Modest upgrades to an R10

[4cvgordini]

Just one small addendum:

The options for 14" are basically 4.5" or something wider.
For the former, the rear tyres will possibly be 175/70. For the latter, a nice rear tyre size is 185/60.

One issue is spare tyres. One consideration is having the spare wheel/tyre physically fit in the nose cradle. Another is having the spare tyre size have a very close circumference length to the rear road tyre. (The issue here is not stressingto the extent of straining the differential if the spare has to be used for anything but a shortish distance.)
Both concerns are covered by having an original wheel with a 135/80-15 spare for a 175/70-14 rear & a 145/65-15 spare for a I85/60-14 rear.

For 135/80-15, I'd buy Nankang's CX-668 & for 145/65-15, I'd buy Nankang's AS-1. In each case it will be a tubeless tyre but that's fine on the R8/R10 rims - just check for slow leaks & goop as appropriate (bead or rivet area).

It would be interesting at some point to have you report back on what you ended up doing & how it turned out.

cheers! Peter

 

[R4gene]

Hi all, update on R10. Car is now in my shed airing out .It is a little rough around the edges, not planning a full restro though. I few bits and pieces missing in the interior. Engine had the head off, so something was going on. Engine spins, but chucking oil up no1 cylinder. Gearbox selects all gears. Back screen fell out on the car trailer when previous owner moved it out of his paddock. Back wing rusted out, but I have a replacement. Floor has rust under matts, but feels solid from underneath.
Have found a 40 doce Weber, will go with finding some R16 wheel to convert, also found some koni s.

 

[Bustamif]

Is there an inlet manifold to go with the Weber ? they were plentiful back in the day but a little hard to find these days.

 

[4cvgordini]

The Lynx crossflow cast aluminium one is what you refer to I think. Its merit was pairing cylinders 1 & 4 to one throat of the DCOE & 2 & 3 to the other, thus minimising flow fight. Someone said that Lynx were back in action but I can't see this one being on their urgent (or even non-urgent) list.

It would be easy to get an inlet manifold made up that wasn't Lynx style.

A not terribly clear pic of a Lynx in my R8 is below. A clearer pic of a Lynx (with Dellorto) in my Djet is also attached.

 

[R4gene]

Is there an inlet manifold to go with the Weber ? they were plentiful back in the day but a little hard to find these days.

Yes I have the lynx inlet manifold to go with the Weber

 

[R4gene]

I don’t have a exhaust though, only the standard exhaust manifold. I am thinking of making one up from pre-bent sections off eBay unless I can find one ready made. Does anyone make them in Australia for R8/R10 or only in the Eu or UK?

 

[rubyalpine]

"Extractor" manifolds and mufflers are available from Mecaparts (France) for (I think) a fair price.
Cost me less than quoted for a one-off build in N.Z.

 

[4cvgordini]

I don’t have a exhaust though, only the standard exhaust manifold. I am thinking of making one up from pre-bent sections off eBay unless I can find one ready made. Does anyone make them in Australia for R8/R10 or only in the Eu or UK?

Why not simply get an exhaust guy to make one up to your specs for diameters & lengths of the pipes? I'd recommend a stainless exhaust & decently thick ceramic coating.

 

[renault8&10]

Not sure where you’re located but Colliers in Granville NSW can make up an exhaust using the std R12 manifold and the lynx inlet manifold. You’d hardly notice the difference in performance and it will be a lot easier and cheaper.

I ran that setup on the white 10 in my avatar for nearly 15 years before moving to a custom twin Weber setup. Keep it simple and don’t over think it.

 

[Bowie]

I don’t have a exhaust though, only the standard exhaust manifold. I am thinking of making one up from pre-bent sections off eBay unless I can find one ready made. Does anyone make them in Australia for R8/R10 or only in the Eu or UK?

That's pretty much what I'm looking at doing. A clever bloke here went and practised with ~30mm PVC drain pipe from Bunnings, heating it to bend easily and then used it as a template mocking it up.

But a general plus 1 for colliers. They have helped me out with other odd bits and pieces in the past. Cool chaps!

I always thought those cross over manifolds just added too many bends? At higher RPM the straight manifold is better?

