I agree. No more troubles and it looks original
My new challenge - 1964 ID19F Safari
- Thread starter bleudanube
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Distributor is good now and my spare points and condenser have arrived, so backup is secured. But a 123 is on the list one day.
My electrical problem of the melted interior light wire is much worse than I expected: one of the connectors at the rear light must have shortened against the chassis or else - the wire is melted the whole length, all 5 m of it… so today I pulled out the whole rear loom, opened it up and tomorrow I will be replacing the wire (and potentially one or two others that may have been affected) and wrap it up again. So unnecessary… bugger…
My electrical problem of the melted interior light wire is much worse than I expected: one of the connectors at the rear light must have shortened against the chassis or else - the wire is melted the whole length, all 5 m of it… so today I pulled out the whole rear loom, opened it up and tomorrow I will be replacing the wire (and potentially one or two others that may have been affected) and wrap it up again. So unnecessary… bugger…
That is really unpleasant. What a chunk of bad luck.
I would suspect the light fitting that cable was connecting to.
Say what you will about originality and all that, but you're using 70 years or so old fittings. Seems like they should not be taken for granted and even if they're good, technology has moved on. I would suggest you find some remote triggered LED lights powered by a local AA battery or two, or at least that's what I would do. More light, less trouble and you don't have to pull the headlining off every time the light don't work or it burns the wires.
As for the dizzy, the 123 system I think is overkill. A hall effect sensor in the dizzy does exactly the same thing, it cost a lot less and doesn't need you to screw around with software. Truly set and forget. If you had a performance engine that would squeeze some more HP out of a different advance curve, yes, the 123 would be justified.
I would suspect the light fitting that cable was connecting to.
Say what you will about originality and all that, but you're using 70 years or so old fittings. Seems like they should not be taken for granted and even if they're good, technology has moved on. I would suggest you find some remote triggered LED lights powered by a local AA battery or two, or at least that's what I would do. More light, less trouble and you don't have to pull the headlining off every time the light don't work or it burns the wires.
As for the dizzy, the 123 system I think is overkill. A hall effect sensor in the dizzy does exactly the same thing, it cost a lot less and doesn't need you to screw around with software. Truly set and forget. If you had a performance engine that would squeeze some more HP out of a different advance curve, yes, the 123 would be justified.
Sven I know you wish to keep you car original but seeing how you are having to work on the loom anyway why don't you fit an inline fuse into the origin point of the burnt circuit you are replacing? You would easily get away with a 5 amp fuse just to protect the interior light circuit and who's going to to pull the glove box out to see it anyway?
Not sure how many watts your dome light bulbs add up to but 1 amp = 12 watts so you may even get away with less than a 5 amp fuse.
As you have found out it can sometimes take a while to pop a 30 amp fuse.
Disagree on the 123. You get years of trouble free, maintenance free running, the unit is new so you don’t have to worry about an old dizzy with worn components, and the basic 123 has no software to screw around with. Simply install it, time it and never look in that place again. My ds runs smoother, not so sure about the claims of power gain
I like the simplicity of the old points system. A 123 would be brilliant too. If I'm stuck on the side of the road with no spark, scratching my head, I'd much prefer there to be a simple points ignition system though 
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Agree, I might do that… for safety sake. Looking at the damage it did I am somewhat lucky it didn’t catch fire or smouldered any adjacent parts.
On another note: has anyone been able to buy the original 4mm Citroen bullet connectors? All I found were UK suppliers - at a ridiculous price. Does anyone in Australia supply those?
Nobody has any of the original quality.
The modern vaguely similar ones are cheaply made but expensively supplied.
I have bought them from Der Franzose, but I'm sure others offer similar.
The coloured sleeves supplied are pretty well rubbish, and the outer black covers are too short, and not elastic enough.
I replace them with pieces cut from rubber vacuum/washer hose. The elasticity is needed to maintain pressure on the connection. And the length is needed to properly protect the metal from contacting each other or metal bits causing shorts.
The modern vaguely similar ones are cheaply made but expensively supplied.
I have bought them from Der Franzose, but I'm sure others offer similar.
The coloured sleeves supplied are pretty well rubbish, and the outer black covers are too short, and not elastic enough.
