My new challenge - 1964 ID19F Safari

BIG

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Tadpole
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Looks like the tow job with Michael's Landrover County might be her last. Michael picked up one of his Rovers on the way back and it seems like the V8 engine was only running on 7. She has been a trusty beast. If anyone is looking for a County to do up Michael might be your man. - - idear on this site.
Anyway it will be good to see this car up and running. Like me, Michael keeps all cars undercover so it has been well preserved.

Good to see people interested in the earlier long stroke cars - - - they are wonderful machines.

All the best, John

D's - a point of view - - - Nov '94

Is it the unique beauty, the absolute craziness, or just sheer enjoyment of a smooth ride that urges one into wanting to discover every facet of this intricate family of cars.

Is it, when changing into fifth gear of a ' 74 DS23, feeling like you're on a runway, and forever believing,
the wheels are about to --- lift off .

Or having the satisfaction of the plush interior, comfort, and ride of a ' 71 DS21 Hydraulique on the highway,
a gearchange so smooth that it is joy itself.

An ID19 1961, the extra soft ride, the torque of the long stroke motor and the heavy flywheel that,
when being wound out, is asking to be driven faster ----- ever faster.

Or a classic ' 57 DS19 with its no fuss exterior and a strange hydraulic gear change that makes you realize that a "true" Citroen can't change any other way,
and when, about to walk away, you are struck down by the sheer simplicity and beauty of a dashboard which would echo its way through an ever changing world and come to its final resting place in a long distant relative,
the GS
A 1974 DS23 Automatic Pallas making city driving - - - - sheer joy.

Or the year 1967, when it all seemed to reach a peak.
Chrome buttons and switches on the "slopy" dash which was to enjoy only one more year before
"modernisation" definitely set in.
Plush carpets, stainless steel kick plates and valences, leather and cloth which showed pride in workmanship,
in a company which was about to conform slowly to the wants of an evermore changing society.

Music on, and just -------- just thinking, one could drive, on and on -------- and on.

Through the dazed eyes of an addict, John Paas.
I am new to Aussiefrogs and came across a website the other day that was really interesting by either John or Michael Paas
http://www.authenticlightingandhardware.com/bit-o-fun.html

John & Michael, I'd love to meet you guys and was told recently your now in Victoria. I am looking for, I may have found, and early ID or DS and it looks like you have had these cars in the past.
Not knowing exactly how this site works, here is my mobile, I'm in Seaford, VIC

Thanks Shane
<<number removed by moderator as its been seen.>>
 
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Buttercup

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Hi Shane, look out for spam on your phone.
At the top of the page is a little icon of an envelope.
This is the link to private messaging....
Where you can send a message to 1 or a group of frogs.
And they can reply
And it's not on the public forum.
Best to not give it too much private info in the public space.
And you can go back to your original message and edit it...... like maybe remove your number. At the bottom of your messages is a small down arrow icon, which allowed you to select edit function.

Btw welcome!
 

bleudanube

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EUREKA!!! IT’S ALIVE!!!!

after two years of restoration, today I reached a major milestone - the engine start up! The main issue was to get fuel to the carbie. The fuel pump needed priming and I also changed the diaphragm. The valves are new and after a bit of mucking around i got fuel to it and the engine cranked over and…. Started! 👍👍👍

below the three stages of the start up. Video 3 is a bit of coughing and spluttering on the first attempt. Video 2 is a little better and in Video 1 the Engine runs well after we adjusted the timing a fair bit. A fantastic feeling.




But, not all is right, so I need some advice. Two issues:

firstly, I have an issue with the gear box. It seems jammed! I can get it into ‘neutral’, but even in neutral, the right drive shaft spins.

I seem to be able to get it into first and third gear, maybe reverse, but not Second and fourth.

the engine only runs with the clutch depressed. As soon as I let the clutch out the engine stalls. And I cannot turn the gearbox with the crank handle unless it is in neutral

I didn’t pull the gearbox apart, besides taking the cover off the top to ‘have a look’. When I assembled the lid with the forks again I am confident I put the large fork with the brass guide blocks at the front in the right location, but maybe I didn’t slot the smaller fork (not sure what gear it is for, but it is on the rear left) into the right spot… could that cause the gearbox to jam?

