Modest upgrades to an R10

[Bowie]

Are we being a little optimistic about how common 50yr old Renault engines are these days?

Probably the worst audience to ask I suppose, half of you have a apocalyptic number of spares in the wood shed no doubt

 

[Bustamif]

They will be a lot harder to find when this site closes. I confess to having a 12 motor in parts which I intend to build as an upgraded motor for the R10 Alconi. I recall there was something in a thread here on AF about using Mazda pistons to get to 1500cc, maybe Frans mentioned it. I believe it will be be a good option instead of an 807, 16TS cross flow engine. The Alconi at 1400 is already not too far behind my 1600 Gordini or Fast Floride 1600 on the road. An R12 motor is much easier to fit in a R10 than an 807 motor, mostly because of water pump, alternator, gearbox and engine mounting issues.

 

[4cvgordini]

If AussieFrogs is not salvaged somehow then all of these discussions could easily occur unchanged on the UK French cars forum. Its functioning is very similar & it doesn't matter where the server physically is.

 

[R4gene]

On wheel size:

I would find out about tyre availability before choosing wheels.

The trouble with 13" is that your choice is either "track day" style tyres which do not operate well at low temperatures or in standing water or some mediocre 175/70-13 or 185/70 "eco" tyres.

The trouble with 15" tyres is finding anything good for a modest upgrade.

One modest path is to acquire a set of GS Citroen rims. supply them, plus your standard rims, to a wheelwright to have GS rims attached to R10 centres. Thus one has (R8G or R10S style) 4.5x15" wheels. Two mediocre tyres are available: Kumho's Ecowing KH27 & Nankang's AS-1.

More complicated in rim sourcing is to move to 5" or 5.5". This gives better tyres, including the above-mentioned Pirelli P6, in 175/65 (or 175/65 F & 185/60 R). But: the R10 centres are weak and tend to split around the stud holes under lateral leads. They can be reinforced in a simple way but things are becoming less modest. (I can advise on the reinforcement to the centres if asked.)

Or one could, for now, simply keep the standard 15" wheels & upgrade tyres. I note John W's experience with XZX & its benefits over ZX. Yes it is improved in structure & compared compared to its ancestor but it does cost quite a lot & is not the best performing tyre for a standard rim. Much more cheaply available is, again, Nankang's AS-1. Size is 145/65. Not a wonderful tyre but better in all ways than the XZX (the evidence is indirect but compelling - detail if asked) The only drawback is an almost 5% reduction in gearing (compared to 135/80). Don't fit tubes; tubeless is fine on R10 rims (detail available if asked).

I still favour "flipped" R16 14" rims as the easiest modest modification giving you good tyres. I would be surprised if you could not source some by trawling on AussieFrogs.

cheers! Peter

I, at least, am finding this to be one of the more interesting threads. It's a conversation & like, most conversations, diverts at times to where the participants choose to take it. Good!

Hi Peter, after doing some research I agree with you and Bustamif that 14’’ 5’’ rims offer the best tyre selection. I currently have the Pirelli P6 195 60 R14 s on my Fuego and am really happy with them.
Are the R16 wheels 4.5’’ or 5’’ ?
Also would it be possible to buy new 14’’ 5’’ rims ( for example Sunraysias) and have the cut down reinforced 10 centres fitted.
Thanks Matt

 

[R4gene]

Lots of good ideas here. I'd add that in round numbers, with standard tyres on 15" rims (in my case 145-15 Michelin XZX) you do 4,000 rpm for 100 kph. It'll do that all day but is on the busy side, noise-wise. The original 1100 engines were prone to failure of the top ring land at high mileage, allowing little bits of piston ring into the combustion chambers. That would point you to a new sleeve kit at the least if the engine is original.

There are different views, but we found a 40 kg bag of cement in the front of the R8 greatly improved cross-wind stability when ours was used on the Freeway in Perth a lot. Cement bags are now 20 kg.

