Hehehehe!
Way ahead of the times, Citroen. Maybe they would not have gone bankrupt so many times if they sold their cars as kits.
My new challenge - 1964 ID19F Safari
- Thread starter bleudanube
- Start date
Way ahead of the times, Citroen. Maybe they would not have gone bankrupt so many times if they sold their cars as kits.
Well, I think I just saw white mice … the cooling issues have settled again. I probably just had too much coolant in the system. So I went to a car meet BBQ last Sunday and one of the guys there took a few really nice shots of the cars in attendance - including the Safari. Too nice not to share:
The ‘white mice’ have returned…. My cooling system is still pushing out fluid via the radiator cap. Had to fill up about 2-3 litres yesterday as the temperature was getting too high - that’s after a few long trips over the past month.
The cap is a 4psi one (Standard Tridon replacement cap). No other leaks in the system and you can see the coolant coming out of the overflow tube at times. I tried a 7psi cap and the system didn’t like it at all, it started leaking from the top coolant hose. Waterpump is new, radiator checked and clean, new thermostat with now a 2mm hole drilled into it…
Anyone any clever ideas? Wrong cap rating? Creep up to a 5 psi one?
Not a big deal to watch it and add coolant, just not something that should keep happening…
Sven
The cap is a 4psi one (Standard Tridon replacement cap). No other leaks in the system and you can see the coolant coming out of the overflow tube at times. I tried a 7psi cap and the system didn’t like it at all, it started leaking from the top coolant hose. Waterpump is new, radiator checked and clean, new thermostat with now a 2mm hole drilled into it…
Anyone any clever ideas? Wrong cap rating? Creep up to a 5 psi one?
Not a big deal to watch it and add coolant, just not something that should keep happening…
Sven
Dash temp gauge says temp normal at all times?
What does the book say, what is the normal pressure in the system?
Have the cooling system pressure tested. That'll find leaks, especially a weeping head gasket.
Worrying is that fluid comes out, that means excessive pressure (whatever that value is). Normally, if you only loose coolant the system bleeds itself and eventually you see a low level in the expansion bottle but I don't know how your system is designed. If it is designed to self bleed, then excessive pressure can points at a head gasket failure. If not, it could be just trapped air expanding when hot.
What does the book say, what is the normal pressure in the system?
Have the cooling system pressure tested. That'll find leaks, especially a weeping head gasket.
Worrying is that fluid comes out, that means excessive pressure (whatever that value is). Normally, if you only loose coolant the system bleeds itself and eventually you see a low level in the expansion bottle but I don't know how your system is designed. If it is designed to self bleed, then excessive pressure can points at a head gasket failure. If not, it could be just trapped air expanding when hot.
is it overheating? why dont' you fit an engine watchdog and see if its actually getting warm. You might have combustion gasses in the cooling system pushing the fluid out
I've driven ID19's on hot days, they can get warm (over 200degrees) if pushed hard ... but never show no signs of overheating.
Or you could take it for a good drive and when it starts pushing out coolant check with an infrared thermometer various points of the cooling system. This would probably immediately show a thermostat not opening because you would have some significant difference in temperature before/after the thermostat.
I am sure it has been mentioned before, but a quick search did not show!
These cars were not fitted with an expansion tank (catch tank) unlike the later cars. It is possible to fit a simple, non pressurised tank attached to the overflow spigot under the pressure cap, but would require a different cap to enable reclamation of lost fluid.
The earlier radiators, such as yours, were designed to spill any excess coolant on the ground. With this system the top tank should never be filled when checked cold (nor opened when hot!). Leaving 25-30mm airspace above the cold level will allow expansion air space. Any excess fluid will be expelled until the correct level is remaining.
These cars were not fitted with an expansion tank (catch tank) unlike the later cars. It is possible to fit a simple, non pressurised tank attached to the overflow spigot under the pressure cap, but would require a different cap to enable reclamation of lost fluid.
The earlier radiators, such as yours, were designed to spill any excess coolant on the ground. With this system the top tank should never be filled when checked cold (nor opened when hot!). Leaving 25-30mm airspace above the cold level will allow expansion air space. Any excess fluid will be expelled until the correct level is remaining.
Note: later cars, with larger engine, were equipped with a more efficient radiator with a fully pressurised expansion tank mounted above the water pump. A different, "cross-flow" radiator was used with the pressure/fill cap fitted on the tank. The later radiator system could be retrofitted but requires a different bottom radiator hose.
Michael that's a very good point - but Sven is having to add 2 - 3 litres! Surely that is not just normal expansion losses?
Sven also mentions that engine temperature was higher than normal until he refilled the radiator - which again should not happen with just normal expansion losses...
