1959 4cv Restoration in North Carolina USA

[JohnW]

I need to construct a PCV system for my engine. I need a vacuum source from the manifold. I was thinking of drilling a hole in the intake manifold below the carburetor. Any thoughts on that?

I once (aged 18) ran a vacuum gauge, as they were quite the thing in the late 1960s/early 1970s. Useless. I needed open throttle just to keep up with the traffic so mostly there was no vacuum to measure. I did see inlet manifolds with a boss on top of the inlet manifold for drilling and tapping, and I think that is what I did. But precious little vacuum.....

Back then my later model pressed steel rocker cover, of pressed steel, had a T-piece on top which took a flexible pipe from a fitting on the side of the block and delivered fumes via a flexible pipe to a spigot on the top of the oil bath air filter, as per Mr Schlitz's VW description. The T-piece was pressed onto the rocker cover and every one I saw worked loose and leaked oil.

No PCV valve, just 1/2" plastic pipe.

 

[Stan W]

My first Dauphine was a1964, and I believe US regulations required a PCV valve then. The hose from the rocker cover connected to a Tee on top of the PCV valve. The PCV valve was connected to the intake below the carburetor. The other leg of the Tee connected to a fitting on the top of the carburetor. The fitting on the top of the carburetor must have had some sort of orifice or check valve, or there would not have been real use for having a PCV valve. I am mostly interested in having a clean engine compartment - no oily fumes getting it dirty.


This is just a picture I found somewhere, but it clearly shows the PCV system.

 

[Stan W]

Finally got the wheels finished! It took a few coats of primer/surfacer to get them smooth enough for the base and clear. Once they have cured a few days, I will get the tires mounted.

 

[Stan W]

I have a question about shock absorbers. I have information on sizes, travel and mounts of monroe shocks. Can I use a shock absorber that fits the front of my 4cv, or do I have to have one specially made for the small mass of the car? Generic shocks are much less expensive than ones specifically sold for the 4cv.

 

[JohnW]

My first Dauphine was a1964, and I believe US regulations required a PCV valve then. The hose from the rocker cover connected to a Tee on top of the PCV valve. The PCV valve was connected to the intake below the carburetor. The other leg of the Tee connected to a fitting on the top of the carburetor. The fitting on the top of the carburetor must have had some sort of orifice or check valve, or there would not have been real use for having a PCV valve. I am mostly interested in having a clean engine compartment - no oily fumes getting it dirty.
View attachment 129148

This is just a picture I found somewhere, but it clearly shows the PCV system.

That's interesting, and new to me. Learn something every day! Here's what my 4CV looked like in 1966 with a breather hose to the air cleaner. I don't think that was standard, as they usually had an inverted breather on the side (Reniflex or Reni....). The main source of oil fumes was the original oil filler cap (on the photo), which breathed freely through a mesh filter, at least on my car.
Ha, I see I had that manifold support bracket fitted - I have NO idea when I must have discarded it!

 

[JohnW]

I have a question about shock absorbers. I have information on sizes, travel and mounts of monroe shocks. Can I use a shock absorber that fits the front of my 4cv, or do I have to have one specially made for the small mass of the car? Generic shocks are much less expensive than ones specifically sold for the 4cv.

I've no idea I'm afraid. Some people have used Morris Mini-Minor (the original, not the BMW Maxi-Mini) rears on the front of R10/R8s I think. I just bought new ones in France for my rear end conversion from lever actions.

 

[Stan W]

The word you were looking for is reniflard. It's the French word for "breather", even though it sounds like something that happens when you eat too much of the wrong type of cheese.

 

[JohnW]

The word you were looking for is reniflard. It's the French word for "breather", even though it sounds like something that happens when you eat too much of the wrong type of cheese.

They work well too. I have one these days. But if the steel pipe slides down its diecast housing, lots of oil goes too. But you know that!

We have a reasonable range of French cheeses just down the road, a great comfort. We once found a sensational grocery shop with such joys about half way between Monterey and Santa Barbara. That was when travelling was relatively easily...... Seems only yesterday.

 

[schlitzaugen]

That is an interesting setup Stan with the pipe going below the base of the carby. I wonder why. Maybe there was a filter in the T piece to separate oil vapour from the fumes and one went above the carby and the other below?

But why do you nee to drill a hole, doesn't your manifold have it already?

As for shocks, not knowing anything about these cars I would suggest you want them tuned to the mass of the car/spring rate otherwise they're not going to do much. I mean the car is probably going to be overdamped (assuming the dampers you can buy are for a heavier car because there wouldn't be too many very light cars these days), which is going to feel like you're riding on the bump stops.

 

[Stan W]

The only real clue I have to the PCV system operation is the explanation in my Kenneth Ball R8/R10 manual. The pipe going to the carburetor was a alternate path for crankcase fumes at high power/low vacuum conditions. The oil separation takes place in the valve cover. There was an assembly welded in the top of the Dauphine valve covers (mid 1959 and later) that had some sort of labyrinth or gauze to separate the oil. My autobleu manifold does not have a hole going into the intake. It appears to have one, but that is just a threaded piece welded on as a mount for the accelerator pivot.