Second issue: Hydraulics! I followed Bob’s sequence, but I cannot get fluid to the suspension, the brakes and the power steering rack. The pump isn’t cycling. It seems like there is no fluid getting past the accumulator. There are no bubbles in the return any more. I can hear the accumulator release air when I open the valve, but something isn’t right… I got the pump to cycle once, when I moved the steering wheel… but it didn’t repeat. Weird!?

Would appreciate any guidance. Both issues aren’t easy to describe, but I hope others have some ideas how to fix these issues.

otherwise - I finally got the dash finished. It looks fantastic.

32A974D9-1CF3-4EC8-9D25-B3EB156072F9.jpeg
A8DAE7E3-17BB-4288-B95B-DDC39D514153.jpeg
9F82FEA7-8623-48EC-83F2-F41415609793.jpeg


Another little project were the installation of new HT leads. Took the guidance of the froggers and bought a set of Bosch B4013I - but wasn’t happy with the fat black plugs… even after trimming off the inner seal rings. Looked odd.

9A3F03BD-3532-4196-A3D2-B65420B947DE.jpeg
2E3EB11B-FCF7-4D20-8121-54B06001C4D5.jpeg


So I cut the whole plug off and replaced them with the old red plug tops. Much better! Now I have new leads that I can use with sparkplugs without the extensions and bakelite tubes.

A3512465-7549-456F-9341-85196B0F0C2F.jpeg


Another little job was cutting new mud flaps. Easy.

12DEBF70-0AF4-460E-9F0D-10EC6CD1DE2E.jpeg
1BFE3E98-7247-4862-947B-97A528D271D7.jpeg


And as the Marchal lamp gaskets are NLA, I bought 3mm neoprene foam to cut new ones - it is nice and spongy and will fill up any gaps between the housings and the fenders.

934C343B-2319-4040-B666-2A79100C9250.jpeg


A fantastic weekend - the engine sounds really good. A bit fumy as all the paint heats up, a few coolant leaks that are easy to fix, and a few issues to resolve.
I am sure the hydraulics isn’t too hard to fix, I am more concerned about the gearbox. Lucky it isn’t an engine out job, ‘just’ radiator and engine brace out… a few hours work.

anyway, very happy With how it’s working out so far.

Sven
 

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DoubleChevron

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EUREKA!!! IT’S ALIVE!!!!

after two years of restoration, today I reached a major milestone - the engine start up! The main issue was to get fuel to the carbie. The fuel pump needed priming and I also changed the diaphragm. The valves are new and after a bit of mucking around i got fuel to it and the engine cranked over and…. Started! 👍👍👍

below the three stages of the start up. Video 1 is a bit of coughing and spluttering on the first attempt. Video 2 is a little better and in Video 3 the Engine runs well after We adjusted the timing a fair bit. A fantastic feeling.




But, not all is right, so I need some advice. Two issues:

firstly, I have an issue with the gear box. It seems jammed! I can get it into ‘neutral’, but even in neutral, the right drive shaft spins.

I seem to be able to get it into first and third gear, maybe reverse, but not Second and fourth.

the engine only runs with the clutch depressed. As soon as I let the clutch out the engine stalls. And I cannot turn the gearbox with the crank handle unless it is in neutral

I didn’t pull the gearbox apart, besides taking the cover off the top to ‘have a look’. When I assembled the lid with the forks again I am confident I put the large fork with the brass guide blocks at the front in the right location, but maybe I didn’t slot the smaller fork (not sure what gear it is for, but it is on the rear left) into the right spot… could that cause the gearbox to jam?

Second issue: Hydraulics! I followed Bob’s sequence, but I cannot get fluid to the suspension, the brakes and the power steering rack. The pump isn’t cycling. It seems like there is no fluid getting past the accumulator. There are no bubbles in the return any more. I can hear the accumulator release air when I open the valve, but something isn’t right… I got the pump to cycle once, when I moved the steering wheel… but it didn’t repeat. Weird!?

Would appreciate any guidance. Both issues aren’t easy to describe, but I hope others have some ideas how to fix these issues.

otherwise - I finally got the dash finished. It looks fantastic.

View attachment 134096 View attachment 134097 View attachment 134098

Another little project were the installation of new HT leads. Took the guidance of the froggers and bought a set of Bosch B4013I - but wasn’t happy with the fat black plugs… even after trimming off the inner seal rings. Looked odd.

