As you can see from the time of the post it was well past bed time and I failed to see that the dry sump system would delete the original oil pump!
Thanks for the reply all the same.
Woz
The dry sump Gordini motor.
- Thread starter Frans
- Start date
As you can see from the time of the post it was well past bed time and I failed to see that the dry sump system would delete the original oil pump!
Thanks for the reply all the same.
Woz
Hello Frans,
I have just discovered your amazing thread about Building a real Renault Gordini race engine. I`m German and I´m going to do it as well, I use the R5 engine which I increase to 1768 ccm. I do engines since more than 30 years and I will state some things which may be helpful or at least to think about.
I`m worried that your Nascar oil pumps are way too big for your engine. The small Renault engine will need about max. 30L/min at full power, a Nascar engine will - estimated - need almost 80 or 100 L/min. That wouldn´t be a smaller problem as a pump too small, of course, but you have to bypass a huge amount of flow over the relief valve. I don`t even know if it will work at all to Bypass such a big amount with the cross sections which are present. Anyway, you will have a big power amount to drive the huge pumps. The oil pressure will be much too high, so you will have to limit it by bypassing the flow.
Apart from that, I would support the idea to use a belt to drive the pump. The chain might overheat because ist behind the engine and not in the airstream as a bike chain, but I don´t know surely. At the Renault 5 Turbo works Rallye cars, they use as well a hain but it was integrated inside the timing chain housing and was lubricated as desired.
Frans, I really wouldn´t be a smartass but would like to tell you about my thoughts. In worst case, the big amounts of bypassed oil will create huge aeration and foaming of your oil and will make more problems as which you tried to solve by deciding for a dry sump system. I really wouldn´t advice against a dry sump, but in 1990, I developped DTM engines in Germany and a dry sump system was prohibited at all. Our engine was a 3 L Opel with about 425 bhp , 10000 rpm and we had never an engine failure due to the lubrication (rather because of other stuff ;-)) Our G-Forces were also in the 2 G range at that time.
Cheers
Udo
I have just discovered your amazing thread about Building a real Renault Gordini race engine. I`m German and I´m going to do it as well, I use the R5 engine which I increase to 1768 ccm. I do engines since more than 30 years and I will state some things which may be helpful or at least to think about.
I`m worried that your Nascar oil pumps are way too big for your engine. The small Renault engine will need about max. 30L/min at full power, a Nascar engine will - estimated - need almost 80 or 100 L/min. That wouldn´t be a smaller problem as a pump too small, of course, but you have to bypass a huge amount of flow over the relief valve. I don`t even know if it will work at all to Bypass such a big amount with the cross sections which are present. Anyway, you will have a big power amount to drive the huge pumps. The oil pressure will be much too high, so you will have to limit it by bypassing the flow.
Apart from that, I would support the idea to use a belt to drive the pump. The chain might overheat because ist behind the engine and not in the airstream as a bike chain, but I don´t know surely. At the Renault 5 Turbo works Rallye cars, they use as well a hain but it was integrated inside the timing chain housing and was lubricated as desired.
Frans, I really wouldn´t be a smartass but would like to tell you about my thoughts. In worst case, the big amounts of bypassed oil will create huge aeration and foaming of your oil and will make more problems as which you tried to solve by deciding for a dry sump system. I really wouldn´t advice against a dry sump, but in 1990, I developped DTM engines in Germany and a dry sump system was prohibited at all. Our engine was a 3 L Opel with about 425 bhp , 10000 rpm and we had never an engine failure due to the lubrication (rather because of other stuff ;-)) Our G-Forces were also in the 2 G range at that time.
Cheers
Udo
Me again,
sorry, I might be confused by thinking that your pump is from an Nascar, didn´t you mention it? If the pressure section is smaller from another engine, my objections are irrelevant of course, sorry for the confusion. Which wide is the pressure section of your pump? And which brand?
About the sealer bottom rings of the liners:
I don´t use them at all. My bore is 80 mm, there´s no space for them anyway. I´m going to seal my liners just with silicone and pay well attention to the protrusion on top of the liners. The flexibility of the sealers is unknown and the preload onto the liner might decrease, causing potentially head gasket failures.
Anyway, very nice workmanship of your engine, credit to your skills !
Cheers
Udo
sorry, I might be confused by thinking that your pump is from an Nascar, didn´t you mention it? If the pressure section is smaller from another engine, my objections are irrelevant of course, sorry for the confusion. Which wide is the pressure section of your pump? And which brand?
About the sealer bottom rings of the liners:
I don´t use them at all. My bore is 80 mm, there´s no space for them anyway. I´m going to seal my liners just with silicone and pay well attention to the protrusion on top of the liners. The flexibility of the sealers is unknown and the preload onto the liner might decrease, causing potentially head gasket failures.