I replace them with pieces cut from rubber vacuum/washer hose. The elasticity is needed to maintain pressure on the connection. And the length is needed to properly protect the metal from contacting each other or metal bits causing shorts.
I got mine from Wurth. Happy with the quality, although the male end has an indent about half way along. Often you only need the female end i.e. light bulb connections and switches etc. But you can buy the the male ends on their own from o/s.
I used heat shrink for the colour coding and fully covered the female end for safety. Then a bit of black rubber tube as per the original.
Investment in the correct crimps (from Amazon oz) paid for itself many times over - no wastage.
Jaycar list 4mm bullet connectors on their website. They have ones with a soft silicone sleeve. Not sure if they're exactly what you're chasing?
That's exactly what the hall sensor does. Dizzy wear etc, becomes irrelevant. I have used them in all my cars with points for decades without problems. In fact, the 123 system relies on a hall effect sender too, the rest is just bling. Quite expensive bling too at 550$ vs 90$ for the sensor alone.
Shane, the Hall effect systems (there are many though all the same) are pretty much bullet proof. If you find you don't have spark, it's not because of the sensor (which is the only part you use to replace the points). They carry a small current, so there's no danger of burning out. The sensor is also very easily checked and it is a simple "go-no go" check too. If the sensor dies it's dead. If not, it's good. No inbetween.
No I've seen theirs, they are the style with a shorter, bullet with a bulge, and a short sleeve with single slit and a slight groove to engage the bulge.Jaycar list 4mm bullet connectors on their website. They have ones with a soft silicone sleeve. Not sure if they're exactly what you're chasing?
They were frequently found on British cars of the '60s and '70s. While they might work, they are not at all the right style for Citroens of the Dee, GS or CX era.
Citroen did supply the original connectors as spare parts. I have a few leftovers and they are quite different to the substitutes that are currently available. If you really want the originals, try Andre Pol or other dealers in NOS Citroen parts. The heat shrink that comes in the aftermarket kits is much thinner than the original and the colours are not quite right, but it is better than using most other incorrect types of cable termination.
123 has a chip inside it to control the advance/retard curve and it must be selected via a dipswitch by model for best results. Leave your mechanical distributor in the boot after the swap if worried about a possible failure. A worn distributor can have problems with the timing and duration of the points opening for one or more cylinders (lobe wear), but also the advance/retard is likely wrong after decades of use. If you only replace the point with a Hall effect unit, you still rely on the advance/retard of the original distributor. It's certainly a worthwhile change on a 23 EFI and it also replaces the D-jet paired trigger points.
123 has a chip inside it to control the advance/retard curve and it must be selected via a dipswitch by model for best results. Leave your mechanical distributor in the boot after the swap if worried about a possible failure. A worn distributor can have problems with the timing and duration of the points opening for one or more cylinders (lobe wear), but also the advance/retard is likely wrong after decades of use. If you only replace the point with a Hall effect unit, you still rely on the advance/retard of the original distributor. It's certainly a worthwhile change on a 23 EFI and it also replaces the D-jet paired trigger points.
Re-engineering the whole interior lamp circuit seems like overkill. Easier to check that the wiring hasn’t been pinched anywhere or speared with a screw.
The 123 has the advantage of controlling the ignition advance. The hall sensor setups still rely on the 60 year old springs in the distributor to maintain the advance curve. Granted the carby cars probably aren’t as sensitive to the issue as the later EFI cars.
I found that the 4mm bullet connectors used in RC planes etc also fit the original citroen bullet connectors. Double wall heat shrink can be had in all 10 colours
True. But the original advance mechanism doesn't have any reason to wear out. Okay, I have seen worn out units but all there is to it is a couple of springs and the weights that can get sloppy on the shafts. If all of that is in good order there is no benefit to going to an electronic based advance. Don't know how the Citroen system is designed, but some cars have the entire advance mechanism built to be serviced, everything I mentioned can be repaired or replaced if need be. Given that Sven has found no wear in the shaft lobes would have you believe the rest of the dizzy is in top condition (lobes tend to wear first in my experience, but with a Hall sensor that is taken out of the equation). I would check things anyway and take it from there.