Mr 4cvgordini had poor results with Hall Effect kits. I had the opposite experience with the one branded "Hot Spark" but you are still relying on the centrifugal (mechanical) advance system and the pivots wear out in the end (although they can be rebushed). I fitted a 123 electronic distributor in the end, a couple of years ago, and the performance seems no different to me but it starts MUCH better and runs more smoothly on a slight throttle opening. Not cheap. The original system works perfectly well when set up properly but I agree with him about the Gammatronix unit - I have a 6V one on my 4CV and the beauty (for me) is the minimal current switching from the points, which show no marks on the faces after some years.

Regarding brakes, several of us in WA use silicone brake fluid, and since you'll perhaps do a full overhaul you could take the opportunity to change. Not everyone agrees but I've found the complete lack of corrosion and long life very appealing. When I dismantled my 4CV brakes after 25 years with silicone everything was perfect, full stop. With the R8/10, corrosion behind the seal grooves in the callipers is the issue. I still have a tiny leak somewhere - not a drip to be found - but if you clean them up super-carefully when re-sealing they behave OK.

I've had Konis for many years on the R8. Totally agree that this is worth doing. PM me if you'd like detailed information about the lower mounting brackets, as there are indeed two types and you need the later ones for new Konis.

The car might still have its original windscreen - if so remember it is not laminated, and one day you'll get that stone....... Some people have fitted two-speed wipers using R12 components. I haven't bothered but do have a foot switch that gives one sweep and rewired very slightly to give automatic parking.

Back in the day, people fitted R12 or Fuego tombstone seats for comfort and neck protection. First find your seats though.

Don't hit anything. They are not strong by modern standards!

Good luck with it.

 

[R4gene]

Lots of good ideas here. I'd add that in round numbers, with standard tyres on 15" rims (in my case 145-15 Michelin XZX) you do 4,000 rpm for 100 kph. It'll do that all day but is on the busy side, noise-wise. The original 1100 engines were prone to failure of the top ring land at high mileage, allowing little bits of piston ring into the combustion chambers. That would point you to a new sleeve kit at the least if the engine is original.

There are different views, but we found a 40 kg bag of cement in the front of the R8 greatly improved cross-wind stability when ours was used on the Freeway in Perth a lot. Cement bags are now 20 kg.

Mr 4cvgordini had poor results with Hall Effect kits. I had the opposite experience with the one branded "Hot Spark" but you are still relying on the centrifugal (mechanical) advance system and the pivots wear out in the end (although they can be rebushed). I fitted a 123 electronic distributor in the end, a couple of years ago, and the performance seems no different to me but it starts MUCH better and runs more smoothly on a slight throttle opening. Not cheap. The original system works perfectly well when set up properly but I agree with him about the Gammatronix unit - I have a 6V one on my 4CV and the beauty (for me) is the minimal current switching from the points, which show no marks on the faces after some years.

Regarding brakes, several of us in WA use silicone brake fluid, and since you'll perhaps do a full overhaul you could take the opportunity to change. Not everyone agrees but I've found the complete lack of corrosion and long life very appealing. When I dismantled my 4CV brakes after 25 years with silicone everything was perfect, full stop. With the R8/10, corrosion behind the seal grooves in the callipers is the issue. I still have a tiny leak somewhere - not a drip to be found - but if you clean them up super-carefully when re-sealing they behave OK.

I've had Konis for many years on the R8. Totally agree that this is worth doing. PM me if you'd like detailed information about the lower mounting brackets, as there are indeed two types and you need the later ones for new Konis.

The car might still have its original windscreen - if so remember it is not laminated, and one day you'll get that stone....... Some people have fitted two-speed wipers using R12 components. I haven't bothered but do have a foot switch that gives one sweep and rewired very slightly to give automatic parking.

Back in the day, people fitted R12 or Fuego tombstone seats for comfort and neck protection. First find your seats though.

Don't hit anything. They are not strong by modern standards!

Good luck with it.

