Modest upgrades to an R10

[Bowie]

Cool stuff!

I see they come with a bunch of different pulleys, assuming you just used a standard v shaped pulley, got a longer belt and off you went?

im a sucker for the sound of a supercharger, it’s nearly worth it just for that alone.

they really are so small.

 

[Greenpeace]

These are a couple I've done. Top one is a 1924 Rover 9/20 traditional style hot rod I built. Original 1100cc 20hp engine with AMR500, made the extended drive with a 1/2" extension bar and a 6 point socket that fitted on the rotor nut, bit of scrap alloy for the the extended snout and a self-centering bearing at the pulley end.
1 1/8" SU from memory. No inlet manifold just a 1" hole in the side of the head for the original brass carby. Made 2 alloy plates one bolted to the engine and one to the blower using countersunk cap screws. Then they bolted together with studs and nuts around the edges of the plates. Car was a 4 speed, 2nd and 3rd gear hills before the blower all became top gear hills after fitting the blower. With sympathy to its age this one was only set up to run 4psi of boost.

Second one is the Reliant Regal that I still have. 850cc Robin engine, AMR300 sitting on a plenum bolted to the original manifold. 1 3/4" SU, blower pulley changed since the photo, was running 6psi with the pulley in the photo, now 10psi with the newer pulley. Not much room under there as the engine sits back under the windscreen next to the drivers leg. Beauty of using an SU is you can easily make an adaptor to swan-neck it down to wherever it will fit. Should have seen the one on the Beetle! I did the Beetle about 20 years ago so don't have a photo sorry.
The Reliant is pretty quick.

 

[Greenpeace]

Cool stuff!

I see they come with a bunch of different pulleys, assuming you just used a standard v shaped pulley, got a longer belt and off you went?

im a sucker for the sound of a supercharger, it’s nearly worth it just for that alone.

they really are so small.

I'm still running the polyrib belt on the Reliant, when I wanted to up the boost I just took the old blower pulley into a local machine shop and said "could you make me one of these this diameter" and gave him the new measurement. When I set it up initially I got a polyrib pulley off a Honda and welded it to the water pump pulley and the tensioner is off an old Subaru, also polyrib. The original v belt drives the alternator and water pump off the crank and the extra Honda pulley (welded to the original water pump pulley) is dedicated to driving the blower. This enables you to maximise the amount of belt wrap on all the pulleys.
I try and stay with polyrib belts to drive the blower if I can, but have also used v belt drives on a couple of occasions. The Rover in my last post is v belt drive.
The little Reliant whistles and whines like a champ, sometimes it gets a blower surge happening at idle, braaaaaaap, braaaaaaap, braaaaaaap. It's the only supercharged car I've had that's done it (idle surge). I haven't worked out why , but haven't tried too hard either cos it sounds pretty cool when it does it.

 

[Bowie]

That reliant! Love it

you are a great bad influence who ever you are. Greatly appreciated.

 

[Greenpeace]

That reliant! Love it

you are a great bad influence who ever you are. Greatly appreciated.

No worries, different blowers, but here's some more cars I've "tinkered" with. Apologies for the the image quality, some I built in the days before phones had cameras so are photos of photos.

First one P6B Rover, 3.5L V8, 6/53 GM blower, twin 465 Holleys. Made manifold out of the bottom half of an injected Range Rover manifold. Made a front drive support and used double v belts for the drive. 10psi boost and you can just make out the 100hp nitrous plate system under the carbs. This was my first foray into the world of supercharging, it used to straighten my arms out pretty good.

I'd forgotten about number 2 cos I think I said earlier I'd only built one blow through set up, sorry I've built two. Perentti kit car (Corvette replica) 400 Chev, Powerdyne centrifugal supercharger blowing through a 850 double pumper Holley, 7 rib drive belt if memory serves me. 5.5psi of boost, this thing used to get real skatey. This is the only car I've built with a centrifugal supercharger.