There are many much better connectors on the market these days than what was available 70 years ago. Those model airplane connectors are top notch, gold plated and spring bladed, but that does not do away with 5metres of cable, which is I think totally unnecessary these days.
YEs, it is easier to check things didn't get pinched but if they did, you still have to deal with all that length of wiring. And if in the future problems develop, you won't catch them until another fuse goes after the entire loom went! How is that even possible?! The fuse is meant to protect the wiring, not the other way around. I would totally go for the modern solution I suggested. Given that the interior light is not a critical part of the car's lighting system, the worst that can happen is you don't have interior lights if you forget to replace a little dead AA battery. Easily rectified anywhere in the world these days. Carry a torch with the same batteries in the car and you have spares on hand.
Either way, I would go through the circuit with a magnifier because this is not normal, to have a 5m long wire burn out before the fuse went. Sheesh. Feels like a current high enough to melt the wiring sheath but not high enough to blow the fuse has acted long enough that the entire wire length was destroyed. I mean imagine that were to happen when the car was parked and everybody asleep. Nah, in my opinion of non Citroen ownership and not so passionate classic car owner, that has to go. It's 2021, not 1921. After all you want to enjoy your car, not reach for the defibrillator every time you switch it on (or not).
There are many much better connectors on the market these days than what was available 70 years ago. Those model airplane connectors are top notch, gold plated and spring bladed, but that does not do away with 5metres of cable, which is I think totally unnecessary these days.
YEs, it is easier to check things didn't get pinched but if they did, you still have to deal with all that length of wiring. And if in the future problems develop, you won't catch them until another fuse goes after the entire loom went! How is that even possible?! The fuse is meant to protect the wiring, not the other way around. I would totally go for the modern solution I suggested. Given that the interior light is not a critical part of the car's lighting system, the worst that can happen is you don't have interior lights if you forget to replace a little dead AA battery. Easily rectified anywhere in the world these days. Carry a torch with the same batteries in the car and you have spares on hand.
Either way, I would go through the circuit with a magnifier because this is not normal, to have a 5m long wire burn out before the fuse went. Sheesh. Feels like a current high enough to melt the wiring sheath but not high enough to blow the fuse has acted long enough that the entire wire length was destroyed. I mean imagine that were to happen when the car was parked and everybody asleep. Nah, in my opinion of non Citroen ownership and not so passionate classic car owner, that has to go. It's 2021, not 1921. After all you want to enjoy your car, not reach for the defibrillator every time you switch it on (or not).
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The interior lighting circuit is on a 15A fuse along with a few other things. The problem is that there is no way the wire gauge used for the interior lighting can carry 15A at that length so the wire melts long before the fuse blows. A dead short would have melted the wire and blown the fuse so the problem must only be a partial short.
That is bad design then. I would look for a possibility to separate the interior lighting from critical car lighting (brakes, whatever, etc) at least.
I did suggest to Sven a few posts back to put a 5 amp inline fuse in the circuit to give it seperate protection from the main 15 amp fuse.
Yes, you did. But I think that is at best a "good enough" solution.
Separating the circuits would be next level (yeah, I know, that might mean more unacceptably long wires, but electrically lower risk).
Above that, just do away with the lot and embrace modern technology.
How would you feel if you found your precious car you restored with blood sweat and tears and lots of money went up in smoke because of bad design implemented to save 2 pennies on each car?
Separating the circuits would be next level (yeah, I know, that might mean more unacceptably long wires, but electrically lower risk).
Above that, just do away with the lot and embrace modern technology.
How would you feel if you found your precious car you restored with blood sweat and tears and lots of money went up in smoke because of bad design implemented to save 2 pennies on each car?
You continue to criticise the design of a car built over 20 years and nearly 1.5 million units.
It's obvious from your comments that you know very little about them.
There are so many likely causes of this problem not related to the design.
It's not a problem that I've ever seen in nearly 45 years of Dee ownership and a million km driving, in many many variants of the type.
It's not bad design, specially when compared to other cars of its time.
I hope you either refrain from comments that expose your ignorance, or get yourself a Dee and learn to live with it.