Here you can see the inlet for the fumes near the oil drain holes. The hole on the left is for the valve cover retaining stud, and is not open to the oil separator area.

As for the shocks, I think you are correct. I rebuild and drove a Nash Metropolitan many years ago. It felt as though there were no springs in the rear. A previous owner had replaced the shocks (with units probably made for a big car) When I finally installed the correct shock absorbers, it rode properly.
I was hoping that modern gas shocks would magically adapt to the weight of the car........
Front shocks for a golf cart would probably work, but they are not less expensive. I guess I just need to spend the money on the correct ones. Thanks for the advice!

 

[Stan W]

I am putting the wiring back in the engine compartment and making appropriate repairs as I go. The voltage regulator is now just a shiny terminal block since the alternator has an internal regulator. I disconnected the internal wires inside the voltage regulator.


I am interested in the possibility of using original Mini rear shocks on the front of the 4cv. The back of the mini is very light, and the shocks cost about 1/4 that of the ones made for the 4cv.

 

[JohnW]

I am putting the wiring back in the engine compartment and making appropriate repairs as I go. The voltage regulator is now just a shiny terminal block since the alternator has an internal regulator. I disconnected the internal wires inside the voltage regulator.
View attachment 129236View attachment 129237

I am interested in the possibility of using original Mini rear shocks on the front of the 4cv. The back of the mini is very light, and the shocks cost about 1/4 that of the ones made for the 4cv.

If the length etc is correct, the Mini shocks are not an expensive experiment I guess! Very impressed that you've left the old regulator. I should do that!

 

[schlitzaugen]

Try to find what is the weight of a Mini and more importantly how much of it is over the rear.

 

[JohnW]

Try to find what is the weight of a Mini and more importantly how much of it is over the rear.

A few people have used them, but I've no idea how well they work (I'd be surprised if the dynamics were good but then you do need to consider the car's potential use. What surprised me was that they seemed to be OK in dimensions and movement. Riding in an early Mini, suspension travel never felt generous. Clever design with compromised execution I reckon.

 

[schlitzaugen]

There's other problems apart from length and fit, travel. The valving in the shock and the fluid used decide the damping curve and ideally you'd want that matched to the springs. If these do not match, you will feel it. But as you say, it all depends on what the end user wants.

 

[Stan W]

From minimania.com:
Weight dry 587KG = 1294 lbs.
Percent Front Weight = 828/1294 x 100 =64%
Percent Rear Weight = 466/1294 x 100 =36%

The rear weight appears very similar to the front weight of the 4cv. I will look into the travel of the mini rear suspension. As far as the valving goes, I may have to resort to wishful thinking. The mini has a variable spring rate due to the rubber cones in the suspension. It seems to me that the requirements of the mini rear suspension without passengers in the back would be similar to a lightly loaded 4cv.

 

[Stan W]

The maximum travel of the original 4cv shock is 4.5", maximum travel of a KYB shock made for the mini is 5.7". The fully compressed length of the mini rear shock is slightly longer. I doubt it would be a problem, but there are a couple of easy ways to accommodate the extra length if necessary. Three of the shocks on my 4cv still work, but the one front shock that works is leaking oil.

 

[JohnW]

From minimania.com:
Weight dry 587KG = 1294 lbs.
Percent Front Weight = 828/1294 x 100 =64%
Percent Rear Weight = 466/1294 x 100 =36%

The rear weight appears very similar to the front weight of the 4cv. I will look into the travel of the mini rear suspension. As far as the valving goes, I may have to resort to wishful thinking. The mini has a variable spring rate due to the rubber cones in the suspension. It seems to me that the requirements of the mini rear suspension without passengers in the back would be similar to a lightly loaded 4cv.

Sounds good enough for a golf buggy! Actually for most purposes. If it is horrible you can write off the money or find a Mini owner!

 

[JohnW]

There's other problems apart from length and fit, travel. The valving in the shock and the fluid used decide the damping curve and ideally you'd want that matched to the springs. If these do not match, you will feel it. But as you say, it all depends on what the end user wants.

I've always been a bit surprised about Mini shockers being used in the R10 front. Either they work well or those with them don't know the ride could be improved I guess. I've had Konis on my R8 since the 1970s. The first were secondhand (front) and they only lasted 30 years. The rears are still fine after 40 years and over 200,000 km!

 

[Aln]

I don’t remember how much I modded them to fit, but I have a set of front shocks from an early Fiat Bambino in the front of my 4CV. These are Koni brand shocks. There are of course quite a few sellers in France that do have a listing for 4CV shocks.
I bought a full set of shocks for our Dauphine Gordini from Melun Retro Passion a few years ago, and have found them to be quite reasonable in performance, certainly better than the originals that were replaced.