For sure.....if you are ever in Hobart thats No Problem !!
Cheers Ben !
Maybe even have a a_drink
Cheers Ben !
Maybe even have a a_drink
Hot 505
- Thread starter Pug_405_Mi16
- Start date
Ben,
How the hell are you going to fit so much cam lift into the block?
I agree with pretty much everything Grahm Wallis said.
On a road going 2 litre 505 it might be better to use a Wade 240 cam (30/70) rather than go as wild as the 140 (40/70).
An XN1 head with the side milled out of it and then welded up to give 4 separate 36mm ports might be the go, unless you can find an XN6 head.
Twin 40mm DCOE Webers would be as large as I would go on a road going 2 litre. If the engine is going to make more than 155hp then the 45mm Webers are worth while, but engines built to below this spec will generally loose power and driveability if 45mm carbs are used. If you want to go larger then injection is often a safer bet.
I guess if you already have 45mm carbs and a TI head lying around, like you said, then that's what you use.
Having said all this, these are my future plans for a hot one of these engines:
-block bored and fitted with pressed in modified Citroen Cx liners, liners bored to 93.5mm to fit Ford 6 cylinder pistosn (with 1mm shaved from top to give 38mm compression height) to give 2225cc
-TI head with 44.5mm inlet valves and 37.5mm exhausts
-combustions chambers welded to raise compression and give squish areas
-long intake runners with Quad 50mm injection throttle bodies
-Wade 140 cam
I think 160-175hp and 205-225Nm of torque is possible, this way, and cheaper than you may think (providing you build the computer yourself, and the throttle bodies, and do the headwork yourself, all of which I plan to do).
Dave McBean
<small>[ 21 June 2002, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: fiveohs ]</small>
How the hell are you going to fit so much cam lift into the block?
I agree with pretty much everything Grahm Wallis said.
On a road going 2 litre 505 it might be better to use a Wade 240 cam (30/70) rather than go as wild as the 140 (40/70).
An XN1 head with the side milled out of it and then welded up to give 4 separate 36mm ports might be the go, unless you can find an XN6 head.
Twin 40mm DCOE Webers would be as large as I would go on a road going 2 litre. If the engine is going to make more than 155hp then the 45mm Webers are worth while, but engines built to below this spec will generally loose power and driveability if 45mm carbs are used. If you want to go larger then injection is often a safer bet.
I guess if you already have 45mm carbs and a TI head lying around, like you said, then that's what you use.
Having said all this, these are my future plans for a hot one of these engines:
-block bored and fitted with pressed in modified Citroen Cx liners, liners bored to 93.5mm to fit Ford 6 cylinder pistosn (with 1mm shaved from top to give 38mm compression height) to give 2225cc
-TI head with 44.5mm inlet valves and 37.5mm exhausts
-combustions chambers welded to raise compression and give squish areas
-long intake runners with Quad 50mm injection throttle bodies
-Wade 140 cam
I think 160-175hp and 205-225Nm of torque is possible, this way, and cheaper than you may think (providing you build the computer yourself, and the throttle bodies, and do the headwork yourself, all of which I plan to do).
Dave McBean
<small>[ 21 June 2002, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: fiveohs ]</small>
Errr Why not just fit a SR20DET. It may be a jap motor, but you can't beat a Modern EFI Turbo to make something shit hot.
and you still keep the good bits out of a Peugeot, I really wouldn't call a pug motor overly special.
and you still keep the good bits out of a Peugeot, I really wouldn't call a pug motor overly special.
I forgot to mention that I want to put this motor in a lightened 504.
On the subject of othe engines:
505 GTi motor:
apparently goes well with twin webers and can probably get more horsepower per litre than the XN engine due to better head and rocker design, but it's not as tough a motor as the XN, nor is it anywhere near as easy to work on.
V6:
can probably get more power power litre than either of them due to big valves and short stroke, but V6 conversions require a number of very expensive things:
-piston and sleeve kit
-engineers certificate
-bellhousing
-gearbox input shaft
-Graham Wallis & Pugrambo and other have done this conversion cheaper than you could probably do it now, because they and others have used up most of the supply of bits needed for the conversion, in Australia.