Number 3 is a Rambler Rebel. 5.3L small block Chrysler engine. Twin SC14 Toyota superchargers blowing through a 750 AFB Carter. 1" toothed belt drive, 12psi of boost, 150hp nitrous plate system, four 110 gallon per hour fuel pumps. If you look closely it needed 4 blow off valves to get rid of the air when the throttle was let off (the blowers keep pumping when you button off and with the throttle plates shut it has nowhere to go). I started with two blow off valves but it would instantly strip the teeth off the drive belt when I backed off at high revs. I also had two 20psi radiator caps on top of the carby hat for pressure relief case of a backfire.
This thing was awesome, smoke the tyres at 50mph in top gear without the N2O.
Tried to get it dynoed but it just kept lighting up the tyres so the dyno guy gave up.

Last one is a 1924 Bean. 2.4L 4 cylinder. 2/71 GM blower, twin 1 1/4 SUs. Direct drive off the crank via a v belt driven jackshaft. I did this to provide some "slip" in case of backfire, didn't want to risk breaking the snout off a near 100 year old crank. Set up for 4psi out of kindness for its age. It could hold top gear everywhere.

Don't be scared to give it a go, I have no mechanical training. Anyone who is duly diligent could build their own supercharger kit. Make sure everything is straiģht (pulley belts etc) and that the front of the blower is well supported as the drive belt tries to pull the blower down towards the drive source. Oh and don't mount the blower upside down. The rotors push the air around the sides of the case, they don't pull it down through the middle. I've seen that before.
Avoid blow through, draw through is way easier.

R4gene, sorry to hijack your thread, supercharge the R10, you'll love it.

 

[Bowie]

View attachment 137153
View attachment 137154
These are a couple I've done. Top one is a 1924 Rover 9/20 traditional style hot rod I built. Original 1100cc 20hp engine with AMR500, made the extended drive with a 1/2" extension bar and a 6 point socket that fitted on the rotor nut, bit of scrap alloy for the the extended snout and a self-centering bearing at the pulley end.
1 1/8" SU from memory. No inlet manifold just a 1" hole in the side of the head for the original brass carby. Made 2 alloy plates one bolted to the engine and one to the blower using countersunk cap screws. Then they bolted together with studs and nuts around the edges of the plates. Car was a 4 speed, 2nd and 3rd gear hills before the blower all became top gear hills after fitting the blower. With sympathy to its age this one was only set up to run 4psi of boost.

Second one is the Reliant Regal that I still have. 850cc Robin engine, AMR300 sitting on a plenum bolted to the original manifold. 1 3/4" SU, blower pulley changed since the photo, was running 6psi with the pulley in the photo, now 10psi with the newer pulley. Not much room under there as the engine sits back under the windscreen next to the drivers leg. Beauty of using an SU is you can easily make an adaptor to swan-neck it down to wherever it will fit. Should have seen the one on the Beetle! I did the Beetle about 20 years ago so don't have a photo sorry.
The Reliant is pretty quick.

I just read that post again.. you made the extension by using a socket, leaving it on the drive nut, add a cheap extension, protect everything in a tube... is the bearing on the drive side just pressed into opening of the tube as it leaves the extension?

Bloody love it!

Here I am thinking fit one of these below a standard 32/36 DGV, use standard manifolds, stick the carb out the bonnet, oh this is to funny.

 

[Greenpeace]

I just read that post again.. you made the extension by using a socket, leaving it on the drive nut, add a cheap extension, protect everything in a tube... is the bearing on the drive side just pressed into opening of the tube as it leaves the extension?

Bloody love it!

Here I am thinking fit one of these below a standard 32/36 DGV, use standard manifolds, stick the carb out the bonnet, oh this is to funny.

Correct, the self-centering bearing sandwiches between a pressed metal 3 bolt flange which bolts to the front plate. You would notice I made the plate so it extended down and supported the front of the snout as well. The bearing's center race has a collar with grub screws in it to stop the drive shaft from trying to walk out. I just left the flange bolts a tiny bit loose while it was running and then nipped them up while it was running once the drive shaft had found it's sweet spot.

 

[Fireblade]

How would a supercharger go coupled with fuel injection? There would be no option but to push through....

 

[Greenpeace]

I just read that post again.. you made the extension by using a socket, leaving it on the drive nut, add a cheap extension, protect everything in a tube... is the bearing on the drive side just pressed into opening of the tube as it leaves the extension?

Bloody love it!

Here I am thinking fit one of these below a standard 32/36 DGV, use standard manifolds, stick the carb out the bonnet, oh this is to funny.