View attachment 134099 View attachment 134100

So I cut the whole plug off and replaced them with the old red plug tops. Much better! Now I have new leads that I can use with sparkplugs without the extensions and bakelite tubes.

View attachment 134101

Another little job was cutting new mud flaps. Easy.

View attachment 134103 View attachment 134104

And as the Marchal lamp gaskets are NLA, I bought 3mm neoprene foam to cut new ones - it is nice and spongy and will fill up any gaps between the housings and the fenders.

View attachment 134102

A fantastic weekend - the engine sounds really good. A bit fumy as all the paint heats up, a few coolant leaks that are easy to fix, and a few issues to resolve.
I am sure the hydraulics isn’t too hard to fix, I am more concerned about the gearbox. Lucky it isn’t an engine out job, ‘just’ radiator and engine brace out… a few hours work.

anyway, very happy With how it’s working out so far.

Sven

hitting back against the starter ... just retard the ignition a bit :) .... That is the quietest top end I think I've ever heard on a long stroke ID19 motor. You can only really hear the single piston pump,
 

Ken W

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Sven,

It sounds like you are running too much advance on the ignition the way it is starting. The cylinders are firing too early and stopping the piston coming up on the compression stroke. It is best to set the distributor timing to about 5 degrees advanced static timing to get the best start.

Cheers, Ken
 

Ken W

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The Gearbox. It sounds like it is already in a gear with the selector finger not in that gear. Try putting the gearbox in neutral, taking the handbrake off, locking one of the front wheels so it won't turn, getting someone to depress the clutch and turning the gearbox with the crank handle the same direction as the engine turns. Does the other front wheel turn as if solidly connected to the crank handle? If so, going forward or backwards? If backwards, you have reverse selected already. If forwards, turn the crank handle 10 revolutions and get someone to count how many times the wheel turns and divide this by 2 to get the overall gear ratio including final drive. If is is not solidly connected, you probably just need to adjust the side to side movement to get the selector fingers sitting in the right place for the gears they should be selecting.

If you are already in gear, you will have to take the lid off the gearbox again to put the gear selector for the gear it is in, back to the neutral position. If it is already in a gear, you shouldn't be able to select any other gear as there are detent pins that lock the other selector rods once one selector rod is in gear - however these can get worn in an older gearbox and allow several gears to be selected thereby locking the gearbox.

With the hydraulics, it sounds like you are not getting the pump primed properly with the bleed screw open on the regulator. Do not tighten up the regulator bleed screw until you are getting a nice flow of fluid coming back from the regulator return into the tank. Sometimes it takes a few big revs to get it all happening. If that doesn't work, try getting a syringe of hydraulic fluid and pressure feed it through the suction line into pump to get the air out of the pump chamber so it develops enough pressure to open the one way valve on the exit.

Cheers, Ken
 
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DoubleChevron

Real cars have hydraulics
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Oh, I looked at pictures and didn't read the text. It sounds like you have a selector fork off. so the car is always in a gear, but if you try to engage a different gear, you lock the gearbox solid (as two gears are engaged at once). I once managed this with a 4spd CX gearbox in the middle of melbourne ... ending up with a car stuck in 2nd.

you need to open the regulator bleed screw and leave it open until you see fluid circulating. Any leaks in the suction line will prevent priming of the pump. (it takes very little to stop the pump priming.... just a tiny split in the hose anywhere will do it).
 

deesse

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Well done Sven, I have been checking Aussie frogs for a week now to see if you got it running. Must be a great sense of achievement.
cheers Tony
 

bleudanube

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Oh, I looked at pictures and didn't read the text. It sounds like you have a selector fork off. so the car is always in a gear, but if you try to engage a different gear, you lock the gearbox solid (as two gears are engaged at once). I once managed this with a 4spd CX gearbox in the middle of melbourne ... ending up with a car stuck in 2nd.

you need to open the regulator bleed screw and leave it open until you see fluid circulating. Any leaks in the suction line will prevent priming of the pump. (it takes very little to stop the pump priming.... just a tiny split in the hose anywhere will do it).
Thanks gents for the trouble shooting by distance - I will remove the radiator and all the other kerfuffle and open up the gearbox lid again - I think you are right. I must have put the selector fork in in the wrong spot… at least it’s not engine out again 😓

I will have another play with the priming of the pump as well. Can’t be that hard to work it out. All the hoses are new, so I don’t think it’s a split line, but will assess it all again.
 

faulksy

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With the wheels off the ground the height correctors may not be allowing fluid into the suspension lines. The priority valve could be jammed and not letting fluid into the rest of the system.

