OUT AND ABOUT

[gilberthenry]

There was a 47 Packard that used to attend the concourse events held at Lilydale in the late seventies. All midnight blue and absolutely magnificent. In 48 they lowered the grille height by about half, and totally ruined the dignity of the whole car.

Hello Gerry, yes as you can see by my post just up from here the 1948 Packard is a strange looking beast as you alluded to.

CLUNES TRUCK SHOW 10Th March 2024

MOOMBA PARADE CANCELLED !!! Having lived the bulk of my life in Queensland these words don’t resonate with me as they might to the true blue Melbournian. Yes, it is hot.
Yesterday we left home in our 1929 Chrysler to head for the old gold town of Clunes where the Annual Truck & Vehicle Show is held. At between 7 and 8am it was a delight to be driving through the beautiful farming country of this region. We were hoping to see a Citroen DS which was to call in on its way to Tasmania.
Brother Michael turned up not long after us from Castlemaine in his 1950 Cyclops Rover as we were setting up our display. We were glad this event wasn’t cancelled because of the hot weather but didn’t expect a big turnout.
The mostly dry heat doesn’t bother me as does the often sauna conditions experienced in Queensland.
Surprisingly there was a decent lot of cars along with the many trucks and some buses on display. Our wind-up gramophone and trinkets of the past gave joy to many as they reminisced of days gone by. Close by in a shed the owner of a red Mark VII Jaguar showed us a two tone green Mark VIII Jaguar for sale at $10,000. The engine ticked over nicely which was fun to hear as these engines were the life blood of the XK120’s, 140’s and 150’s. It needed finishing off with upholstery and dash work which I suppose the young crowd would rather put in to an old Holden EK or more excitedly, a Monaro. To ask the youth of today to become excited about a Traction or DS is probably pushing it as much as this grand old car.

The journey home was without drama although a few steep long hills might have told a different story. The Hot day might not have helped to bring the DS to Clunes or it might be still travelling the highways from Queensland as I write this.

The Saturday a week before saw us travelling to the Ballan swap meet in our 1955 Light fifteen. I picked up some old blinker parts which allowed me to finish a project of replacing the 1970’s versions that were still on the car. Some after market blinkers get away with it but some do not.

For everyday transport the ’68 Safari and ID19 have been going well along with the Big six. We were out to a market in Kyneton for some olive oil and on the way home, in our 1954 Sunbeam Alpine, came across about 20 pre 1953 Indian motorbikes which again was good fun.

John

 

[gilberthenry]

Michael informed me that William has arrived in Victoria in his early 60's ID19. He is a friend of the person in the later DS who might have come to the Truck show.
So the Citroens are coming from far and wide - - heading for Tasmania.

Oh yes, that IS A LILO next to the traction in the last pic in the last post - - - picked up at the swap for $2 - - -
Ocean Grove here we come !!! - - - - even with grab handles & fins ! I reckon this could be a good addition to a display with the Safari one day.

Just had to put in these pics of the Indian bikes at Trentham last Saturday.

John

PS :- Michael tells me that he often started the Traction using the crank handle - - just for fun. I'll have to try it.

 

[gilberthenry]

MALDON SWAP 17th Mar. 2024

Off reasonably early to the Maldon swap. The weather was good as we parked our 1968 ID21F Safari amongst the other old cars in the specially reserved section.
We sell, or try to sell, old electrical parts through our website “authenticlightingandhardware” so we are always on the lookout. Many of these things are becoming thin on the ground but it is still fun to have a focus when going to these events all over the country.

On the way home we stopped in at Maldon for a cuppa so it was a great day. As we all know the different models of the DS range attract the public like - - honey to a bee.