I think that a basic rebuilt stock V6 conversion is definitely way on the wrong side of $2000 these days. I know I can build myself a pretty damn hot XN motor for that. Sure the V6 would be ALOT faster, but I think an 160hp, 200Nm XN is more than enough to have plenty of fun. Having said that, I'd really like to try a modified 200hp+ V6 conversion, one day.
I'm looking at around $1500 bucks for the big bore conversion to the XN block (at Westend performance in Campbelltown), plus $300 worth of ICs, wiring, etc to build the computer, plus $500 to have the head welded and larger valves fitted, plus 200 for engine balancing, plus $100 for a special big bore headgasket, plus a few hundred dollars for me to make the inlet manifold and get four 50mm injection throttle bodies fitted to it and make myself the linkages, etc. All the rest needed for the wild 2225cc conversion is pretty cheap.
Dave McBean
<small>[ 21 June 2002, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: fiveohs ]</small>
On the subject of othe engines:
505 GTi motor:
apparently goes well with twin webers and can probably get more horsepower per litre than the XN engine due to better head and rocker design, but it's not as tough a motor as the XN, nor is it anywhere near as easy to work on.
V6:
can probably get more power power litre than either of them due to big valves and short stroke, but V6 conversions require a number of very expensive things:
-piston and sleeve kit
-engineers certificate
-bellhousing
-gearbox input shaft
-Graham Wallis & Pugrambo and other have done this conversion cheaper than you could probably do it now, because they and others have used up most of the supply of bits needed for the conversion, in Australia.
I think that a basic rebuilt stock V6 conversion is definitely way on the wrong side of $2000 these days. I know I can build myself a pretty damn hot XN motor for that. Sure the V6 would be ALOT faster, but I think an 160hp, 200Nm XN is more than enough to have plenty of fun. Having said that, I'd really like to try a modified 200hp+ V6 conversion, one day.
I'm looking at around $1500 bucks for the big bore conversion to the XN block (at Westend performance in Campbelltown), plus $300 worth of ICs, wiring, etc to build the computer, plus $500 to have the head welded and larger valves fitted, plus 200 for engine balancing, plus $100 for a special big bore headgasket, plus a few hundred dollars for me to make the inlet manifold and get four 50mm injection throttle bodies fitted to it and make myself the linkages, etc. All the rest needed for the wild 2225cc conversion is pretty cheap.
Dave McBean
<small>[ 21 June 2002, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: fiveohs ]</small>
Oh, and I forgot to mention that my "ultimate" XN engine would have to have an MSD ignition system with programmable advance curves and a 2.25" mandrel bent exhaust, but I've already got all that stuff sitting in wait (the MSD is a build yourself Jaycar kit).
Dave
Dave
Be careful about porting the inlet side of a TI head because it's already too large for carbs. Just focus on removing the boss crap around the valve guide and the area just before the valve seat. You can also taper and shorten the valve guides a bit.
The factory 140hp rally 504s had 44.5mm inlet valves and 37.5mm exhausts.
I wouldn't polish the inlet ports on a carby car either. Injection maybe, carby no.
Dave
Dave,
The head is already done ! Alan has modded a Carbie head to take the DCOE's...he spent many many months working on this head.....and as far as I have seen Alan is one of the best head workers around....he really knew his stuff !
Ummmm the block will be left standard apart from the cam....the head and carbies will be the major mod....I have everything done....just need to drop the engine and gearbox into the car !!
head_ban
Cheers Ben ! mallet
The head is already done ! Alan has modded a Carbie head to take the DCOE's...he spent many many months working on this head.....and as far as I have seen Alan is one of the best head workers around....he really knew his stuff !
Ummmm the block will be left standard apart from the cam....the head and carbies will be the major mod....I have everything done....just need to drop the engine and gearbox into the car !!
head_ban
Cheers Ben ! mallet
Ben,
I hope you're right. I know one guy who had is twin 45mm webered TI head ported by a "professional". The car only made 89hp at the wheels (less than 125hp at the flywheel). It went pretty well, because it was in a 404, but I know of other guys who used 40mm webers and were more moderate in their port work and their engines went better.
If he's modded a carby head, then it sounds like he knows what he's doing, because this is the way to go. If he's modifying it along the same lines as the way the smart blokes used to do the 203 and 403 heads, then you're in for a treat. It should fly.
I look forward to reading about how it goes.