 

[renault8&10]

What colliers do is you hacksaw off the inlet part from the standard manifold so you can use your lynx side draft setup. They use the std flange and gasket at the base of the manifold for the exhaust, then get a pipe mandrel bent to weld to this and use a slip joint for the muffler that runs “north-south” beside the motor to the rear. They make a mount to the side of the block; and then a rubber mount for the rear engine mount.

So from the bottom of the manifold (which points to the back of the car) they do a 180 bend to the front, then another to come back making room for the muffler. I think they used to use Lukey sports mufflers. Any exhaust shop anywhere in Oz should be capable of doing the same, the only trick is the mandrel bend to avoid excessive kinking. I’d probably have some pics of my old setup somewhere.

I’ve just seen that you’re in Lidsdale near Lithgow. After lockdowns end, I’d recommend talking to Colliers as that would be the easiest route but if you want to persist in going independently I’m based in western Sydney and have a Collier setup sitting in the shed off the car. I don’t want to sell it, but you could come measure it up, photograph it etc to get an idea of what you’re doing.

KB

 

[renault8&10]

I can’t find any pics of the mandrel bend and muffler mount but here’s a couple of the mods to the std manifold - note the plate made to re-use the std R8/10 throttle return spring and connection.

 

[R4gene]

Thanks for the input and photos everyone much appreciated.Yes I agree Colliers in Granville are great to deal with, no matter how how ignorant my questions and requests are .
I am probably going to be stubborn and persist with trying to make my own Frankenstein extractors, I have a standard inlet/ outlet I don’t mind sacrificing. Good tip on doing a mock up in plastic, thanks Bowie.
Will definitely take you up on your kind offer KB and come have a look at your Colliers creation , will probably be making the trip to Sydney to see family in early November ( that’s assuming that the world turns out not to be round but flat and I have to start digging an apocalypse bunker).

 

[Greenpeace]

I haven't read through all the previous posts but has anyone suggested supercharging the original engine? AMR500s are a good little unit (about the size of an alternator) and can be picked up for a few hundred bucks off EBay. No need for special manifolds if you don't want to go that route. Just build a plenum that bolts to the original carby pad and extend it forward enough to bring the supercharger in line with the drive pulley. I don't worry about coming off the crank if access is limited, I get a suitable sized pulley from the wreckers, machine it if necessary and weld it to the water pump pulley. Most old cars only have the alternator/generator and water pump/fan running off the crank. The pump pulley is generally a decent size and hence has a goodly amount of belt wrap to transmit the power onwards (via the extra pulley and belt) to a small supercharger. Make an adaptor and bolt on your carby of choice, I usually use an 1 3/4" SU, but you could just use your stock carby. Only other mod needed is to halve the travel in the mechanical advance in the distributor and if it has vacuum advance either disable it or fit a one way valve in the line. You can fine tune the total advance (that the engine can take) by fiddling with the static timing.
I have supercharged all manner of vehicles and have never been disappointed with the results.
It is cheaper than conventional performance mods, Webers, head, cam etc and you get a much more pleasant car to drive while having the same or better performance than the "hotted up" engine. You don't need to rev it up and slip the clutch like a "hottie engine" and you'll only need to shift gears half as much. Shoot for 6 or 7 psi of boost and I guarantee you'll love it, it makes your existing engine feel twice the size. Interestingly going the plenum route and blowing into the original carby hole will give you a more torquey engine than if you fabricate a bespoke manifold that links the blower directly to the inlet ports!

One of my current drives is a Reliant Regal 3 wheeler. It has an AMR300 (the 500s little brother) that is set up exactly as described above. I've been running this setup for 5 years now (at 10psi) with nary a problem. The engine is a Reliant Robin 850cc, stock except for extractors and the car is an absolute pocket rocket as it only weighs 340kg. To put it in context it's half the weight of an original 1275 Cooper S but has the same power.

I've also applied this same AMR500 setup (as described) to a 1924 1100cc Rover, a 1500 twin port Beetle and a A15 Nissan motor that was fitted in a 1949 Morris, all with very satisfying results.
I've built kits for larger engines using Toyota SC 14s, GM and Powerdyne superchargers.
I've only ever done one blow through carby set up, I've found draw through is much easier to tune.