John

 

[gilberthenry]

MORTLAKE FEDERATION PICNIC 24th March 2024

Mortlake has this annual car show in March which has a good country atmosphere. Cars mainly come from the Colac-Camperdown, Ballarat, Warnambool and Hamilton regions even with some coming from Geelong and Melbourne.
So that we didn’t have the long drive early in the morning we decided to go on the Saturday and stay there the night ready for the next day.
We called into Clunes for the annual book fair arriving there about 9.15am and picking up the odd bargain. The rest of the drive to Mortlake was taken up by stopping at the odd second hand shop and enjoying the Western District country side. As we were having some lunch and some tea from a thermos which we had packed we witnessed some vintage car enthusiasts pull over to check the load of a veteran car they were pulling on a trailer which would be unloaded at the event the next day. In convoy with them was a 1948 Dodge in beautiful condition. On the next day there was a similar Dodge to this one in very original condition but black. It had been a taxi and you could imagine it in the day with passengers getting in - - and out.
And so we stayed at the Mt Shadwell Hotel that night having quite a decent pub meal before retiring.
Arriving early next morning in our 1968 Citroen Safari we unpacked and cobbled up a bit of a display. We focused on picnic tables etc of the era for a bit of fun. Not long after Roy and Esther sidled up beside us in a great looking Dyane. They actually won a prize for this “crazy looking car”.
Needless to say it was a great day with music from a wonderful band as a back drop.
It was interesting to see an inline 4 cylinder Indian Bike parked next to a similar Indian Chief of similar vintage - - - both coming from Warnanbool.

John

 

[Robbo Renno]

Great report.

 

[gilberthenry]

Easter Monday 1st April, 2024

On Easter Monday a few of us were off to see the Easter Parade in the historic town of Maldon situated in the central Goldfields of Victoria.
The Castlemaine Car Club was given an area at the top of town called the Beehive Reserve to display some cars so we were eager to be part of the celebrations.
Janet and I went for tea and cake at a little café on the opposite side to Le Sel (its doors now closed forever) before the parade was to start and loved looking across to the beautiful old buildings for which Maldon is famous.
The street parade was simply wonderful, the locals putting in an energy and vibrancy which showed in the quality of the floats and rolling exhibits. There was the Maldon Brass Band, Scottish bagpipe band, penny farthing bicycles, Brendon Baker’s wonderful steam engine chugging up the main street, a horse-drawn wagon from nearby Sandy Creek Clydesdales, and a Chinese dragon display. Also in the parade were a good turnout of old cars including a 2CV van and a beautiful DS.
Afterwards we strolled down to the Maldon Vintage Machinery and Museum to look at some wonderful displays in Adam Torey’s shed complex before heading for home.
Apart from our 1955 Light 15 some cars were - - a lovely 1938 Austin Seven Ruby, a 1928 Chevrolet and brothers’ Michael and Hans came in a 1924 Hupmobile and a late 50’s Humber Hawk.

John & Janet.

PS :- Brother Michael received a call from friend, William Hastie who had just returned home to Brisbane from the Tasmanian Citroen Cit-In. He had a great time driving his Australian assembled 1962 ID19.

 

[gilberthenry]

GUILDFORD CAR SHOW 7th April 2024

This last Sunday we took our 1928 Packard “Cabriolet” to the Guildford car show and spotted Ken’s beautiful green 1922 Citroen B2. Ken’s health is not great so he has decided to sell this car. He’s only just come back from the Tasmanian Cit-In where he took the car.
Michael came in his yellow 1923 B2 so it was fun to have two of these rare cars at an event.
Michael also has the black 1923 B2 tourer and an un-finished B2 van so he is becoming a bit of an expert on this model as he often drives them around Castlemaine.

I have listed Ken’s car in the CARS FOR SALE COLUMN.

John

 

[gilberthenry]

MUCKLEFORD MACHINERY Apr. 2024

Having a day out we went to the Maldon market this last Sunday 14th April picking up some treats to have later in the day.
After, we stopped at the Maldon footy field where there were a few old cars.
We were in our 1968 ID19b and brother Michael in his 1923 B2 tourer. We then made our way to Muckleford where there was a machinery event over the weekend next to the station. Catching up with friends in this setting was good fun.
Then, off to Castlemaine through the back roads.
Seeing the B2 travelling these country roads at such a speed is a credit to Michael who has got this car running beautifully.