What cam was it that you're using? Did you say something about 0.650" lift? How are you getting that. Are you modifying the rockers? It's hard to get more than about 0.310" of lift at the cam (about 0.370" at the valve).
Keep us posted. We're waiting anxiously.
Regards,
Dave
Ben,
What pistons are you using? AE seem to be the strongest (compare their structure to any of the others and you'll see what I mean).
Some Pug pistons can brake apart around the oil ring (usually if they've been pinking alot), but the AE pistons are obviously designed to avoid this, because they have alot more meat in the highly stressed areas, where it counts.
Dave
What pistons are you using? AE seem to be the strongest (compare their structure to any of the others and you'll see what I mean).
Some Pug pistons can brake apart around the oil ring (usually if they've been pinking alot), but the AE pistons are obviously designed to avoid this, because they have alot more meat in the highly stressed areas, where it counts.
Dave
Ben,Pug_405_Mi16:
Alan sure knows his stuff hotting up earlier Pugs !
He has had this car going before with the twin DCOE's he said it had BAGS of power....so I am assuming it will still have them
But the head going on is a highly modified 404 head that Alan designed and build some years back...should be sweet
I should have read these posts closer before. If it's using a 404 head modified in the same way as Graham's 403 head, you're 505 definitely will go like STINK.
head_ban
What valve sizes has it got? Keep us posted.
tongue
Regards,
Dave
I will be talking to Alan tonight *club meeting* I will find out.
But I am sure this will go like hell....one thing is for sure most old pug guys know Alan ! He was the guy who put a falcon motor into a 403....and now he is going to put the motor into a 203 !
Now that is a car that will move ! he had a 403 ute with the falcon motor as well...the problem is it chewed up the gearbox within 7,000 miles
Cheers Ben mallet
But I am sure this will go like hell....one thing is for sure most old pug guys know Alan ! He was the guy who put a falcon motor into a 403....and now he is going to put the motor into a 203 !
Now that is a car that will move ! he had a 403 ute with the falcon motor as well...the problem is it chewed up the gearbox within 7,000 miles
Cheers Ben mallet
There is no such thing as a kit built MSD. I run MSD6A's in both my cars. They put out spark for 20 degrees of crankshaft rotation, leaving nothing left unburnt. They put out an enormous current (rather than voltage) which can jump accross or through just about anything. I got on the wrong end of the spark one day. It was a very nasty experience. There's little to be gained by programmable timing. Once it's set up, you usually don't touch it again. As motors become more efficient, the total advance is usually retarded anyway.
[/qb][/QUOTE]There is no such thing as a kit built MSD. I run MSD6A's in both my cars. They put out spark for 20 degrees of crankshaft rotation, leaving nothing left unburnt. They put out an enormous current (rather than voltage) which can jump accross or through just about anything. I got on the wrong end of the spark one day. It was a very nasty experience. There's little to be gained by programmable timing. Once it's set up, you usually don't touch it again. As motors become more efficient, the total advance is usually retarded anyway.[/QB][/QUOTE]
Peter,
How do you define MSD? Any ignition that fires multiple times is an MSD (Multiple Spark Discharge). Such a system is not hard to design and build, and that's why Jaycar sells them. Sure, they don't fire as many times as the big money MSD setups, but they work better than a single spark.
The programmable ignition is handy when you first set the engine up on a dyno. It saves dyno shop time regraphing distributors, etc (saves money).
I think it's a bit much to say there's no such thing as a kit built MSD. Isn't that a bit like saying that humans can't build an MSD, only fairies can? It makes more sense to say that the kits that are around aren't a patch on the real thing, or something like that.
Dave
Peter,
How do you define MSD? Any ignition that fires multiple times is an MSD (Multiple Spark Discharge). Such a system is not hard to design and build, and that's why Jaycar sells them. Sure, they don't fire as many times as the big money MSD setups, but they work better than a single spark.
The programmable ignition is handy when you first set the engine up on a dyno. It saves dyno shop time regraphing distributors, etc (saves money).
I think it's a bit much to say there's no such thing as a kit built MSD. Isn't that a bit like saying that humans can't build an MSD, only fairies can? It makes more sense to say that the kits that are around aren't a patch on the real thing, or something like that.