Oh and the Weber would be fine.
Remember butterfly type carbies don't know they are on a supercharger, as far as it's concerned it just needs to move more air, the same as it would if it was fitted on a bigger engine.

As I mentioned previously problem with an SU is it relays on pressure difference to lift the piston.
A supercharger is pretty savage in this regard, ie it wants a lot more air and fast. The result is usually a big baaaaaaaah noise from from the SU and the car doesn't go anywhere. Most people then think the piston needs to lift faster because the "carby can't keep up", and begin to do mods got "fix" the problem.
What's really happened is the piston has slammed to the top, slammed so fast that the fuel supply up past the needle and jet can't keep up so the blower's just pumping air.
There are two ways to address this problem, a stronger spring in the dashpot above the piston and heavier weight oil in the the little damper on the top.
Most people chuck ATF in the damper on a standard SU application and it works well.
In the Reliant's blown application I am using 140W gear oil and have stretched the sh#t out of the dashpot spring to increase resistance. When you stick your finger in the carby throat you can barely move the piston upwards.
"Logic" would say this can't possibly work. "Logic" doesn't stop it from spinning the tyres through 1st, 2nd and 3rd and then watch the needle go off the end of the speedo in 4th gear however.

 

[Greenpeace]

How would a supercharger go coupled with fuel injection? There would be no option but to push through....

I haven't played with injection. Most systems have the ability to handle some extra workload however. I would be very surprised if the engine management couldn't cope with some moderate boost, ie 6 or 7 psi. I think given the high fuel pressures involved in FI applications you could probably get away without a rising rate regulator as well.
Easiest way would be to Google and see if anyone has light turboed your model with the standard computer and fuel system. Extra air is extra air whether it's from a turbo or supercharger. Advantage of blow through of course is you can fit an intercooler as well.

 

[Fireblade]

I haven't played with injection. Most systems have the ability to handle some extra workload however. I would be very surprised if the engine management couldn't cope with some moderate boost, ie 6 or 7 psi. I think given the high fuel pressures involved in FI applications you could probably get away without a rising rate regulator as well.
Easiest way would be to Google and see if anyone has light turboed your model with the standard computer and fuel system. Extra air is extra air whether it's from a turbo or supercharger. Advantage of blow through of course is you can fit an intercooler as well.

If I went down this path, it would be for 1565cc engine - I would be using a custom ecu maybe a mega squirt or other 3rd party ecu - I just happen to have the injection hardware for this motor at hand.

 

[Greenpeace]

If I went down this path, it would be for 1565cc engine - I would be using a custom ecu maybe a mega squirt or other 3rd party ecu - I just happen to have the injection hardware for this motor at hand.

Oh OK. With an aftermarket ECU the world's your oyster really. Any system that will support a FI turbo will work with a supercharger. Depending on your engine's compression ratio I'd be thinking about stepping up to an SC14, intercooling and upping the boost. An SC14 running at 1 to 1 crank speed on your 1565 would give around 12psi of boost.

Don't underrate the ability of a carburettor though.
I remember being at DJR in their engine room and a guy I was with asking why they didn't use as 4 barrel carb on their V8 Supercar. The engineer said "the 4 barrel can make 10 to 15 hp more than the 8 stack injection on our dyno".
"However when we move from track to track we can tune the injection in a couple of laps, the carby sometimes used to take a couple of days to tune".

If you're not moving track to track????

That's why I say stay away from a blow through carb, if you don't have the knowledge to tune it yourself the dyno time could break the piggy bank.

I took the blow through Powerdyne 400 Chev car to a dyno shop for a "fine tune" on the Holley. 4 hours later I was down over 100hp and old matey was still going " I know what it is, I know what it is". I insisted it come off the dyno "cos the way you're going it won't have enough power to get me home". Cost me $480 (15 years ago).
I took it home and put it back exactly the way I'd set it up.

I may try blow through again down the track but next time I will enclose the entire carby in a box rather than blow through the throat.

I've got a couple of SC14s kicking around if you need any measurements.

 

[R4gene]

No worries, different blowers, but here's some more cars I've "tinkered" with. Apologies for the the image quality, some I built in the days before phones had cameras so are photos of photos.

First one P6B Rover, 3.5L V8, 6/53 GM blower, twin 465 Holleys. Made manifold out of the bottom half of an injected Range Rover manifold. Made a front drive support and used double v belts for the drive. 10psi boost and you can just make out the 100hp nitrous plate system under the carbs. This was my first foray into the world of supercharging, it used to straighten my arms out pretty good.