A great day, John

 

[gilberthenry]

We just came back from a short break along the Great Ocean Road in our ’92 Nissan Patrol TD42 Diesel. Although this vehicle would seem ancient to a lot of people it is, for us - - modern day cruising. We will probably take our ’68 Safari to “Drive Back in Time” in a few weeks at Beechworth but the Patrol takes us away on the odd “non car event holiday”.

Today, Sunday 21st April we went with some from the Castlemaine Club on a bit of a tour to the local mineral springs around Daylesford.

The fun part for me was having a drive of one of brother Michael’s P6 Rovers this being a 1974 model with the 6 cylinder engine. It drove beautifully but what made it all the more fun was following our 1974 D Special with Janet at the wheel.
I don’t often see a DS on the road because we are usually in it rather that witnessing how great these cars look on the road.

John.

 

[seasink]

Lovely P6. I wasn't aware 6 cylinder ones were to be got here. Import?

When you look at the way the bodies are put together, and the dashboard design, the DS and P6 have much in common. In fact the Rover was an innovative car.

 

[fritzelhund]

Lovely P6. I wasn't aware 6 cylinder ones were to be got here. Import?

When you look at the way the bodies are put together, and the dashboard design, the DS and P6 have much in common. In fact the Rover was an innovative car.

Twaddle. The theory of unstressed body panels on a pressed metal base unit ( with bolted in glass screens ) is the only thing a D and a Rover P6 have in common. One could argue about alloy bonnet and boot panels ( but the D went back to steel early on ).
The P6 is rear drive, The P6 has coil springs, the front being a strange layout with the upper wishbone using a pushrod on a horizontal coil spring. The upper wishbone pivots on the firewall while the lower is conventional. Suspension mounts are conventional rubber bushes. There are NO rubber bushes in a D .. the suspension arms pivot in tapered roller bearings ... both the front wishbones and the rear trailing arms. The rear brakes on a D are very simple drums without even a handbrake cable complication. The P6 has a DeDion rear axle ( which has to vary its track width ) because the rear drive shafts are fixed length. The DeDion tube is an oil filled device with a bellows to keep the oil uncontaminated.
The P6 rear discs are next to the differential ( and very inaccessible ) because of it.
The P6 engines are not at all like a D which uses wet cylinder liners. the Rover 4 cylinder used an ancient design for the block with huge side plates. There was also a remote almost external oil pump with armoured oil supply lines. The 4 cyl Rover did have an overhead camshaft. D engines were all low camshaft overhead valves with pushrods. The Rover V8 was nothing like the 4 cylinder offerings, being dry linered in an alloy block casting. The Rover had a gear ( I forget the design name ) steering box also mounted on the firewall, in orger to negate the risk of a steering column penetrating the cabin. The Ds uses a transverse rack and pinion mounted to the frame at about the front axle distance.
The Rover had superior "coachwork" in my opinion, door hinges are more robust as are the fixings for the glass screens, but was equally susceptible to hidden rust on salted roads. The Rover had a superior dash I believe with padded crushable glove boxes below the dashboard to protect occupant's knees in collision.
I could never consider the thin pressed steel lower dash of a an ID as being very crashworthy. Rover's almost minimal spoke steering shared the crushability feature of a Ds's single spoke. great instrument visability in both and both used stalks to control lighting functions ( in a period when floor mounted dip switches were common ).
The Rover also had seat squabs that were friction set ( ie using a clutch device for rake adjustment ) whereas the DS uses old style ratchets for seat backrests. The clutch design was supposed to offer better protection for the occupants in a rear ender. Rover did make ergonomic progress with big tactile function knobs that the driver could differentiate by feel, many criticised the Ds for randomly scattered knobs ( not a criticism I can agree with ).
The P6 was a brilliant bit of innovatve thinking BUT comparisons with the DS should be viewed in light of the facts, something the motoring journalists then and now seem unable to digest.
After ownership of a 2000, I retreated to the purity of design thought and superior dirt and country road functionality of an ID. Even in the lowest spec form, the Citroen was always one gear better at touring speeds, where the Rover would need 4th, the high geared ID would still happily be in third.
I expect criticism for this ... the Rover's weird front suspension design did not function well in large amplitude situations with the front wheels becoming seriously into negative camber over large spoon drains and compromising stability, It was a virtual swing axle when pressed into long depressions at country road speeds.... while the rear wheels always had to remain parallel.