Once the pump and suction hose are full of fluid, the pump should self prime. The pump will shift air just as happily as LHM so even a large air bubble in the pickup tube shouldn't stop it working.
 

schlitzaugen

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The medium of using pastels in the art world has a disadvantage in that. unlike oils or watercolour it doesn't "dry".
A spray of sealer after the work is finished prevents the pastel from scuffing when handled.
After you left today with the good speedo glass, I've been playing with the idea of spraying the reverse of the glass with a laquer to prevent the deterioration or the the numbers.
A risky business .......... probably ! The spray might discolour or disfigure the numbers even more.
Any thoughts on this ...................... Michael Paas
I immediately thought about painting the glass when reading the thread (a few pages back). Yep, I read the whole thing even though I know nothing of Citroens.

But here's my suggestion you can try on some scrap glass.

Make a stencil (difficult, I know, but not that difficult given there is bugger all written on the glass and some straight lines-these should be easy).

The way I do it is to lay down some wide masking tape on some silicone paper (this is the paper used for backing of decals, etc) with a little bit of overlap between strips. You can plan ahead such that the lettering does not fall on the overlapped sections.

Put the glass on top, draw the outline with something permanent and thin so you get a good cut line that will help position the stencil.

Draw the letters/shapes/whatever you need to cut out.

Get a nice sharp blade (I use an Olfa cutter) and cut out the letters, shapes, etc.

Peel off the stencil, attach to glass and paint. If you have some transfer paper it's best, if not, you're going to have to align the inside of the zeroes and such. You can also try to use some more masking tape over the top, just be careful when you peel it off after placing the stencil on the glass.

For painting I would suggest you use Tamiya spray can (Acrylic - coded "TS" ) paints from hobby shops. This is a very high quality paint and comes in many colours. You can back it with white or black or silver to give different intensities to the lettering colours and at the end you can peel off the stencil and apply a layer of Tamiya clear over the whole thing. I don't think it is necessary and it is quite risky because if you don't apply it correctly it may take away some of the transparency of the glass. You can however test applying clear on a piece of scrap glass just to get a feel for how to do it and what the result might look like.

They also have translucent paints in the range and those would give a nice illumination effect at night, like you see in modern cars. Be careful with these, they are prone to run. Take your time and spray very thin layers.

These paints are very difficult to dilute or take off after that. I haven't found a solvent for it yet. Different things work to some extent but none is good enough. There is some solvent made by Tamiya you can use but it is expensive and you don't really need it (until you make a mistake that is). Being glass, you can scrape it off of course, but it will not be easy. At least it will not come off with a wash no matter how thorough. The paint is rather long lived when exposed to sun light too. It does eventually fade, but it takes years of direct exposure. Inside the car cockpit it will practically last forever.

If you have a plotter cutter, creating the stencil is child's play.
 
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BIG

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I am new to Aussiefrogs and came across a website the other day that was really interesting by either John or Michael Paas
http://www.authenticlightingandhardware.com/bit-o-fun.html

John & Michael, I'd love to meet you guys and was told recently your now in Victoria. I am looking for, I may have found, and early ID or DS and it looks like you have had these cars in the past.
Not knowing exactly how this site works, here is my mobile, I'm in Seaford, VIC

Thanks Shane
<<number removed by moderator as its been seen.>>
Thank you for removing my number Buttercup.
I know this site is coming down soon but it has been a great resource in my short time here.
Taking notes for my rest

Thank you everyone.
 

Buttercup

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Sven, it sounds like the 1st selector fork ( the top end of the lever at the side ) has not engaged in the driving groove of the 2nd selector on the rod in the lid.

If you fit the lid without checking correct positioning of that lever drive, 1st gear will be selected when the rods are strained into neutral.

You need to lift the lid again...... not a lot, only about 10mm at that corner, so you can engage the lever in the correct groove, then lower it down again.
 

bleudanube

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Sven, it sounds like the 1st selector fork ( the top end of the lever at the side ) has not engaged in the driving groove of the 2nd selector on the rod in the lid.

If you fit the lid without checking correct positioning of that lever drive, 1st gear will be selected when the rods are strained into neutral.

