My new challenge - 1964 ID19F Safari

[bleudanube]

Thanks gents, I will hunt down the head gasket leak route some more… as mentioned, I changed it not long after commissioning the engine late last years when the rocker stud broke. Will retighten the head bolts again to be sure.

I will check for fluid and see what the spark plugs look like. Could another tell tail be water spitting from the exhaust at start up? I always assumed it is normal condensation, but maybe there’s more to it?

The engine runs rough for about 30 sec or so as I start it on full choke… again: I assumed that’s normal due to the choke, but maybe any water in the cylinder adds to it…

To lose two litres of coolant it took maybe 4-5 trips of varying lengths. From a day trip to a couple of hours to runs around the block. Maybe 400klm all up? Guessing only…

Let’s see what I can find.

Sven

 

[Greenpeace]

The engine runs rough for about 30 sec or so as I start it on full choke… again: I assumed that’s normal due to the choke, but maybe any water in the cylinder adds to it

If it is running rough and then suddenly smooths out without doing anything else, choke adjustment etc, I would be leaning towards a misfire caused by coolant in a cylinder/s.

 

[gilberthenry]

Thanks gents, I will hunt down the head gasket leak route some more… as mentioned, I changed it not long after commissioning the engine late last years when the rocker stud broke. Will retighten the head bolts again to be sure.

I will check for fluid and see what the spark plugs look like. Could another tell tail be water spitting from the exhaust at start up? I always assumed it is normal condensation, but maybe there’s more to it?

The engine runs rough for about 30 sec or so as I start it on full choke… again: I assumed that’s normal due to the choke, but maybe any water in the cylinder adds to it…

To lose two litres of coolant it took maybe 4-5 trips of varying lengths. From a day trip to a couple of hours to runs around the block. Maybe 400klm all up? Guessing only…

Let’s see what I can find.

Sven

Hello Sven, I put a bit in my D Special head post. I'm sure you are awake to this but - - ckecking the dipstick, is the oil milky or green with coolant ??

Good luck, John

 

[schlitzaugen]

He did say above the oil doesn't show any weird signs. That's why we are all chasing a leak into the cylinders.

 

[bleudanube]

If it is running rough and then suddenly smooths out without doing anything else, choke adjustment etc, I would be leaning towards a misfire caused by coolant in a cylinder/s.

Maybe should have elaborated a little more on my choke procedure. When the car is cold, I pull the choke fully out and crank the engine for about 2-3 seconds and stop again for a second or two … then crank again and the engine fires right up. I then push the choke in 80-90% and drive out of the garage. 50m down the road I push it all the way in… and any rough running disappears after a couple of shifts as the engine warms up. I would have thought that is pretty good for the long stroke engines…

Anyhow, I will do some more sleuthing to see what I can find in the next few days.

 

[schlitzaugen]

Water out the tailpipe on startup is normal. Condensation forms inside on the cold metal but if there is any coolant leak into the engine your smoke will smell funny (like coolant). Depending on how bad the leak is, of course.

 

[Johno1]

Thanks gents, I will hunt down the head gasket leak route some more… as mentioned, I changed it not long after commissioning the engine late last years when the rocker stud broke. Will retighten the head bolts again to be sure.

I will check for fluid and see what the spark plugs look like. Could another tell tail be water spitting from the exhaust at start up? I always assumed it is normal condensation, but maybe there’s more to it?

The engine runs rough for about 30 sec or so as I start it on full choke… again: I assumed that’s normal due to the choke, but maybe any water in the cylinder adds to it…

To lose two litres of coolant it took maybe 4-5 trips of varying lengths. From a day trip to a couple of hours to runs around the block. Maybe 400klm all up? Guessing only…

Let’s see what I can find.

Sven

Not on a Citroen but a friend had water coming out the exhaust from a compromised gasket. Recently replaced it and water stopped.

 

[bleudanube]

Well…. You guys were on the money - unfortunately! The last time I took the rocker cover off to see whether there is any water in the oil was about three weeks ago. All good and since then I checked the dipstick only which showed no cloudiness (and still doesn’t).

So, this morning: cover off and … yuk… definitely water in the oil. Sparkplugs one and two were wet after a couple of turns of the engine. So the head gasket is the culprit.

So I did the same as John is just describing in his post: undid each headbolt in sequence and retightened to 60NM. Not sure this will fix the leak, but not much lost for now as I don’t have a new spare gasket anyway. Cleaned the cover and put it all back together. Ran the car around the blocks and parked it up.

Tomorrow I will check the plugs and cover again - let’s hope the tightening improves / fixes the leak, but I am doubtful. On the other hand, the gasket that is in the engine now is an old asbestos one from Steely… maybe they have more “give” than the new versions.

Anyway, at least I found the issue. Will update!

 

[Greenpeace]

Well…. You guys were on the money - unfortunately! The last time I took the rocker cover off to see whether there is any water in the oil was about three weeks ago. All good and since then I checked the dipstick only which showed no cloudiness (and still doesn’t).