I'd forgotten about number 2 cos I think I said earlier I'd only built one blow through set up, sorry I've built two. Perentti kit car (Corvette replica) 400 Chev, Powerdyne centrifugal supercharger blowing through a 850 double pumper Holley, 7 rib drive belt if memory serves me. 5.5psi of boost, this thing used to get real skatey. This is the only car I've built with a centrifugal supercharger.

Number 3 is a Rambler Rebel. 5.3L small block Chrysler engine. Twin SC14 Toyota superchargers blowing through a 750 AFB Carter. 1" toothed belt drive, 12psi of boost, 150hp nitrous plate system, four 110 gallon per hour fuel pumps. If you look closely it needed 4 blow off valves to get rid of the air when the throttle was let off (the blowers keep pumping when you button off and with the throttle plates shut it has nowhere to go). I started with two blow off valves but it would instantly strip the teeth off the drive belt when I backed off at high revs. I also had two 20psi radiator caps on top of the carby hat for pressure relief case of a backfire.
This thing was awesome, smoke the tyres at 50mph in top gear without the N2O.
Tried to get it dynoed but it just kept lighting up the tyres so the dyno guy gave up.

Last one is a 1924 Bean. 2.4L 4 cylinder. 2/71 GM blower, twin 1 1/4 SUs. Direct drive off the crank via a v belt driven jackshaft. I did this to provide some "slip" in case of backfire, didn't want to risk breaking the snout off a near 100 year old crank. Set up for 4psi out of kindness for its age. It could hold top gear everywhere.

Don't be scared to give it a go, I have no mechanical training. Anyone who is duly diligent could build their own supercharger kit. Make sure everything is straiģht (pulley belts etc) and that the front of the blower is well supported as the drive belt tries to pull the blower down towards the drive source. Oh and don't mount the blower upside down. The rotors push the air around the sides of the case, they don't pull it down through the middle. I've seen that before.
Avoid blow through, draw through is way easier.

R4gene, sorry to hijack your thread, supercharge the R10, you'll love it.

No apology needed, this is what I asked for when I started this thread ‘modest upgrades to a R10’. I hadn’t considered supercharging so I am glad you jumped in, really interesting reading and I would be keen to try it. Seem to remember supercharging was popular as a after market on earlier Renaults ,4cv and Dauphine ?
You mentioned draw through set ups are easier to manage than push through. How would you set this up on a downdraft like the Weber 32 dir without having it coming up through the engine lid. Supercharger between inlet manifold and head? Or is it easier just to use an Su?

 

[Bowie]

Do a quick google on supercharged / turbo datsun a1200, plenty of inspiration with a similar sorta layouts. But in short, you can put the carb whever ever you like and just make a pipe manifold to connect everything.

http://datsun1200.com/uploads/photos/27153.jpg

http://datsun1200.com/uploads/photos/9590.jpg

This thread / wiki is a great read actually

http://datsun1200.com/modules/mediawiki/index.php?title=Supercharger

 

[R4gene]

Do a quick google on supercharged / turbo datsun a1200, plenty of inspiration with a similar sorta layouts. But in short, you can put the carb whever ever you like and just make a pipe manifold to connect everything.

http://[URL]http://datsun1200.com/uploads/photos/27153.jpg

[/URL]

http://[URL]http://datsun1200.com/uploads/photos/9590.jpg

[/URL]

This thread / wiki is a great read actually

http://[URL]http://datsun1200.com/modules/mediawiki/index.php?title=Supercharger

[/URL]

Thanks, will do

 

[Fireblade]

I had an early BMW Mini Cooper S which came with a 1.6L supercharged motor. One of the things I loved about that car was that it was so drivable around town. It really wasn't fussed which gear you chose when tootling around town. I'd previously had a WRX (which was a much more competent car - definitely more competent than its driver!) but the Mini was the most fun of any car I've ever owned. I think I can put some of that down to being supercharged!