Dave
It's been my experience that the Jaycar HEI kits are nothing more than dwell extenders, and not true multiple spark systems. They work well in laboratory situations, but under combustion pressures, they offer little adavantage. If you have a look at an MSD or Jacobs ignition, you'll notice it has very large wires to connect to the battery. Typical current is 1 amp per 1000 RPM. Most HEI kits still max. at 3 amps on the coil primary. Don't get me wrong, the Jaycar kits are fun to build and mess around with, but they don't make substantial improvements. It's better to invest in well built and designed coils, like the 6cyl Ford or Mercruiser items. An MSD will make a weak coil stronger, a HEI won't.
Ben,Pug_405_Mi16:
I will be talking to Alan tonight *club meeting* I will find out.
But I am sure this will go like hell....one thing is for sure most old pug guys know Alan ! He was the guy who put a falcon motor into a 403....and now he is going to put the motor into a 203 !
Now that is a car that will move ! he had a 403 ute with the falcon motor as well...the problem is it chewed up the gearbox within 7,000 miles
Cheers Ben mallet
Any chance you might be able to take some detailed photographs of this head and post them on the web? I'm sure there would be alot of people who'd be interested.
Regards,
Dave
Dave,
Sure....when I get my digi camera back I will do ! ummm Pug403 has it at the mo...I will get it this week and get some pics next weekend !
Going to spend tommorow working on the beast....getting ready to put the gearbox in
I cant wait till the day I pull up next to a WRX and eat it for breakfast dance
Anyhow
Cheers
Ben mallet
Sure....when I get my digi camera back I will do ! ummm Pug403 has it at the mo...I will get it this week and get some pics next weekend !
Going to spend tommorow working on the beast....getting ready to put the gearbox in
I cant wait till the day I pull up next to a WRX and eat it for breakfast dance
Anyhow
Cheers
Ben mallet
Thanks Ben. That would be great! tongue
As for WRX's, I'd be surprised if it will be as fast as that.
If I build a wild 2225cc quad throttle bodied lightened 504, I'm not expecting it to be any faster than a Porsche 924S (2.5litre). In other words, no faster than 0-100km/h in 7.5 seconds, if that, probably more like 8-8.5 seconds. Unless you have a close ratio gearbox, you would need well in excess of 220Nm to make a 1200kg car accelerate any faster than that.
The best torque figure you can hope for from an expertly modified 2 litre 8 valve engine is around 205Nm. The mid-1980s BMW 323i has similar torque to this, is over 100kg lighter than the 505 and has closer gear ratios, and is not as fast as a WRX.
Sorry if I'm the bearer of bad news. It's not all bad though, because your 505 will still be plenty fast enough. head_ban
I guess you could always get somebody to make up a close ratio gear set for the Peugeot gearbox (if you have tonnes of money that is). Check out the transmissions page of my website to see the close ratios of the BA7S gearbox that was fitted to the 504 factory rally cars.
Dave
As for WRX's, I'd be surprised if it will be as fast as that.
If I build a wild 2225cc quad throttle bodied lightened 504, I'm not expecting it to be any faster than a Porsche 924S (2.5litre). In other words, no faster than 0-100km/h in 7.5 seconds, if that, probably more like 8-8.5 seconds. Unless you have a close ratio gearbox, you would need well in excess of 220Nm to make a 1200kg car accelerate any faster than that.
The best torque figure you can hope for from an expertly modified 2 litre 8 valve engine is around 205Nm. The mid-1980s BMW 323i has similar torque to this, is over 100kg lighter than the 505 and has closer gear ratios, and is not as fast as a WRX.
Sorry if I'm the bearer of bad news. It's not all bad though, because your 505 will still be plenty fast enough. head_ban
I guess you could always get somebody to make up a close ratio gear set for the Peugeot gearbox (if you have tonnes of money that is). Check out the transmissions page of my website to see the close ratios of the BA7S gearbox that was fitted to the 504 factory rally cars.
Dave
Iam keen to hear more about the jap engine conversions
If someone feels like it, open a new thread, and let us know more info on this topic.
thanks
If someone feels like it, open a new thread, and let us know more info on this topic.
thanks
I wish I had money to give my 505 GR more performance.
Alas I am a poor student
Is there anything really simple and cheap I can do? blush
Maybe I should invest in a replacement carb (hate my silly Solex!)
Alas I am a poor student
Is there anything really simple and cheap I can do? blush
Maybe I should invest in a replacement carb (hate my silly Solex!)