So, this morning: cover off and … yuk… definitely water in the oil. Sparkplugs one and two were wet after a couple of turns of the engine. So the head gasket is the culprit.

So I did the same as John is just describing in his post: undid each headbolt in sequence and retightened to 60NM. Not sure this will fix the leak, but not much lost for now as I don’t have a new spare gasket anyway. Cleaned the cover and put it all back together. Ran the car around the blocks and parked it up.

Tomorrow I will check the plugs and cover again - let’s hope the tightening improves / fixes the leak, but I am doubtful. On the other hand, the gasket that is in the engine now is an old asbestos one from Steely… maybe they have more “give” than the new versions.

Anyway, at least I found the issue. Will update!

My brother had a newly built Holden 308 do the same thing. I said to him when we were assembling it that we should coat the head gaskets. He didn't want to do.
A month or so later it started giving head gasket symptoms. We pulled it down and the head gaskets hadn't stuck at all. We coated them with aviation cement then put it back together and it was still running perfectly when he sold it a few years later.

 

[bleudanube]

“Hadn’t stuck at all”…??? What do you mean with that? Stuck to the head?

 

[Greenpeace]

“Hadn’t stuck at all”…??? What do you mean with that? Stuck to the head?

They looked like they had just come out of the packet. They were the type with the blue bead built into them that is meant to heat up and adhere to the head.

People can do what they like I guess, I know plenty will say you don't need any sealer.

I've built dozens of different engines, I always coat the gasket/s and have never had a head gasket issue with one I've built.
I've only had problems with head gaskets failing in vehicles I've bought.
I'll stick with what works for me.

 

[schlitzaugen]

Sven, when you rebuilt the engine, did you check the head and block for flatness? I don't remember.

The kind of gaskets Greenpeace mentions should not have any issues unless there is some problem with the deck and/or the head. After all that is how manufacturers build them.

Other than that, the only thing that can lead to such problems (assuming deck and head are perfectly flat) is an incorrect bolt tightening sequence.

 

[Greenpeace]

The kind of gaskets Greenpeace mentions should not have any issues unless there is some problem with the deck and/or the head. After all that is how manufactures build them.

Correct, in the case of the 308 the block was decked and the heads were shaved. The heads were torqued down correctly and yet the gaskets still leaked.

 

[bleudanube]

What “aviation cement” did you use for the gasket? Just in case… I still have the first gasket that i used for the rebuild. I tried the silver paint trick at the time but it didn’t seal up, so bought a new gasket that is in the engine now. But maybe with the sealant I can McGyver something up if need be until a new gasket arrives.

No coolant leakage into the combustion chamber over night, so so went for a drive this morning and checked again after the drive (spark plugs out and spin the engine via the starter) - still no coolant.

But the coolant level seems to have dropped a few mm…. Not a good sign, but maybe it just settled somehow…

Anyway, I will keep monitoring it for a while and see what comes of it… might change the oil as well, to be sure.

Sven

 

[Greenpeace]

What “aviation cement” did you use for the gasket? Just in case… I still have the first gasket that i used for the rebuild. I tried the silver paint trick at the time but it didn’t seal up, so bought a new gasket that is in the engine now. But maybe with the sealant I can McGyver something up if need be until a new gasket arrives.

View attachment 210133

No coolant leakage into the combustion chamber over night, so so went for a drive this morning and checked again after the drive (spark plugs out and spin the engine via the starter) - still no coolant.

But the coolant level seems to have dropped a few mm…. Not a good sign, but maybe it just settled somehow…

Anyway, I will keep monitoring it for a while and see what comes of it… might change the oil as well, to be sure.

Sven

I usually use Permatex liquid, but whatever the brand they seem to all have the same formula.

 

[bleudanube]

This stuff? Brush on, not a spray?

 

[Greenpeace]

This stuff? Brush on, not a spray?

View attachment 210136

Yes the brush on, just a light coat, can't say I've ever seen the spray on one let alone used it.
The only spray on head gasket cement I've used was Hylomar, it did the job, but that was on a copper gasket.

 

[schlitzaugen]

I have used Hylomar too. Spray can. Good stuff, but for really tight tolerance. Should work if your head and block are flat (but then again, the original gasket should have worked too).

 

[Trading Estate]

I like the spray on copper stuff. Of course you can get a milkiness under the rocker cover caused by condensation mixing withe oil, but your plugs are the give-away.

 

[bleudanube]

Well, after retightening the bolts and another long drive more coolant disappeared via the engine, so I bought the little can of Permatex Aviation gasket maker and started pulling the head off again…. Not really a difficult job, just awkward as the engine is so far back in the engine bay. Anyway, head off, block and head cleaned and checked.

The gasket wasn’t able to seal as it got pinched between pistons 1 and 2 - not sure how, but certainly obvious.

So not able to reuse that gasket. So I used the one that I had in after the rebuild until I loosened the head studs due to broken rocker stud. Brushed the sealant onto both sides and put it all back together.

Filled up the coolant again and changed the oil. Started the engine and warmed it up. It was getting a bit late to go for a drive. Hopefully that new /old gasket will do the job… don’t really want to do this again.