 

[fritzelhund]

Rover P6 Design Innovations, by Bill Wardlow

Rover P6 Design Innovations

www.britishv8.org

Hope this works as it shows the P6 front and rear suspension designs in full glorious colour, not just exploded views.

 

[seasink]

Suffice to say that the Rover engineers (it was an engineer designed car) kept a close eye on Citroen. Both companies had to put up with old engines. Rover acquired and adapted the American aluminium V8 and got something decent and very smooth running. Imagine if the DS had ever got a really modern engine.

I drove and maintained a P6 for years. I agree with much of what you say, but I had no trouble with the front suspension stability on poor roads. My wife was happy to propel the thing over rough dairy paddocks. I took it onto fire trails. Steering was excellent. The rear inboard disc brake pads were very easily changed if you disconnected the drive shafts, just a few accessible bolts. Why people didn't do this and struggled is a mystery.

Sadly BL took over Rover and clever design disappeared. The SD1 looked more than a little like a CX as planned by Rover, but all the innovation under the skin evaporated. It even had a live axle, no better than a Falcon..

 

[fritzelhund]

View attachment 240349

 

[Greenpeace]

When I had my P6s I could changed the rear pads in 1/2 an hour without even trying hard.
Just unbolt the diff's cradle and lower the assembly down on a jack, you don't even have to undo the driveshafts.
The Rover workshop manual would have you dicking around for hours with special tools and double jointed wrists to complete the task.
An Austin 1800 clutch change was something like 6 hours by the book. The BMC mechanics (my father was one) could do them in under 2 hours by NOT following the factory procedure.

 

[Greenpeace]

Sadly BL took over Rover and clever design disappeared. The SD1 looked more than a little like a CX as planned by Rover, but all the innovation under the skin evaporated. It even had a live axle, no better than a Falcon..

The SD1 rear axle design was live, but it's location system differed to a Watt linkage Falcon (XE on) in that it also had a torque tube arrangement with its own crossmember that took much of the stresses.
Part of the Rover patent application (which was lodged in 1971) stipulated that the torque tube, radius rod and Watt linkage pivot bushes must all lay on the same plane.
The Rover design was a lot more engineered than the Falcons', but then, I guess the Falcon didn't have a very hard act to follow in the leaf spring XD.
This is an excerpt from an article by one of the engineers on the SD1 design team.
I guess at the end of the day one Rover rear axle design was used in very successful British and European touring cars, and the other wasn't.

 

[Greenpeace]

The P6 engines are not at all like a D which uses wet cylinder liners. the Rover 4 cylinder used an ancient design for the block with huge side plates. There was also a remote almost external oil pump with armoured oil supply lines. The 4 cyl Rover did have an overhead camshaft. D engines were all low camshaft overhead valves with pushrods. The Rover V8 was nothing like the 4 cylinder offerings, being dry linered in an alloy block casting. The Rover had a gear ( I forget the design name ) steering box also mounted on the firewall, in orger to negate the risk of a steering column penetrating the cabin.

The 2000 engine in the P6 was a clean slate, modern design. The thin steel plates were for light weight, not some leftover anachronism from a distant past. The attached excerpt outlines much of the engine's design features, it doesn't mention however that the engine was also perfectly square (which was very rare at the time), having the same bore and stroke, and that in TC (twin carb) form it was rated at 124 BHP SAE @ 5500 rpm. Every engine was also dyno tested at the factory prior to fitting it into the car.
The early P6s' had an Adwest steering box, and the later ones Burman, however they were both worm and sector style boxes. The Adwest is reputed to have superior adjustability.