Worth considering at least.

 

[rubyalpine]

The set-up as per R8&10 pictures above is fine if you have an R12 motor but will be problematic on an R10 motor because the exhaust manifold and generator wil be in the same place! You will then need to re-position generator/alternator to right hand side, requiring new mounting bracket, water pump and maybe fanbelt, and extended wiring. FYI.

Henry

 

[renault8&10]

The set-up as per R8&10 pictures above is fine if you have an R12 motor but will be problematic on an R10 motor because the exhaust manifold and generator wil be in the same place! You will then need to re-position generator/alternator to right hand side, requiring new mounting bracket, water pump and maybe fanbelt, and extended wiring. FYI.

Henry

Good point. I made my post on the assumption that an R12 engine was on the cards, however I was confused by a similar post in the Renault section where another poster asked a similar question but actually stated that they had a 1.4 visage engine. Cheers.

 

[Bowie]

I haven't read through all the previous posts but has anyone suggested supercharging the original engine? AMR500s are a good little unit (about the size of an alternator) and can be picked up for a few hundred bucks off EBay. No need for special manifolds if you don't want to go that route. Just build a plenum that bolts to the original carby pad and extend it forward enough to bring the supercharger in line with the drive pulley. I don't worry about coming off the crank if access is limited, I get a suitable sized pulley from the wreckers, machine it if necessary and weld it to the water pump pulley. Most old cars only have the alternator/generator and water pump/fan running off the crank. The pump pulley is generally a decent size and hence has a goodly amount of belt wrap to transmit the power onwards (via the extra pulley and belt) to a small supercharger. Make an adaptor and bolt on your carby of choice, I usually use an 1 3/4" SU, but you could just use your stock carby. Only other mod needed is to halve the travel in the mechanical advance in the distributor and if it has vacuum advance either disable it or fit a one way valve in the line. You can fine tune the total advance (that the engine can take) by fiddling with the static timing.
I have supercharged all manner of vehicles and have never been disappointed with the results.
It is cheaper than conventional performance mods, Webers, head, cam etc and you get a much more pleasant car to drive while having the same or better performance than the "hotted up" engine. You don't need to rev it up and slip the clutch like a "hottie engine" and you'll only need to shift gears half as much. Shoot for 6 or 7 psi of boost and I guarantee you'll love it, it makes your existing engine feel twice the size. Interestingly going the plenum route and blowing into the original carby hole will give you a more torquey engine than if you fabricate a bespoke manifold that links the blower directly to the inlet ports!

One of my current drives is a Reliant Regal 3 wheeler. It has an AMR300 (the 500s little brother) that is set up exactly as described above. I've been running this setup for 5 years now (at 10psi) with nary a problem. The engine is a Reliant Robin 850cc, stock except for extractors and the car is an absolute pocket rocket as it only weighs 340kg. To put it in context it's half the weight of an original 1275 Cooper S but has the same power.

I've also applied this same AMR500 setup (as described) to a 1924 1100cc Rover, a 1500 twin port Beetle and a A15 Nissan motor that was fitted in a 1949 Morris, all with very satisfying results.
I've built kits for larger engines using Toyota SC 14s, GM and Powerdyne superchargers.
I've only ever done one blow through carby set up, I've found draw through is much easier to tune.

Worth considering at least.

Happy to hear those amr500’s are a bit of fun.

I’ve seen them around on all sorts of things but assumed they would just spin so fast, generate heaps of heat and not be that efficient.

 

[Greenpeace]

Happy to hear those amr500’s are a bit of fun.

I’ve seen them around on all sorts of things but assumed they would just spin so fast, generate heaps of heat and not be that efficient.