Hi John, thanks for your input, much appreciated. In regards to changing to silicon brake fluid I assume a thorough flush or the brake system is required, what is the best way to achieve this?
Matt

 

[rubyalpine]

I've got 14x5 wheels on my R10, made up from Toyota Corolla rims with custom made laser cut centre discs. I'm happy!

 

[schlitzaugen]

Be wary of silicone and non-hygroscopic brake fluids. Water is not absorbed hence it will accumulate in bubbles in the system and cause corrosion inside. In colder climates these can also freeze and leave you with no brakes.

 

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

I am not an engineer but this is what I take the story to be:

Imagine a torsion bar. Fix one end & apply a twisting force to the other. The bar accommodates this force by distorting along its length. Lots of molecules & their bonds are involved in this accommodation. As distortion increases the bonds resist it more (until rupture occurs).

With a shorter bar, & for a given twisting force, fewer bonds are accommodating the force & the bar is initially distorted more & the bonds involved thus enter the greater resistance zone earlier.

I no longer recall where I got this from & I would be delighted to have someone more technically competent in the area supply an antithetical analysis. No doubt there’s an “explainer” or three out there in the web. I haven’t yet looked.

Yes, of course the spring rate will increase with less turns.

 

[Andrew Watkins]

Hi Peter, after doing some research I agree with you and Bustamif that 14’’ 5’’ rims offer the best tyre selection. I currently have the Pirelli P6 195 60 R14 s on my Fuego and am really happy with them.
Are the R16 wheels 4.5’’ or 5’’ ?
Also would it be possible to buy new 14’’ 5’’ rims ( for example Sunraysias) and have the cut down reinforced 10 centres fitted.
Thanks Matt

I looked into this a couple of years ago when re-rimming Reg ( 4CV ) to take proper tyres

Newway in Melbourne said that the only rims they could get were 6", at least in 15" I don't think that there is much call for this sort of mod these days,.

I ended up doing a cut and paste with GS rims (4.5" ) onto the 4CV centres. I doubt that you'd get new 5"

BEst Wishes

Andrew

 

[JohnW]

Hi John, thanks for your input, much appreciated. In regards to changing to silicon brake fluid I assume a thorough flush or the brake system is required, what is the best way to achieve this?
Matt

Hi Matt,

I did it on both cars as part of a full brake overhaul - new rubber everything was happening anyway. I flushed the copper pipe with meths and let it dry overnight if I recall. I've a compressor now, so would have blown then through after flushing with meths. Didn't have it then.

Don't let the silicone fluid get aerated.....

 

[JohnW]

I looked into this a couple of years ago when re-rimming Reg ( 4CV ) to take proper tyres

Newway in Melbourne said that the only rims they could get were 6", at least in 15" I don't think that there is much call for this sort of mod these days,.

I ended up doing a cut and paste with GS rims (4.5" ) onto the 4CV centres. I doubt that you'd get new 5"

BEst Wishes

Andrew

Seems sensible as a compromise. I've found that going from 135-15 ZX to 145-15 XZX on the 4" rims on the R8 is a substantial improvement. They are listed in the driver's handbook as an option. Much better turn-in. Circumference is 3% greater so negligible change to gearing.

 

[R4gene]

I've got 14x5 wheels on my R10, made up from Toyota Corolla rims with custom made laser cut centre discs. I'm happy!

Wheels look great, suit the car, in keeping with it’s period styling

 

[Bustamif]

Sorry I can't help with 13 inch wheels, I don't have a full set.

 

[4cvgordini]

Hi Peter, after doing some research I agree with you and Bustamif that 14’’ 5’’ rims offer the best tyre selection. I currently have the Pirelli P6 195 60 R14 s on my Fuego and am really happy with them.
Are the R16 wheels 4.5’’ or 5’’ ?
Also would it be possible to buy new 14’’ 5’’ rims ( for example Sunraysias) and have the cut down reinforced 10 centres fitted.
Thanks Matt

R16 wheels are 4.5" so P6 Pirellis are not an option. If wanting 5" rims, then old Valiant rims are 5". I have two sitting in the shed & I'll see if they'll mate with R16 centres (much stronger than cut down R10 15"). Update later this week.
It that doesn't prove viable, then one can get a wheelwright to cut down & reinforce R10 rims to suit Valiant rims (contact a Valiant owners' club in your state).
It sounds like Corolla rims are another (& no doubt more available) option. Again I'd measure an R16 wheel's centre diameter to make sure it's not less than a Corolla's & use those centres if possible. If you end up having to cut down R10 ones, then I'll explain the reinforcement (it works well).

