205 Si 1.6L Auto Rescue

[Lincolne]

Hi,

I guess this is another one of those threads that pop up of people taking on a project with good intentions and watching their wallet slim down. Many years ago I had the pleasure of semi-regularly driving a lovely black 205 GTi and the memory of my butt so close to the ground wrestling through roundabouts at high speed while ignoring the bakes has stayed with me since then. I know people refer to these cars as 'go carts' but that's doing them a real disservice and understates the experience. Modern cars don't get it.

I'd been looking for another GTI for the past couple of years, however these seem to vary from $3K for a rusted stripped shell to mid-20s+ for a vehicle with 250,000+k on the odometer and the usual undisclosed problems and rubbish paint.

'Plan B' was to attack this from a different direction - rather than buy a GTI and hope to get that experience, I figured a better way would be to buy something cheap and basic and build that experience myself. People ignore the SI's ('Mum's Taxi' syndrome I guess) and the less attractive it is mechanically the better the possible deal.

Day 1 - Gumtree and Scotch

Anyway, this project started in earnest about a week ago when surfing Gumtree late at night after a couple of scotches and I stumbled across this:

205 Si 1992 1.6L auto 263,000 km listed for sale at $2,950. Comes with power steering and air condition as well

I can do that - after all if things go south I can probably part it out and get some money back. I hopped online and checked the registration details and writeoff status ( bargain - registered until March 2023 !). Sale through a local dealer - second time they had sold the car (previous owner apparently traded it on an Alpa Romeo so no accounting for taste).

So, pushing the impulse down I bookmarked the ad and ignored it for a while - If this is meant to happen (or I'm an idiot) then it will be waiting for me later.

Day 7 - Patience may be a virtue but ...

So its Friday and the ad is still there.

• I call the dealer - Car still available.
• Various receipts going back several decades
• Take it for a test drive - memories still there
• Buy it (credit card - weird feeling)
• Car had 3/4 a tank of petrol to sweeten the deal.

According to the paperwork its' got a range of issues - beyond basic safety problems like questionable brakes and bald tyres it's leaking coolant and oil (head gasket or something worse) and doesn't look like it's been serviced in a while. Guessing from the papers it's spent most of the past year in someones driveway with minimal driving.

Driving it home was nice. Despite having less puff than a 30 year old tin of escargot the 'butt to the ground' feel was there and brakes don't matter that much if you just don't use them. This is looking like it might work out.

But that's OK. It is French, and many of the bits with problems are bits I intend to discard so for $3,500 less the price of a cold beer it will do for a start.

Paintwork is trash. No - I don't mean the usual 205 quality but someone has buffed it very badly and in-between the usual flaking there is a lovely set of zebra stripes scattered across the car. I've worked out the initial interim colour scheme though:

• Microfibre and chamois the windows until they vanish (brilliant)
• Let the dirt accumulate on the rest and hide the zebra

The cabin fit out is consistent with other 205's I have read of both here on the forum and elsewhere. The drivers seat is still firm, but the cloth has seen better days. General interior looks clean (thankfully the previous owners used car mats !) however the dash had a few surprises.

Driving home in the warm afternoon the dash began to vibrate. At first I had the thought that the engine mounts may be a little loose, but then the little blue blobs began to appear. A recent owner had used a bit to much gusto doing work on the dash, and quite a few of the plastics were broken. Undeterred, they decided to fix them with Blu Tack. Looks like it's time to start putting together a shopping list.


Day 8 - Initial Basic Maintenance

I took it for a drive and it started to stutter. Not surprising given it's possibly been sitting for a while (how old was that fuel ?). Either way it's time to spend some money and catch up on the basics.

So here it is in what I expect is a common position for French cars - on stands, bonnet up and promising to surprise in new and expensive ways

A crawl around underneath does not turn up any killer problems. There is no wire to the oil sensor on the sump, and the cable to the O2 sensor is could up and cable tied poorly (but not dragging on the ground).