No they work really well as long as you don't put them on too big an engine and hence need to spin them too fast.
The AMR500 is rated to 16000 RPM and is capable of flowing 130 BHP. They are self contained, they have a small oil reservoir for the gears and the rotors run in sealed bearings.
The rotors are Teflon coated which reduces heat soak in the rotors and permits tighter tolerances; so they have minimal air bleed back past the rotors tips at lower RPMs.
I assume the R10 being discussed is 1100cc so to give 7 psi of boost an AMR500 would need to be driven at 1.65 times crank speed. I'm guessing the stock R10 redline is around 6K, so max blower speed would be 10000 RPM (at this engine speed), way under its 16K limit. Thing is with an engine running a positive displacement supercharger like an AMR (which is a 2 lobe Roots style blower) you have this big fat torque curve from very low RPMs so you tend to short shift anyway and just enjoy the ride.
Fuel economy is generally the same or slightly better than stock for this very reason (you don't need to rev the ring out of it to make rapid progress). Supercharged engines aren't overly fussy on exhaust design, all the tri-y or
4 into 1, tube diameter, primary/secondary length arguments are pretty irrelevant on a blown engine. I found a couple of photos of 2 different but standard R10 exhaust manifolds and they both actually looked fairly efficient in design. I'd keep the stock manifold, check the basics, that the cylinder head ports, gasket and manifold ports match etc, fit the largest diameter pipe the flange will allow and run a free flow muffler.
I've built plenty of cammed up, multi carbed, fancy headers, ported/polished, big valved, high compression engines in my time. I've haven't built an engine like this since the first time I went down the supercharger route.
Worth noting is the more the base engine is modified the less "noticable" the gains are from supercharging. An older design stock engine like the R10 probably has 80% volumetric efficiency, so the blower increases the VE to 100% and then makes boost. A well modified naturally aspirated R10 engine might already be approaching 100% VE so the gains felt on this type of engine are from the boost alone. This is assuming the same engine capacity, same blower, blower speed etc.
The stock engine's gains will have a much more noticeable "seat of the pants" feel than the modified engine's gains will.
Roots blown engines of any capacity are awesome to drive compared to their stock brethren. I'd say to anyone who hasn't been down this route but wants more power, "find out what you're missing out on".

 

[Bowie]

Thanks for that Greenpeace! Encouraging.

EDIT! And you say you are using a simple large SU out the front, and passing the mixture via the supercharger., heck even at 7000rpm, 7psi, @ 1.65 times crank speed it really is well under it's max speed. Hmm

I think I was last reading about these in conjunction with VW engines, mustn't have read carefully.

#EDIT EDIT, oh no there is a $300 one in Tasmania on gumtree at the moment.. oh my oh my.

 

[Greenpeace]

Thanks for that Greenpeace! Encouraging.

EDIT! And you say you are using a simple large SU out the front, and passing the mixture via the supercharger., heck even at 7000rpm, 7psi, @ 1.65 times crank speed it really is well under it's max speed. Hmm

I think I was last reading about these in conjunction with VW engines, mustn't have read carefully.

#EDIT EDIT, oh no there is a $300 one in Tasmania on gumtree at the moment.. oh my oh my.

Trouble is these days all the younger folk think anything modified not making 1000hp is a shopping trolley.
If you just want to make an older (smaller capacity) car that only just keeps up with traffic and dies in the arse over hills no longer struggle doing so an AMR supercharger is perfect.
The single port 1500 Beetle I converted was actually the most dramatic of the lot. It was my oldest daughter's car and had the infamous semi-auto gearbox. I used an AMR300 on it and ran it at 3.5 times crank speed. Seeing how a stock Bug engine runs out of steam at 4K I figured the blower would never see 16K. I ran a 2" SU on this one mainly because I had one laying around at the time. It made 5.5 psi of usable boost and 59hp at the WHEELS. Remember this engine was only rated 44hp at the CRANK when brand new, probably around 33hp at the wheels. The blower went on to make 7psi of boost but the power curve flatlined at 5.5psi. This indicated the boost was only building in the manifold at that point (5.5 psi) and couldn't get past the tiny valves with their extremely mild valve timing. What these figures don't show is the big fat torque curve a blower gives. My daughter and her husband started calling it the Bullfrog as jumped like a frog through the gears, brap, brap brap. He drove a modified XR6 and she couldn't keep him out of her Beetle!
The SUs take a bit of fiddling to get right but once you're there they run great. Most common mistake people make with SUs (on a blower) is trying to get the piston to rise quicker when usually the problem is, it is already lifting too fast. I ran a 350 2 barrel Holley on a AMR500 once and it worked quite well too.