 

[R4gene]

R16 wheels are 4.5" so P6 Pirellis are not an option. If wanting 5" rims, then old Valiant rims are 5". I have two sitting in the shed & I'll see if they'll mate with R16 centres (much stronger than cut down R10 15"). Update later this week.
It that doesn't prove viable, then one can get a wheelwright to cut down & reinforce R10 rims to suit Valiant rims (contact a Valiant owners' club in your state).
It sounds like Corolla rims are another (& no doubt more available) option. Again I'd measure an R16 wheel's centre diameter to make sure it's not less than a Corolla's & use those centres if possible. If you end up having to cut down R10 ones, then I'll explain the reinforcement (it works well).

Thanks Peter, look forward to hearing how you go matching the R16 centres with Valiant rims. Seems like I have a few options for achieving a 14’’ 5’’ wheel. Matt

 

[R4gene]

Sorry I can't help with 13 inch wheels, I don't have a full set.

Thanks

 

[jaahn]

Thanks Peter, look forward to hearing how you go matching the R16 centres with Valiant rims. Seems like I have a few options for achieving a 14’’ 5’’ wheel. Matt

Hi
Just a word of advice about fitting and making up wheels of smaller diameter. The brake calipers do get in the way and might need grinding off a bit. It is many years since I did that sort of thing so those who know should give some more information and not imply it is just a simple bolt on job. You might need to mount the Valiant rims inside out on the inners.
Back to the original discussion. My suggestions would be, in order; (depending on what real use you are giving it and normal loading )
1 lower the car at the front a bit, and at the back to give a bit of good camber on the wheels. Probably cut the springs. And shorten the droop straps.
2 wider wheels at the rear, smaller diameter, and more track.
3 good tires both ends. Do not go for low profile tires at the rear as they do get up on an edge when the back end jacks up. You need a flexible tire to keep the grip with camber change.
4 remove the rear brake valve and fit T piece.
Then try it out and see how you like it to drive. The motor can always be changed of tweked. Jaahn

 

[4cvgordini]

R16 wheels are 4.5" so P6 Pirellis are not an option. If wanting 5" rims, then old Valiant rims are 5". I have two sitting in the shed & I'll see if they'll mate with R16 centres (much stronger than cut down R10 15"). Update later this week.
It that doesn't prove viable, then one can get a wheelwright to cut down & reinforce R10 rims to suit Valiant rims (contact a Valiant owners' club in your state).
It sounds like Corolla rims are another (& no doubt more available) option. Again I'd measure an R16 wheel's centre diameter to make sure it's not less than a Corolla's & use those centres if possible. If you end up having to cut down R10 ones, then I'll explain the reinforcement (it works well).

Actually, I erred here. As earlier observed, 175/70-14 is OK with 4.5 & is available in the P6.

In response to Jahn: I have found 185/60-14 to be a nice rear size which is not upset by camber shift.

 

[4cvgordini]

Thanks Peter, look forward to hearing how you go matching the R16 centres with Valiant rims. Seems like I have a few options for achieving a 14’’ 5’’ wheel. Matt

The Valiant wheel rim wells will not, I think, meet the R16 centres. I bought them with a view to cutting down standard 15s but the wheelwright had some 4.5" rims available so I used those (all reinforced as mentioned earlier).

So, simply reversing the R16 rims & fitting 175/70-14 Pirelli P6 tyres seems still to be the easiest way forward. They will clear the brake callipers.