The list so far:

• New spark plugs ( $7 each so why not)
• Oil change (pending finding a driver for the sump plug - tomorrow's job)
• New Oil Filter (what drunken frog puts a filter there - does the radiator need to come out every time the filter is changed ???)
• An additional in-line fuel filter until I can find a 'proper' one
• Will probably bleed the brakes to see if that helps - a bit soft at present so we'll see if they can be improved

I'll start toting up the costs. The oil was on special, and the oil filter cost me $1. I expect other parts won't be so cheap.

Hopefully later this week I'll find some cheap tyres so the front wheels have grip across the whole surface, and I'll see what a wheel alignment turns up. Given whatever horses are left under the bonnet I doubt I'll need anything exotic to grip the road for a while but it will at least help avoid awkward questions from helpful law enforcement officers.

There is also a suspicious patch of clean, new sound deading spray in the front drivers side wheel arch that has me thinking. I'll get the angle grinder out with an abrasive disk and strip this off later this week just in case there is rust or something lurking under there that kills this project.

Future Plans

The beauty of such projects - what will the end result look like. I'm fairly sure that it won't be a GTI clone though.

The goal is to get this to look something like a semi-stock Pug. Keep the original grey colour scheme, fix the interior, better wheels and Rallye wheel arches are definitely in scope. A 5 speed manual gearbox, upgraded rear axel with disc brakes, and of course the question of what engine to replace the ageing XU5M3 with (I suspect that I need to find a XU10J4R somewhere to rebuild) so probably time to find a convenient 306 Rallye or similar to part out.

Richard W's post at https://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/index.php?threads/205-gti6-xu10j4rs-conversion-guide-checklist.117605/ makes extremely interesting reading.

As with all posts like this on the forum - suggestions welcome, and thanks to those of you who have posted some great posts on this site in the past.

Sean

 

[matara]

Hey there and welcome. Nice to see another Si being saved. I think given the prices of GTi's these are a bargain now. My son and I went through a similar journey last year through lockdown, and converted a 205 Si into a 205 Rallye clone. (https://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/i...205-rallye-replica-father-son-project.145235/). The dashboard plastics are a bit of a joke but we managed to get it looking semi-respectable and get the heater working. We didn't go as far as aircon since it had most of the system ripped out anyway. If you are thinking of Rallye arches, then we got our from Jorge at FRB in Portugal:- https://frbodystyling.com/produto/wheel-arches-peugeot-205-rally-type/ Perfect replica's and well packed and shipped.

 

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

2950, I got a much better car for $2500 3 years ago, thought I paid too much, virtually haven't touched it and is my daily drive. Prices are going up obviously.

 

[djvu205]

I think the days of cheap 205's are all but gone. Should be a fun project I'm doing something similar right now. If you buy a complete 306 donor car you can use the motor gearbox struts brakes, trailing arms and part the rest out. Im doing a similar project at the moment. Im pretty sure I have all the 205 parts to do a auto to manual conversion should you get stuck.

 

[schlitzaugen]

You can swap around the seat base between passenger and driver seats. They are a direct fit and will give you a "new" seat base for the driver. You do need to take it off the frame though.

I suggest you find a 405SRI engine, loom and ECU preferably off a driving car so you know how healthy it is. Swap that in, it's a straight bolt on upgrade that will give you enough power with none of the headaches of a transplant with a different engine. See if you want more power later.

A GTI underframe might give some handling improvement as well, GTI shocks are tricky to find and people say they're still the best.

 

[djvu205]

Also i wouldn't go grinding into the body deadener too soon unless your 100% sure its a bodgy repair. they can look like this from factory with a bit of a clean the body color is revealed in the under guard area on most if not all of the 205's ive owned.

 

[Lincolne]

Hi guys - thanks for the feedback.

Matara - I think I saw your project on the forum, it was one of the posts that helped convince me this would be a good idea. I agree on the wheel arches - it was one of the areas I was concerned about as original parts are unobtanium and likely to crack given their age so knowing someone who can supply quality 'fresh' versions is good to have on hand.