You need to lift the lid again...... not a lot, only about 10mm at that corner, so you can engage the lever in the correct groove, then lower it down again.
Thanks Bob and others - let’s see what I find when I open it up. If it’s not obvious I will post photos and ask for help again! 😬
 

bleudanube

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Well, spent half of Saturday pulling the front end apart again to be able to fiddle with the gearbox.

once the lid was off it was relatively easy to spot the error why the gearbox jammed up. The circled sprocket was the offending item - I just pushed it back a bit, adjusted one of the forks and put the lid back on. Check all the gears and all is well - phew.

before I got that far I had the fun job to retrieve the two brass guides out of the bowels of the gearbox - accidentally dropped them in… and as they aren’t magnetic I spent a fair time fishing them back out with hooks and other implements…


6A585CE1-0053-44F8-A99E-68DE5006624D.jpeg


cut a new gasket from gasket paper. Fit first attenpt!

71A453E5-DC03-421B-A649-BB6FD7EA4CCA.jpeg
BE4F1ACF-F2C9-43C5-9C69-54D21EA88FFF.jpeg


Another job for the weekend were the side and rear window installation. With the help of a second person, plenty of soapy water they all fit in well and the seals sit pretty well in their frames.

AA4D9056-B6C8-485A-818E-17DEA29A528D.jpeg
75539A27-A2AB-4401-AE63-2634B37CE679.jpeg


I didn’t do any more work on the engine or hydraulics for now. There will be plenty of time for that once the outer panels go to the painter…

so, time to get back to Panelwork : I must admit I haven’t missed the dirty work of cutting, welding and grinding…. But: has to be done. The doors have a fair amount of rust in the bottom and a few stress fractures near the hinges.

7A807A9C-66DD-4328-A666-6174206A008D.jpeg


So I don’t lose the reference line of the door bottom I repaired the end / corner sections first, then started to replace the door skin bottom.

4A9CA145-90E4-47CD-8AB4-A188EBD20254.jpeg
1045018E-FBFD-420F-9975-D0982BF2C3BA.jpeg


Maintaining straightness will be a challenge. Slow and steady will be key. Fabricating the bottom will also not be easy. It has a few odd angles that will be interesting to fold
 
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deesse

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Pleased to hear you got your gearbox sorted Sven.
I notice you have black window rubbers. When did they change to grey?
God speed with the body work.
cheers Tony
 

bleudanube

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I think the change over was 66/67 or thereabouts if I recall correctly. The black ones are correct for my 64.
yes, it’s good to have the gearbox back in the right order…. A bit fiddly to get to, but at least not an engine out job.
 

badabec

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Next time you need to make a gasket, place the paper in position then gently tap around the edge with a hammer at a slight angle. The hammer strikes will cut the paper. For the bolt holes, place a large ball bearing over each hole and tap with the hammer.
 

DoubleChevron

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Well, spent half of Saturday pulling the front end apart again to be able to fiddle with the gearbox.

once the lid was off it was relatively easy to spot the error why the gearbox jammed up. The circled sprocket was the offending item - I just pushed it back a bit, adjusted one of the forks and put the lid back on. Check all the gears and all is well - phew.

before I got that far I had the fun job to retrieve the two brass guides out of the bowels of the gearbox - accidentally dropped them in… and as they aren’t magnetic I spent a fair time fishing them back out with hooks and other implements…


View attachment 134266

cut a new gasket from gasket paper. Fit first attenpt!

View attachment 134262 View attachment 134263

Another job for the weekend were the side and rear window installation. With the help of a second person, plenty of soapy water they all fit in well and the seals sit pretty well in their frames.

View attachment 134267 View attachment 134268

I didn’t do any more work on the engine or hydraulics for now. There will be plenty of time for that once the outer panels go to the painter…

so, time to get back to Panelwork : I must admit I haven’t missed the dirty work of cutting, welding and grinding…. But: has to be done. The doors have a fair amount of rust in the bottom and a few stress fractures near the hinges.

View attachment 134264

So I don’t lose the reference line of the door bottom I repaired the end / corner sections first, then started to replace the door skin bottom.

View attachment 134269 View attachment 134270

Maintaining straightness will be a challenge. Slow and steady will be key. Fabricating the bottom will also not be easy. It has a few odd angles that will be interesting to fold
Have you been watching this guy? He's brilliant! What he can do with a 4" grinder and welder is incredible.

 
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