 

[fritzelhund]

There is a lot in the wording in the article above. A "skeletal" engine block means huge old fashioned side plates that act like side walls to keep the coolant around the inner block. They have become troublesome in later years.

The SD1 rear axle design was live, but it's location system differed to a Watt linkage Falcon (XE on) in that it also had a torque tube arrangement with its own crossmember that took much of the stresses.
Part of the Rover patent application (which was lodged in 1971) stipulated that the torque tube, radius rod and Watt linkage pivot bushes must all lay on the same plane.
The Rover design was a lot more engineered than the Falcons', but then, I guess the Falcon didn't have a very hard act to follow in the leaf spring XD.
This is an excerpt from an article by one of the engineers on the SD1 design team.
I guess at the end of the day one Rover rear axle design was used in very successful British and European touring cars, and the other wasn't.


View attachment 240361

All of which is very Peugeot 403 and 404, except they used a Panhard rod to keep the sprung bits "central" in the chassis. It is also rather like my Dad's old 1947 Buick straight eight, torque tube and coil springs. The much vaunted Holden Gemini ( a world car design used by many GM labels ) also used the torque tube layout.

 

[fritzelhund]

The 2000 engine in the P6 was a clean slate, modern design. The thin steel plates were for light weight, not some leftover anachronism from a distant past. The attached excerpt outlines much of the engine's design features, it doesn't mention however that the engine was also perfectly square (which was very rare at the time), having the same bore and stroke, and that in TC (twin carb) form it was rated at 124 BHP SAE @ 5500 rpm. Every engine was also dyno tested at the factory prior to fitting it into the car.
The early P6s' had an Adwest steering box, and the later ones Burman, however they were both worm and sector style boxes. The Adwest is reputed to have superior adjustability.


View attachment 240364

The two stage chain drive went from crankshaft to the almost external oil pump which had external piping .. and then to the cylinder head and the camshaft/valve gear. I had forgotten about the details of the combustion chamber design... all of which sounds like it makes the DS "tractor engine" a bit old hat .... I recall a friend at the time had a Triumph 2000 ( OZ assembled ) with 4 speed and electric overdrive on 3 and 4 .. it proved a much simpler machine and much better suited to our bush road travel. The doors didn't have the Rover clunk though.
I think the performance of a much larger engine statement is a bit of journalese overstatement. A 2000, especially with a 3 speed ( BorgWarner 35 ??? ) couldn't pull the skin off a custard. The bucket tappets were a pain to "adjust" as shims of varying thickness ( which assumed you had some, or had access to a range of thicknesses ) had to be installed and camshaft lobe clearance maintained. Hours of work compared with old fashioned adjustable pushrods.
I still have the genuine Rover workshop manual, and it even details the variations in the several exhaust systems. The flexible downpipe to muffler of a D being something of a fatigue trap as well as a road debris and mud collector that limited its life. It is interesting to revisit and read of the differing solutions brought to the same problem.

 

[Greenpeace]

There is a lot in the wording in the article above. A "skeletal" engine block means huge old fashioned side plates that act like side walls to keep the coolant around the inner block. They have become troublesome in later years.

All of which is very Peugeot 403 and 404, except they used a Panhard rod to keep the sprung bits "central" in the chassis. It is also rather like my Dad's old 1947 Buick straight eight, torque tube and coil springs. The much vaunted Holden Gemini ( a world car design used by many GM labels ) also used the torque tube layout.

My 1926 Rover was torque tube with a ladder bar. The comment wasn't made to indicate the torque tube was a "cutting edge" design in an SD1, rather to highlight that its live axle arrangement was somewhat different to a Falcon.
The Falcons had beefy control arms in comparison to an SD1, yet were prone to chopping bushes out (ask any ex taxi driver).
A telltale sign that something wasn't quite right with their layout.