Schlitsaugen - that looks like great advice re the 405SRI. I assume you are talking about the XU10J2 engine ? Specs look almost as good as the XU10J4 so I'll definitely add the 405SRI to my list of possible donors. Do you know if there are any posts on peoples experience doing this? Also thanks re the tip for the seats. Your point on suspension is correct - a set of Bilstein B6's would be a nice alternative but I suspect I'll need to import something from UK/EU. Not sure where to source the under frame from (a GTI is an obvious source but they aren't easy to find in Tasmania)

djvu205 - thanks for the offer - I may call you later depending on what donor cars appear on Gumtree/Ebay/local sources

Fingers crossed something appears soon - in the meantime I'll try to shake as many issues out of the car I have so it does not end up just killing more of the back lawn.

Thanks,

Sean

 

[Lincolne]

Also i wouldn't go grinding into the body deadener too soon unless your 100% sure its a bodgy repair. they can look like this from factory with a bit of a clean the body color is revealed in the under guard area on most if not all of the 205's ive owned.

Yeah - but this is VERY clean and shiny - like someone painted it on last week - and absolutely no mud/dust/oil adhering to it. Contrasting that to the front of the wheel arch where it's to the usual accumulation of road grime it looks suspicious.

I'll try scrubbing both sites with parts cleaner and see if it's just a 'clean spot' that someone left behind. I'll also check the inside - hopefully the carpet and panels in the cabin don't put up too much of a fight

Anyway - off now to by coolant and a sump plug removal tool

Sean

 

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

You can swap around the seat base between passenger and driver seats. They are a direct fit and will give you a "new" seat base for the driver. You do need to take it off the frame though.

I suggest you find a 405SRI engine, loom and ECU preferably off a driving car so you know how healthy it is. Swap that in, it's a straight bolt on upgrade that will give you enough power with none of the headaches of a transplant with a different engine. See if you want more power later.

A GTI underframe might give some handling improvement as well, GTI shocks are tricky to find and people say they're still the best.

Two SRi engines, alloy DKZ and the iron block XU10. The XU10 won't fit a 205 due to the inlet manifold being too big. Also the XU10 has same power as the alloy one, only 89 kw.

 

[schlitzaugen]

No, I was talking about the alloy one, the XU9.

 

[Richard W]

An XU9 from an early 405 is the same motor fitted to the later GTIs in Australia, so if you can find one of those it should drop into the Si easily and give you the same performance as the last of the GTIs.

I assume that if you can get a late 205GTI engine wiring loom that would also help simplify the conversion. Manual conversion must be high on your wish list. No doubt someone here can tell us what version of the BE3 gearbox the 405 would have and whether you would just keep that.

Add some 306 front brakes, maybe a GTI subframe and GTI roll bars and rear torsion bars and you're away? I like my Bilstein B6s but lots of people seem happy with the B4s and they are pretty cheap.

 

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

An XU9 from an early 405 is the same motor fitted to the later GTIs in Australia, so if you can find one of those it should drop into the Si easily and give you the same performance as the last of the GTIs.

I assume that if you can get a late 205GTI engine wiring loom that would also help simplify the conversion. Manual conversion must be high on your wish list. No doubt someone here can tell us what version of the BE3 gearbox the 405 would have and whether you would just keep that.

Add some 306 front brakes, maybe a GTI subframe and GTI roll bars and rear torsion bars and you're away? I like my Bilstein B6s but lots of people seem happy with the B4s and they are pretty cheap.

DKZ was in the later S1 8 valves. The early ones had the semi downdraft port engine. These had great torque but low compression here in Aus. If you fit the flat top pistons and a better cam they go extremely well. Extremely rare these days.

 

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

An XU9 from an early 405 is the same motor fitted to the later GTIs in Australia, so if you can find one of those it should drop into the Si easily and give you the same performance as the last of the GTIs.

I assume that if you can get a late 205GTI engine wiring loom that would also help simplify the conversion. Manual conversion must be high on your wish list. No doubt someone here can tell us what version of the BE3 gearbox the 405 would have and whether you would just keep that.