Agreed, but once expension tanks were mentioned I thought a little background info was needed. It is really general knowledge, though pressurised expansion tanks were introduced with the Renault R4 and R8 long ago 
(1961 and 1962)
(1961 and 1962)
When the radiator is full, the car runs nicely without overheating (I did install an engine guard system, which has been excellent and is easy to watch). The IDs never had an overflow tank or a temp gauge and I’d rather trust the engine guard.
As the fluid level drops the temperature of course goes up… which tells me: time to check and refill.
No water in the oil, so I don’t think the head gasket is faulty. I will swap the cap again… maybe that helps…
As the fluid level drops the temperature of course goes up… which tells me: time to check and refill.
No water in the oil, so I don’t think the head gasket is faulty. I will swap the cap again… maybe that helps…
I had a 21 motor long ago with similar behavior, though not as extreme. It was solved with a head gasket change though I also had head skimmed and cleaned plus it was due for exhaust valves and guides. Put a new water pump too. So no definitive solution, but most likely head gasket!
Fortunately it is a fairly simple home mechanic job, though the head went to an old time specialist.
Fortunately it is a fairly simple home mechanic job, though the head went to an old time specialist.
Hi Sven,
4 psi is the right rating for the long stroke engine cooling system. I am not a fan of running cars without a thermostat, but in this case it might be worth trying to see if the car still overheats without a thermostat fitted. If not, the new thermostat could be faulty. 4 psi is almost pressure-less, less than 0.3 bar, so the boiling point of the coolant would be very low. Cheers, Erik.
4 psi is the right rating for the long stroke engine cooling system. I am not a fan of running cars without a thermostat, but in this case it might be worth trying to see if the car still overheats without a thermostat fitted. If not, the new thermostat could be faulty. 4 psi is almost pressure-less, less than 0.3 bar, so the boiling point of the coolant would be very low. Cheers, Erik.
The car doesn’t overheat as such, it gets hot as it loses coolant. When the coolant level is correct it runs at steady temps, even on long trips.
Head gasket: the engine has been completely overhauled as part of the resto. I replaced the gasket when the rocker stud broke and Idiot me undid the bolts… it has run maybe 2000klm all up.
Can a head gasket leak gases into the coolant without leaking coolant into the oil? Wouldn’t have thought so…
If the breach in the head gasket is at the right spot (e.g. between the water jacket and the cylinder) you could have combustion gases entering the coolant without getting coolant in the oil. Possibly you can borrow or buy a combustion gas detector. They are pretty simple to use. You put a coolant sample into the test tube. If there are combustion gases dissolved in the coolant, the reagent will react and change color (e.g. from blue to yellow). Here is one example. https://www.amazon.com/UView-560000-Combustion-Leak-Tester/dp/B000NPDL76
Sure can I'm afraid. I've had a few cars over the years pushing combustion into the cooling system without leaking coolant into the oil.
Mercedes 280, Toyota Cressida and Hillman Hunter are three that spring immediately to mind. Generally, (but not always) if you have this kind of leak, a bit of coolant will find its way into the offending cylinder when the car is cold as well, resulting in a misfire on startup for a few (or several) seconds until the engine blows the spark plug dry.
As you only have a 4 psi cap it may not have enough cooling system pressure to force coolant back into the cylinder when the engine is off. Depends how bad the gasket is.
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so you have a coolant leak somewhere .... hopefully there is evidence of leakage somewhere, otherwise its being burnt .... do you have one clean sparkplug ?
.... hopefully there is evidence of leakage somewhere, otherwise its being burnt .... do you have one clean sparkplug ?
Sure can I'm afraid. I've had a few cars over the years pushing combustion into the cooling system without leaking coolant into the oil.
Mercedes 280, Toyota Cressida and Hillman Hunter are three that spring immediately to mind. Generally, (but not always) if you have this kind of leak, a bit of coolant will find its way into the offending cylinder when the car is cold as well, resulting in a misfire on startup for a few (or several) seconds until the engine blows the spark plug dry.
As you only have a 4 psi cap it may not have enough cooling system pressure to force coolant back into the cylinder when the engine is off. Depends how bad the gasket is.
The cooling system pressure may not be enough to push coolant into the cylinder but that may not be necessary either. If the piston is in the right position and both valves closed, the vacuum in the cylinder can suck the coolant in. Not sure what the valve timing is for these engines but it can happen.
I too have had this type of head gasket failure and can't tell why it happened but it did.
I would try a re-torque of the cylinder head bolts and take it from there. Right now it does shape up as a head gasket failure.
But just before we jump to conclusions, take the plugs out before you start the car next and see if you have any coolant in the cylinders.
On running the engine, the exhaust might smell like coolant too if the leak is significant enough. How long does it take to go through 2 litres of coolant?