Anyway, very nice workmanship of your engine, credit to your skills !
Cheers
Udo
Hi Udo,
Positive criticism can always be appreciated! Thank you for looking at it.
The NASCAR pumps will be used by 2 of my friends copying me at a later stage. None of us are motor mechanics and will appreciate tips from other experiences. I know that they have made their pumps smaller because the pumps are in segments. they were 2 pressure segments and 5 scavenging segments. It has been reduced to 1 pressure and 2 scavenging segments.
My pump is an old pump dating back many years. I am using the chain because it was chain driven originally. I will have to do testing and if it over heats then I will change to belt drive. It should be easy to adapt the belt drive gears. The pump has no name on it and I can measure the pump width tonight when I am at home.
Using no sealer rings at the bottom of the sleeves is common use for me as in the past we used to have the top of the block shaved with the required amount to get sleeve protrusion. In my case I'm using shims because it is cheaper and because I have a reliable race engine in my race car, this is an economy build
Regards, Frans.
Positive criticism can always be appreciated! Thank you for looking at it.
The NASCAR pumps will be used by 2 of my friends copying me at a later stage. None of us are motor mechanics and will appreciate tips from other experiences. I know that they have made their pumps smaller because the pumps are in segments. they were 2 pressure segments and 5 scavenging segments. It has been reduced to 1 pressure and 2 scavenging segments.
My pump is an old pump dating back many years. I am using the chain because it was chain driven originally. I will have to do testing and if it over heats then I will change to belt drive. It should be easy to adapt the belt drive gears. The pump has no name on it and I can measure the pump width tonight when I am at home.
Using no sealer rings at the bottom of the sleeves is common use for me as in the past we used to have the top of the block shaved with the required amount to get sleeve protrusion. In my case I'm using shims because it is cheaper and because I have a reliable race engine in my race car, this is an economy build
Regards, Frans.
Frans, didn´t you think about fitting your dry sump tank in the front trunk to optimise the weight distribution? Some more work, but well worth the effort.
The Nascars usually use 5 or 6 sections and probably a bigger pressure one, you are right. So far I think your pump layout should work.
Udo
The Nascars usually use 5 or 6 sections and probably a bigger pressure one, you are right. So far I think your pump layout should work.
Udo
Frans, did you end up the build of the dry sump system ??? any updates??? I'm thinking to do the same but in a 2.0 lts J6R engine that is currently mounted in my Renault 8
Regards From Mexico
Arturo
Regards From Mexico
Arturo
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Hi ducato,
No, I haven't finished it yet. Coincidentally I have just received a box full of hoses and spares a week ago from a friend that will help me a lot in the completion. I have not given up on it but my excuses are the Matra Jet6 restoration, the race car engine failed after 7 years racing, then after the rebuild I broke the gearbox and then with the first test race last Sunday I was involved in a "get together" that is forcing me to do some panelbeating now :crazy:.
Outstanding for the completion is the cylinder head that needs new valve seats for the bigger valves, valve guides and maybe a skim to get rid of the rough marks.
Thanks for the interest but I hope to start soon.
Regards, Frans.
No, I haven't finished it yet. Coincidentally I have just received a box full of hoses and spares a week ago from a friend that will help me a lot in the completion. I have not given up on it but my excuses are the Matra Jet6 restoration, the race car engine failed after 7 years racing, then after the rebuild I broke the gearbox and then with the first test race last Sunday I was involved in a "get together" that is forcing me to do some panelbeating now :crazy:.
Outstanding for the completion is the cylinder head that needs new valve seats for the bigger valves, valve guides and maybe a skim to get rid of the rough marks.
Thanks for the interest but I hope to start soon.
Regards, Frans.
Thanks Franz for putting all this stuff on here !
This thread never fails to interest me and obviously lots of others around the world. No back biting or acrimony either which is unusual on a forum
We watch with interest a craftsman at work !
Jaahn
for putting all this stuff on here !This thread never fails to interest me and obviously lots of others around the world. No back biting or acrimony either which is unusual on a forum
We watch with interest a craftsman at work !
Jaahn
Like your work on the dry sump idea. I have heard that oil pressure problems occur not only in the R8G motor but also in the Alpine V6 A310 and GTA V6 during hard racing due to their shallow sumps. I wonder why you did not use the alloy sump sold by Mecaparts on the R8G as it has a similar baffle arrangement that you have made for your sump?
If the Mecaparts sump was used, or any normal sump, the engine would not have a dry sump. The purpose of a dry sump is to have the oil in a large tank away from the engine. Benefits of not having a sump on the bottom of the engine are many, including more oil, cooler oil, less drag on the crank as it sloshes through a sump full of oil, less frothing and aeration of the oil, no oil surge since the pickup is a different arrangement to a normal pickup, more ground clearance allowing the engine to be lowered.