Add some 306 front brakes, maybe a GTI subframe and GTI roll bars and rear torsion bars and you're away? I like my Bilstein B6s but lots of people seem happy with the B4s and they are pretty cheap.

B6s are about the same as original B4s nowhere near as good as the originals. If they aren't leaking leave them alone.

 

[PeterT]

An XU10J4RS is by far the easiest conversion. Beware of suggestions from members who have no idea. Graham has pointed out very clearly the issue with alloy 1.9L SRI engines.

Another option is to fit an 1.9L 88mm crank/rods, GTi manifold and GTi cam to your existing engine and upgrade the ECU. It retains the same engine number and removes registration issues.

 

[Lincolne]

Thanks guys - there's only so much you can pickup from Wikipedia and the Haynes workshop manual.

Definitely looking at a manual conversion.

Sourcing a 405 with one fitted may be a challenge - Peugeot's of that vintage are not particularly common in Tassie so I may need to start walking through wreckers yards (also not common any more in Tassie) or maybe just bite the bullet and see what I can buy from the mainland and have it shipped. Whatever engine and gearbox I managed to source I'm expecting to do a full rebuild. That's the main idea behind buying a budget Si and building it up - and I want something that does not have the previous owners reliability issues and don't want to pay for the issues.

Does anyone know a reliable source of engines (worth asking I guess)? It would be good to better understand the market so I can weigh up the relative costs and risks.

PeterT's suggestion is very interesting (especially rego, etc.). Currently the car has an XU5M3 (BDY) so unsure what else is needed (head?)

Again, Richard's post at https://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/i...6-xu10j4rs-conversion-guide-checklist.117605/ on the XU10J4RS conversion has been an inspiration so I just need to work out what I can lay my hands on.

A GTI front end setup is on the cards - subject to how long it takes to find the necessary pieces. I really don't want this to be a project that is perennially waiting for parts (mechanicals done before Christmas would be great) so may need to be a 'stage 2' task after the engine, transmission, suspension and brakes are sorted. I'm unsure how long it takes for such parts to turn up.

Re: suspension - whatever the Si currently has it's not worth keeping for much longer. At least one rear shock is leaking, and the ride (while fun) could be a bit firmer and probably lowered a bit. The top of the front wheel is 13cm below the outer lip of the guard, and its 40cm from the wheel centre to the top of the guard so it sits a bit like grandmas C2V.

Thanks everyone,

Sean

 

[Lincolne]

Day 9 - Basic maintenance begins

The car came with a pile of receipts - and it looks like servicing and maintenance may not have been kept up to date. A key quote:

"The temperature gauge fluctuates, on road test it settles when decelerating. Possible gauge problem"

I did not notice this - however the oil temperature sender at the rear of the sump appears to have been disconnected (no wire in sight) and the wire to the radiator sensor had been unplugged. Also, the lamp in the coolant temperature indicator does not light up when starting the car. This will need some more investigation and tracing to see what may or may not be missing/unplugged/??

Hopefully the weather stays dry and I can sort this out this week.

The oil was another matter. To cut things short, it was filthy, bitter and had a light odour of fuel. So cut to 'Plan B' and stick to changing the oil, and change it again after 100Km or so and replace the oil filter then (I know - I'm avoiding it but if you know where the filter is you'd understand why).

Changing the oil was new - first time I've done this on a French car and first time I've seen that kind of sump plug.

For those who are in a similar position to me, the plug is rounded and the only way to safely remove it is with an 8mm square driver (included in 3rd photo) the receipt lists as "AP DRAIN PLUG KEY 8mm SQUARE 3/8 DRV". You'd think these are reasonably common but no (I tried four different retailers without any luck until one pointed me to MWS). If you are near Hobart I can recommend "MWS Auto Tools" in Gormanston Rd Moonah - the guy was heading out back to grab one off the shelf before I finished explaining what I was after. Only $15 and problem solved (although his shop had some nice things).

For those of you with keen eyes - no, there's no washer on the sump plug. I'll be buying a new plug and washer as soon as practical.