 

[Greenpeace]

No apology needed, this is what I asked for when I started this thread ‘modest upgrades to a R10’. I hadn’t considered supercharging so I am glad you jumped in, really interesting reading and I would be keen to try it. Seem to remember supercharging was popular as a after market on earlier Renaults ,4cv and Dauphine ?
You mentioned draw through set ups are easier to manage than push through. How would you set this up on a downdraft like the Weber 32 dir without having it coming up through the engine lid. Supercharger between inlet manifold and head? Or is it easier just to use an Su?

I believe a company called Alconi offered supercharger kits for racing R10s back in the the day. I'm guessing (like the VW Judson kits) if you can find a one they'll want as much for it as the car's worth. I think Alconi used a vane supercharger, not sure from which blower manufacturer though.
Yes as Bowie said you can mount the carby remotely, I try and keep the distance as short, and the bends as smooth as possible.
Another good read is "Supercharge" by Eldred Norman of Norman supercharger fame. Type the book and his name in on Google and it should being up the FC-FE Holden club up on the 1st page. You can read his book on their tech page.
With blow through you need rising rate regulator and an electric fuel pump that can reliably deliver your boost pressure + the normal 3 or 4 psi the carby operates on.
I haven't tried blow through with the the carby fully enclosed, from what I've read the carby itself needs no mods other than it can't have brass floats. Biggest problem seems to be sealing the entry points into the box for the hoses and cables. You will still need the aforementioned rising rate regulator and fuel pump.
The AFB Carter on the blow through Rambler set up had brass floats and the boost pressure blew them dead flat. I had to modify a pair of plastic floats out of a Thermoquad as no-one made plastic floats for the AFB Carter.
Rising rate regulators aren't cheap but I can tell you how to make one for around $50 (to suit a carby) if you decide to go the blow through route.

 

[Greenpeace]

I had an early BMW Mini Cooper S which came with a 1.6L supercharged motor. One of the things I loved about that car was that it was so drivable around town. It really wasn't fussed which gear you chose when tootling around town. I'd previously had a WRX (which was a much more competent car - definitely more competent than its driver!) but the Mini was the most fun of any car I've ever owned. I think I can put some of that down to being supercharged!

My nephew had one of those supercharged Minis, it had a LOT of mods and was an absolute weapon, although it did break down fairly regularly.

I had a 1989 Subaru Rex, the JDM kei car Rex not the Aussie WRX.
It had a 550cc 4cyl engine, factory AMR300 supercharger/intercooler setup. I made a 2" exhaust for it, put a modified K & N element in the factory airbox, and improved the cold air supply to the airbox. Boost was unchanged from factory settings and car weighed almost 600kg.
The vehicle would pull strong to the 8K redline in all 5 gears and that was 180kph in 5th on the GPS. (The speedo only had markings to 140kph as per Japanese legislation). I took it to the drag strip and it ran 16.7 in the quarter. I ran a new XR6 turbo twice and beat him both times to the 1/8 mile, after the 1/8 marker he came sailing past .
Absolutely amazing car for a half liter engine though, if you are familiar with the old Toowoomba Range road it would go all the way up at 100kph in 5th gear at around 1/2 throttle!

 

[Greenpeace]

No apology needed, this is what I asked for when I started this thread ‘modest upgrades to a R10’. I hadn’t considered supercharging so I am glad you jumped in, really interesting reading and I would be keen to try it. Seem to remember supercharging was popular as a after market on earlier Renaults ,4cv and Dauphine ?
You mentioned draw through set ups are easier to manage than push through. How would you set this up on a downdraft like the Weber 32 dir without having it coming up through the engine lid. Supercharger between inlet manifold and head? Or is it easier just to use an Su?

One other thing, you can mount the supercharger wherever you like. You could mount it low in the engine bay with the carby on top and blow the air fuel mix up to the manifold via a pipe. You can't see it in the photo but the Bean's GM blower had a 4" pipe out the bottom that curled up to the cylinder head, gradually reducing to 2" along the way. I incorporated an explosion port into this system though, as that size pipe holds a lot of air/fuel mix. Always remember (by weight) petrol (as a vapour) is 16 times more powerful than TNT.
Never blow an air/fuel mix through an intercooler, if it backfires it will blow the arse end off your Renault.

 

[Bowie]

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I need to post this or I'll be temped! Someone buy this so I don't have too

I've got enough money in the play fund to get my shielding gas sorted so I can start gluing metal together, this is just unfortunate timing for me.

Do It Fireblade, I'll get the next one