Frans could probably add to the list but he seems to have a lot of work to do at the moment. Also, seeing how he operates, although it is not necessary in this case I would expect he would fabricate a sump before spending a lot of money on one from Meca.
Frans could probably add to the list but he seems to have a lot of work to do at the moment. Also, seeing how he operates, although it is not necessary in this case I would expect he would fabricate a sump before spending a lot of money on one from Meca.
If I recall, he's posted with photos of that very sump. As usual for Frans, lovely work!
Bazzamac, Like I said in the start of this thread, it was like a " I dare you to be successful" and with the ZA car it was more a challenge because it ran on 10" full slicks.
I could have used the MecaParts sump but.......trying to be humble, I think mine is better with closer fitting parts and the MecaParts sump rely on a bigger volume of oil. We've all heard of running on a shoestring budget, I am running on a dentalfloss budget :wink2:.
The dry sump is a new venture for me as well, so again I'm trying to do it with my own fabrication skills as the whole car is done. It is easy to buy and bolt on as the youngsters do nowadays with their Jappers and then they say "I built it".
Regards, Frans.
I could have used the MecaParts sump but.......trying to be humble, I think mine is better with closer fitting parts and the MecaParts sump rely on a bigger volume of oil. We've all heard of running on a shoestring budget, I am running on a dentalfloss budget :wink2:.
The dry sump is a new venture for me as well, so again I'm trying to do it with my own fabrication skills as the whole car is done. It is easy to buy and bolt on as the youngsters do nowadays with their Jappers and then they say "I built it".
Regards, Frans.
Hi Frans. Understand you are operating on a tight budget and build it yourself philosophy which is great. I thought there may be a technical reason for not using the Mecaparts sump apart from the desirability of dry sumping, some of which are mentioned by Bustumif.
Okay my cage was rattled and I woke up.
I have the customers G engine on the shelf and the dry sump motor on the stand again. There is some thinking work to do and a bit of imagineering on how to run the hoses. I have in the past made mistakes where you do something and then it is in the way of something else, so I completed the engine cylinder head and a few add-ons (temporarily) and then took the opportunity do some permanent work as well.
A permanent job was to fit the carbs and get the linkages to work. This is a tricky job on a G engine because the space is so limited. I bought an Alfa Romeo engine for $400, removed the carbs and threw the engine away. That means that there were no G parts available and all the linkages is made up out of the scrap box. The inner shafts and their nuts have to be cut and the nuts shaved to get clearance. Because the carbs are so new (note the TPS and mounting which came with) and they are 40DCOM carbs, I managed to modify and fit Dellorto linkages successfully.
I am also doing the permanent studs for the waterpump and now I have to route the hoses and all i need to remember is that I have to keep the extractor and starter in mind.
The hoses is actually very tricky. The pump sucks the oil from the tank, pipe 1, through it self and then to the filter, pipe 2, and then to the cooler, pipe 3, and from there to the engine inlet, pipe 4. then we have pipe 5 & 6 from the sump outlets to the scavenging sections on the pump and from there pipe 7 pushes the oil back into the tank where it is de-airated and collected for recirculation. & pipes to be neat and clear everything.
This is the look of the mock up engine top, remember the bottom end is complete. I will make a cover for the chain as well to prevent it from spraying oil in the engine compartment.
Note the tight fit between the carb butterfly shafts.
I saw a few extra tubes coming from the carbs and I will plug them for now.
I will follow up soon when the hoses have found their routes.
Regards, Frans.
I have the customers G engine on the shelf and the dry sump motor on the stand again. There is some thinking work to do and a bit of imagineering on how to run the hoses. I have in the past made mistakes where you do something and then it is in the way of something else, so I completed the engine cylinder head and a few add-ons (temporarily) and then took the opportunity do some permanent work as well.
A permanent job was to fit the carbs and get the linkages to work. This is a tricky job on a G engine because the space is so limited. I bought an Alfa Romeo engine for $400, removed the carbs and threw the engine away. That means that there were no G parts available and all the linkages is made up out of the scrap box. The inner shafts and their nuts have to be cut and the nuts shaved to get clearance. Because the carbs are so new (note the TPS and mounting which came with) and they are 40DCOM carbs, I managed to modify and fit Dellorto linkages successfully.
I am also doing the permanent studs for the waterpump and now I have to route the hoses and all i need to remember is that I have to keep the extractor and starter in mind.
The hoses is actually very tricky. The pump sucks the oil from the tank, pipe 1, through it self and then to the filter, pipe 2, and then to the cooler, pipe 3, and from there to the engine inlet, pipe 4. then we have pipe 5 & 6 from the sump outlets to the scavenging sections on the pump and from there pipe 7 pushes the oil back into the tank where it is de-airated and collected for recirculation. & pipes to be neat and clear everything.