Oil was filthy - so well overdue for a clean.

I'll read back through some of the posts on the site on wheels. Currently the Si has the original stock 205 Si alloys (5.00B13FHH28) and it irks me to spend money on new tyres for rims I intend to get rid of as soon as possible. Starting position is a set of 306 alloys (there has to be some with a wrecker somewhere now) with spacers on the rear, while I test my patience looking for some 205 GTI SL299 alloys. I can borrow a couple from someone I know who has a GTI to check clearances and see if a set of Rallye arches will be sufficient.

On costs to date, excluding some tools I needed I'm $137 into this and that includes stuff like 6 cans of brake cleaner, 10L of coolant and 10L of oil so I'm happy so far. Useful parts like fuel and air filters, sump plug and things more Peugeot specific may accelerate things

Again, thanks everyone for your advice and patience.

Sean

 

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

An XU10J4RS is by far the easiest conversion. Beware of suggestions from members who have no idea. Graham has pointed out very clearly the issue with alloy 1.9L SRI engines.

Another option is to fit an 1.9L 88mm crank/rods, GTi manifold and GTi cam to your existing engine and upgrade the ECU. It retains the same engine number and removes registration issues.

Issue was with the 2 litre due to the inlet manifold. DKZ should be OK. Fitting 1.9 crank and rods to your existing pistons will give a compression ratio of around 11 to 1, would need mapped ignition and even then probably won't stop the pinging. I have a set of new DKz pistons which would take compression to the normal 9.4. Also have a couple of Mi16 88mm cranks.

 

[PeterT]

An XU10J4RS is by far the easiest conversion..

I am a muppet. I meant XU10J4R, as fitted to 306, 406, Xantia etc. No modification of exhaust or inlet is required.

I run 12:1 on 98 with an aftermarket ecu. 11:1 is easy.

The Si head is identical to DKZ, D6B etc. Just the cam is different.

 

[djvu205]

I still think a 306 is your best bet. There are more of them around than 405's. Plus you can also use most of the drive train. Nothing other than motor and box can be used from a 405. In my case I bought a 306 xt and drove it home. Interior stunk and body was rough so took the brakes struts disc brake rear trailing arms motor and box and put into a si. I think your better to steer clear of putting any iron block motor into a 205 roadcar it kills the feel that your looking for that you mentioned above. maybe stroke the original motor and fit twin Webber's or bike carbs. I did this with my last car super easy and super fun. The si magneti marrelli management does a great job of ignition only. It has a factory map sensor and the ecu still thinks its injecting fuel with all the injection stuff removed and tape to loom. As an added bonus if you get the correct car you can cut down and repline the 21mm 306 ARB. Si are fitted with 16mm ARB from factory but torsion bars already same as gti at 19mm

 

[Lincolne]

Hi djvu205 (and others )

I'm starting to think that the most practical solution is to keep the existing XU5M3, but (as suggested by PeterT and others) basically stroke it out to a 1.9L. As you mentioned it avoids the weight of an iron block and keeps the original handling (and of course the engine number continues to match the details on the vehicle registration papers).

I'm currently looking ay any similar period Peugeot right now as there isn't much Peugeot available of use for sale down here. When the rain goes away I need to walk through a couple of local wreckers to see what they may have on hand. I want a rebuilt rear beam with disc brakes, and if I can get a donor vehicle with a suitable manual gearbox (BE3/5 ?) and clutch and shifter hardware as well I'll be happy.

Suggestions as to what kind of vehicle to chase down are helpful - but the usual online sources don't come up with much in Tasmania so its looking like a case of sit and wait for the moment.

You are right about the fuel injection. The pug currently has a rather basic injection setup that needs to be replaced:

I'm not across the options and costs for this yet (budget still fluid - the only thing I can see definitely is that the numbers seem to be climbing). Using twin webers or motorcycle carbies looks like a smart choice (what ECU do you use?)

The Mega Squirt 2 looks interesting (the manual has some good stuff) but as always keen for advice

Thanks,

Sean