda Bongo van,the only standard carbs i had, had warped at the base, although i seem to remember haveing to mod the venturi to get it to work right, and Gordini 4 speed and rear suspension ,. a bit of cutting to the inner guards but the 4 speed made a huge difference ,as you didnt loose momentum with that big change down from 3 to 2 on the 3 speed much easier to keep it on the boil ,spose i had it geared up some with the 155/15 tyres on the rear ,on standard spider rims ,i did some crazy things back then ,pugs

 

[JohnW]

my dad did the mods on my car in the day i think it had over bored 850 liners with triumph herald pistons ,was close to 900 cc ,it had a Kien carby off a Mazda Bongo van,the only standard carbs i had, had warped at the base, although i seem to remember haveing to mod the venturi to get it to work right, and Gordini 4 speed and rear suspension ,. a bit of cutting to the inner guards but the 4 speed made a huge difference ,as you didnt loose momentum with that big change down from 3 to 2 on the 3 speed much easier to keep it on the boil ,spose i had it geared up some with the 155/15 tyres on the rear ,on standard spider rims ,i did some crazy things back then ,pugs

"Crazy" was your word.... There was a lot of it about, in your defence. A Drongo van carbie? Probably quite a good idea.

 

[pugwash]

in those days i had often people offering me cars they had lying about ,for no money , just to get rid of them, they were not a rare or collectible as they are now, so takeing an angle grinder to the inner guards ,wasnt regarded as extreme ,and everything was on a budget ,we made up a muffler out of a bit of tailshaft from an old holden ,big blip and a double shuffle into first to get up our driveway probably drove the heighbours nuts

 

[JohnW]

I would recommend against araldite for bonding stuff like hat. Not sure how it is said to take heat cycling but in the past I have noticed in our slides at uni that Araldite tends to crystallise and crack and eventually the sample comes off the glass. Takes a few years, but then again, our slides didn't live in a harsh environment like say, under the bonnet of a car. Would be interested to know what those crystals were but never had the chance to take one to the probe and see.

Loctite (and others) have many products designed for this application.

No arguments from me, and Alan Moore made that Loctite point to me on another matter! I haven't needed to do this job for years and years and I hadn't discovered the full Loctite range then. Nothing has come loose, happily. I check.......

With the press-in knurled approach, the pipe is tight to start with and the Araldite is more sealing the roughness than holding it in, I reckon. We still need to catch up for coffee!

 

[jaahn]

My questions about the 904 kit relate to intake valve size, duration of intake valve opening, and carburetor size. I am already planning on Dauphine sized cylinders and I have a Dauphine 28 IBT carburetor along with the autobleu manifold. The engine will be identical to a 1959 Dauphine, and the inlet to the manifold is around 29 to 30 mm. The head has most likely already been surfaced once, so the compression may be a little over 8:1. 904 kits give higher compression and greater displacement. It seems that it might be difficult to get good air flow with the 27mm valves and 28mm carburetor. I suppose it might have more torque on the low end, but the Dauphine cylinders give substantially more torque than the smaller 4cv ones. The 904 kit I was offered is still more expensive than a set of 58mm ones. I am undecided right now. While I don't intend to drive the car on busy motorways, I think the top speed will be limited by engine redline rather than power even without the 904 kit. If I were going to try to keep up with other cars at 115 kph, then a Gordini head, a Dauphine transaxle and the 904 kit would be great (but scary). What type of head and carburetor did the R4 have?

Hi Stan
You are over-thinking this looking under the bed for boogey men. Extra CCs are good, no down side really. (except cost ?) Forget about valve shrouding and air flow etc etc that is all BS in this circumstance. If you can clean a few casting dags and match the manifolds better and even clean out the valve ports a bit, it will feel good. If not then just settle for the 7%. Shave the head while it is off to get the compression up to a modern figure. You might have to retard the ignition because the engine runs so much better as the combustion is faster. In times past on old Citroens I just asked for 1/8" off the head. No down side ! I probably shaved a few 750 heads too but forget now. They were meaty thick alloy castings if they are not corroded badly. Gees the difference the good coolants made there. The R4 was an early model with a 750 engine and the head was just the same as the 750 heads as I remember ! I put a hot cam in that too but it was really too wild for a 3 speed and front wheel drive, but a small cam would be good too !
Back in the good ol'days, say about 1965, we had a 750 we acquired from somewhere and drove it around a newly laid out subdivision with dirt roads behind my mates place. Heaven sliding it around till somebody rolled it. So we went and cut the roof off with a can opener and a hacksaw on the pillars and frame members. Left the doors on "for safety" as no belts in those days. I think we rigged up a can and hose so "no one else could drive it", and had to tie the center pillars together with a rope to hold the doors from drooping when opened That kept going for quite a while till it just disappeared one day. Ahh well, easy come, easy go !
We had earlier (or later) done a similar thing with a Fiat 500 Toppolino fitted with a Triumph 500 twin motor. It was fun for a while 'up the back' of another mates place. Then he came home one day and a dozer had cleared the area and dug a big hole for the rubbish and made it all go away, before the subdivision started. Bugger !
Hmm had a Honda 50 step thru that did good service for a long while through the bush again. My mates wife was the quickest till she found out it had brakes. When the bike fell apart I fitted the motor to an old kart frame for my kids to drive around. Not a bad unit for a freebee either. I wonder where that went in the end ?
Cheers Jaahn

 

[JohnW]

Hi Stan
You are over-thinking this looking under the bed for boogey men. Extra CCs are good, no down side really. (except cost ?) Forget about valve shrouding and air flow etc etc that is all BS in this circumstance. If you can clean a few casting dags and match the manifolds better and even clean out the valve ports a bit, it will feel good. If not then just settle for the 7%. Shave the head while it is off to get the compression up to a modern figure. You might have to retard the ignition because the engine runs so much better as the combustion is faster. In times past on old Citroens I just asked for 1/8" off the head. No down side ! I probably shaved a few 750 heads too but forget now. They were meaty thick alloy castings if they are not corroded badly. Gees the difference the good coolants made there. The R4 was an early model with a 750 engine and the head was just the same as the 750 heads as I remember ! I put a hot cam in that too but it was really too wild for a 3 speed and front wheel drive, but a small cam would be good too !
Back in the good ol'days, say about 1965, we had a 750 we acquired from somewhere and drove it around a newly laid out subdivision with dirt roads behind my mates place. Heaven sliding it around till somebody rolled it. So we went and cut the roof off with a can opener and a hacksaw on the pillars and frame members. Left the doors on "for safety" as no belts in those days. I think we rigged up a can and hose so "no one else could drive it", and had to tie the center pillars together with a rope to hold the doors from drooping when opened That kept going for quite a while till it just disappeared one day. Ahh well, easy come, easy go !
We had earlier (or later) done a similar thing with a Fiat 500 Toppolino fitted with a Triumph 500 twin motor. It was fun for a while 'up the back' of another mates place. Then he came home one day and a dozer had cleared the area and dug a big hole for the rubbish and made it all go away, before the subdivision started. Bugger !
Hmm had a Honda 50 step thru that did good service for a long while through the bush again. My mates wife was the quickest till she found out it had brakes. When the bike fell apart I fitted the motor to an old kart frame for my kids to drive around. Not a bad unit for a freebee either. I wonder where that went in the end ?
Cheers Jaahn

We must get together over a bottle of red sometime. I guess you aren't near Perth but it is an interesting drive...... Good Stan found "us", or I hope he thinks so anyway!! I was given an R4 head just last week, btw.

Love "just asked for 1/8" off the head"... I guess if it was too much there was a banging noise.