This is the look of the mock up engine top, remember the bottom end is complete. I will make a cover for the chain as well to prevent it from spraying oil in the engine compartment.
Note the tight fit between the carb butterfly shafts.
I saw a few extra tubes coming from the carbs and I will plug them for now.
I will follow up soon when the hoses have found their routes.
Regards, Frans.
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Neat work Frans. Out of interest, are you using a standard water pump or a high volume one?
Best wishes of course.
Best wishes of course.
Hi Frans,
You mention "a customer's G engine". Who else in N.Z. has got a Gordini ? (besides Johan and yourself). Are we going to see another one on track?
Henry
You mention "a customer's G engine". Who else in N.Z. has got a Gordini ? (besides Johan and yourself). Are we going to see another one on track?
Henry
Henry, it is a long story, and I might step on toes. Yes there is another G here although it is a re-bodied R1134 now with wedge engine and a different owner with the 1100 G motor for his A110.
Frans.
Frans.
Hi Frans,
Interesting and informative reading, as it has become, if written by you.
One question I have for you, given I am fitting a X flow head to my engine.
Have you regarded the inlet tract length of major importance for your race engines - ie, from inlet valve face to end of velocity stack / ram tube?
I only recently picked it up during my research regarding the topic.
Lastly, would the fitting of the long pipes from carb face to airfilter housing on the standard G's be exactly the reason, as per my question.
Regards & Happy New Year,
Arthur.
Hi All,
Arthur, my apologies as I haven't noticed your post and question..
The inlet tracts have been guessed when the car was built. I realised that you need reasonable length but also in a restricted space. So before the engine went in I modified that area with a big hammer and a piece of wood to get more space as seen here in backyard style. Note the dent in the RH sill.
Then I made a (don't know what it is in English) tool with a male and female shape and got some 40mm id offcuts from the local exhaust shop. With some grease on the tool I started and hammered the living daylights out of the tube so that it formed a bell shape and that had a base welded to it and became my inlet trumpets. I chose a length that would fit in the space and imagined that when my aircleaner box goes over it there will be enough space for the air to form a natural flow through the trumpets. Unfortunately I don't have photos of my air inlet box here at work but I can post later if you want.
Nothing has changed in this area yet so I can't tell you if longer inlets would have been better or not. I know that the intake system is a sensitive and important side of the performance but I have neglected this side a bit.
Regards, Frans.
Arthur, my apologies as I haven't noticed your post and question..
The inlet tracts have been guessed when the car was built. I realised that you need reasonable length but also in a restricted space. So before the engine went in I modified that area with a big hammer and a piece of wood to get more space as seen here in backyard style. Note the dent in the RH sill.
Then I made a (don't know what it is in English) tool with a male and female shape and got some 40mm id offcuts from the local exhaust shop. With some grease on the tool I started and hammered the living daylights out of the tube so that it formed a bell shape and that had a base welded to it and became my inlet trumpets. I chose a length that would fit in the space and imagined that when my aircleaner box goes over it there will be enough space for the air to form a natural flow through the trumpets. Unfortunately I don't have photos of my air inlet box here at work but I can post later if you want.
Nothing has changed in this area yet so I can't tell you if longer inlets would have been better or not. I know that the intake system is a sensitive and important side of the performance but I have neglected this side a bit.
Regards, Frans.
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Hi All,
Some work on the dry sump engine is the new cover on the the back of the head that I made, because I don't have one, complete with 2 1/8"BSP holes in for a temp sensor and the other for whatever.
Then I made a cover for the oil pump chain drive so that it doesn't spray the chain oil inside the engine compartment.
Got all the fittings in the pump and remote filter but there has been changes already and I'm sure a few more to come.
I wonder if there is someone out there that could help me with the oil cap and the little towers to pull the rocker cover down. The oil cap on a Gordini is a little special because of the thickness of the alloy casting. There is a bigger distance between the little wings and the bakelite of the cap.
Regards, Frans.
Some work on the dry sump engine is the new cover on the the back of the head that I made, because I don't have one, complete with 2 1/8"BSP holes in for a temp sensor and the other for whatever.
Then I made a cover for the oil pump chain drive so that it doesn't spray the chain oil inside the engine compartment.
Got all the fittings in the pump and remote filter but there has been changes already and I'm sure a few more to come.
I wonder if there is someone out there that could help me with the oil cap and the little towers to pull the rocker cover down. The oil cap on a Gordini is a little special because of the thickness of the alloy casting. There is a bigger distance between the little wings and the bakelite of the cap.
Regards, Frans.
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