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1998 XM V6 24V Exclusive:

wonkipop

Member
re thermostat for the ES9J4.

this is what i have - see photo.
@ mr. pugrambo. i take i must check the thermo slides through the seal included with thermo easily.
that these are the two things you are talking about.
@mr. armidillo - the gasket you mention. i cannot see where it is in the diagram from the service manual.
i take it perhaps there is a gasket or this is a gasket which is for the housing that must be removed to do the thermostat replacement.
such a gasket is not shown in the service manual diagrams.

xmthermo.jpg
1_XM.230-00-5 thermostat.jpg
 
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wonkipop

Member
regarding the swirl pot.
was done in 2018 by mikes regular radiator guy.
construction is copper and brass. painted in normal radiator paint as they do to make it look "fancy". just the way they do it.
its pretty straight up and no nonsense.
cost on invoice was $220.00 + GST. i'd have to check two things, one price is still the same a couple of years later and two he has the time to make a batch of these and wants to make a batch of these. won't get a chance to do that until next week at least.

alternatively you have mr. buttercup's offer to make a cooking pot as they say in hotrodding. looks like that would be pretty nice and no doubt super sano.

mike suggested the other alternative is the custom radiator guy i have yet to go visit for the 99 xm rad. he does all of his work in stainless. specialises in making very "neat" sano units. specialist custom man who does stuff for all the hot rodders and salt lake racers etc.
he might be the highest cost option i assume. but i'm doing one of his rads regardless.

re swirl pots.
attached is the schematic.
usually you need a swirl pot if the rad top up tank is somehow below the highest point in the coolant system.
i don't think that is the case in the ESJ engines but its a complex engine with fairly fancy heads.
the swirl pot is at the point or moment where the heater pipes head out to the heater matrix.
anyway there is a reason for it. the swirl pot in question uses the principle of filming the fluid on the surface of the pot to release the small air bubbles that can form in the system. as you can see the top connection and hose head off to the coolant expansion tank for venting and gassing. a lot of racing cars do use swirl tanks in their fuel and coolant systems, so i guess with this particular engine pug/cit/ren finally got to the point with the large complex heads that it was necessary in the cooling circuit. its a crappy little plastic part that serves a critical role.

swirlpot.jpg
 
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Armidillo

1000+ Posts
Sorry Mr 'pop - my terminology was confusing. 'Rambo & I were talking about the same thing - that seal (I had forgotten how substantial it was - clearly not a gasket).

Looks like you have a seal, so all is well. Although it's often frustrating when component parts are not listed separately in parts database (eg. bushes for steering ram), in this case it would be better if the seal was provided with the thermostat. Particularly puzzling that the thermostat is widely available from a number of different manufacturers, while the seal is hard to get (fortunately still available from PSA).
 

wonkipop

Member
ok mr. armidillo, thanks.


re swirl pot and realising its been flogged to death. but a minute detail occurs to me, which is in doing the cooking pot method you would need to be clean with the welding joint on its interior face of the pot. i am sure these things are meant to be smooth on the interior surface to make sure the fluid films and spins around that surface. its not just a bubbling pot, it is setting up a particular sort of fluid behaviour in there.
 
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wonkipop

Member
@ roger

then these guys should go with the buttercup offering as it will do the job properly/supports a member.
someone should send him an old plastic one so he has a solid reference.

@ robin. the pug one looks like it might be slightly different - mr. armidillo posted a pic. hard to know for sure. he had some luck getting one of those a few years back. you might be able to rustle up one from pug dealer.
 
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Armidillo

1000+ Posts
The difference is between the ES9J4 and next generation ES9J4S engine. Xantia V6s and D8 406s have the ES9J4 engine - same as the Xm - so should be no difference in their self-bleeding/swirl pot.

The different design fitted to the ES9J4S is still available. Presumably was used in early C5s as well as D9 406s - and perhaps early 407s and 607s?
 

wonkipop

Member
ok

----

by the way, i saw a bit of discussion in another thread about C6s and pickles auction a while back.
that car ended up across the road from the workshop i muck about with the xm at, it is with a mechanic who does our roadworthys.
it was hail damaged. fairly extensively. and written off. not sure how you go with cars that are written off as those kinds of insurance write offs. but the mechanic shop that has it does roadworthies and knows the system back to front to legit put them back on the road.
it was patched up and in part is cosmetically acceptable.

there is another C6 there as well that got rear ended and has been repaired. the hit up the backside was not as bad as it might have looked.
both cars have their faults and he is over them and wants to move them on.
i can give his details to anyone who feels they are not sufficiently insane and feels they might require a C6 lobotomy.
pm me and i can give you his name and number.

he called me over late last year because he knew i drove an xm and he did the roadworthy on it and the green one.
I was sort of half tempted but came to my senses.
 

pugrambo

Going slightly mad
Yes the seal/gasket is the same animal
You will have some patience tested as you wriggle the thermostat housing out and around to get it clear of the engine once it's unbolted
There is plenty (well in french terms) of room to get in and around this engine but you need to nearly make love to it to see where you are going and to alleviate lower back pain from leaning over far enough to get there
 

Armidillo

1000+ Posts
I'll take three please

C6s?
BTW - earlier in this thread, I made the outrageous claim that I actually prefer my 605 over the Xm for relaxed long distance cruising. As the only other person I know that owns both, I was hoping you might share your opinion :)
Cheers
Alec
 

pugrambo

Going slightly mad
C6s?
BTW - earlier in this thread, I made the outrageous claim that I actually prefer my 605 over the Xm for relaxed long distance cruising. As the only other person I know that owns both, I was hoping you might share your opinion :)
Cheers
Alec
The 605 is a more comfortable car but sadly the 406 beats them both
 

Armidillo

1000+ Posts
Heretic!!!! :eek:

My 406 (ES9J4S manual) now has Record shocks, 16" rims (from a 307) and Bridgestone RE003 tyres. It is absolutely my weapon of choice if I want get somewhere quickly, especially if the road is windy. Comfortable, and the seats are supportive, but doesn't smooth the road out like the 605 or the Xm.
 
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wonkipop

Member
when i need to get somewhere quick i've got an 02 clio RS 172. not hard core version. chairs = superb. beats the xm seats surprisingly.
Q car. looks harmless - no racer boy hoo hah. enforcement agencies don't look twice.
it shouldn't be as good as it is, but it is and its a mystery. keeping it to the end.

when i want torture i take out a 914 i've had for 30 + years. it does not have seats, just vinyl shapes. germans!
xm can corner near as flat as the 14, which is saying something.

but not wishing to upset the DSers. i have been in an NSU RO80. the seats and suspension rival the french "cloud".
+ its quiet at speed. it may be the only thing out there that once did take it up to the french.

what are you gentleman's views on 405 MI 16s.
a mates just got one, but i have yet to go in it.
 
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ajm212

Member
Returning to the degasser, it’s probably clear now, but there is nothing inside these: no baffles, vanes etc. Apart from the different heights of the inlet and outlet, I think their angles are more a function of their location in each engine rather than inducing swirling. Creative Inox (one of the French guys offering these in stainless steel) shows nearly a dozen degazeurs with inlet/outlets separated by angles ranging from 0° through 90° to 180°. For ES9J4 engines in different cars, the different angles of the originals look as if they have been created by sticking the same tops and bottoms together at the required angles.

Xantia007’s diagram is pretty accurate. Before I found it I took some measurements from mine as I had a fantasy that it might be possible to 3D print one. Our measurements were very close. If you haven’t seen his site, it’s worth a look. He is a wizard at octopussery and has a lot of other useful info.
 

wonkipop

Member
@ ajm212

you are on the money. its some kind of standard moulding adapted to configurations.
with some adaption to different input output pipe diams as picked up by buttercup and armidillo.

its more important that they are smooth inside. because they do have to swirl.
the fluid adheres to the surface, surface tension.
as noted the input angles are correct for particular engines and plumbing arrangements.
the main idea of them is the input is above the output pipe and it will swirl around the circle and the circle is smooth to make a swirl that sticks.

3d printing is everybody's hope, but it is not necessarilly an engineered product, ie able to cope with heat and stress.
3d printing can be just a kind of laminar layering of plastic like making mud pies.
my experience with 3d printing is it is not smooth and needs finishing afterward, particularly so with plastic.
refinishing of the interior of a thing like a swirl pot would be difficult unless you did it two part like the original part.
and did some finishing work and then glued the two pieces together. then you introduce the problem of bonding the two parts together.
3 D printing is good for things that used to be made by being die cast or moulded.
its getting better but...

alternatively there is 3D laser sintering. some refer to this as 3-D printing, but its not really printing.
you could form it out of metal powder as the full shape.
and get the smoother surface.
just have to be a non corrosive metal powder that is sintered.
its also a reasonably expensive piece of hardware.
a 3-D scanner would simplify programming the shape.

i think some manufacturers are beginning to offer older spare parts using this process.
porsche classic for instance have sourced some of the very old parts now on offer from small specialised suppliers with the hardware/software.

whatever buttercup is talking about.
thats the way to go in the here and now.
and i sort of hope for the future, because there is nothing quite like a zen master of welding.
 
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Buttercup

Well-known member
its more important that they are smooth inside. because they do have to swirl.
the fluid adheres to the surface, surface tension.
I think you'll find that the physics of the situation is nothing to do with surface tension.
The difference in density between coolant liquid and a gas (or coolant with fine bubbles in it), simply means that the heavier fluid goes to the outside of the swirl, while the gaseous component floats back in towards the centre.....

Thus, the inlet is mid level and tangential to create the cyclone. While the outlets are: for liquid low, and outside of the circle, and for gas high and central.

The faster the swirl rotation, the higher the G forces created, and the better the separation.
 

Exxemm2

New member
Thanks Armidillo at christmas I found a smear of LHM around the larger pressure pipe connection into the top of the pump. I wiped it clean and it is still clean of LHM so it is only a very slight weep from the top. I didnt think to look underneath and it is so tight in there so i didnt really try that hard. I have bought one of those led auto endoscopes that connects to your mobile and im hoping I can use it to get a close look at the alternator and the underside of the pump. I have ordered a pump rebuild kit from Pleiades and that should be on the way soon. What is your thinking about an owner taking on the removal and repair of the pump, alternator and accessory belt in their home garage?
 
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