1998 XM V6 24V Exclusive:

If you get the car up on wheel ramps so you can get a proper look from underneath, you'll soon work out if it's leaking oil. Aircon compressor sits below the alternator - if it's oily then it's pretty certain the alternator will be too. From above I can get my hand underneath the pump and wipe off any oil - can also wipe top of alternator

My alternator is still working, so I haven't had to try to get it out yet, but I believe we can do this job ourselves. I'm going to try it when I get all the bits I need. I want to do every possible job once I have the access.

My plan is to remove the nosecone and the radiator. Hopefully can suspend aircon condenser out of the way. Anything else? Anyway, with everything removed from the front it should make things possible. Other option is to remove engine/gearbox - Pugrambo would recommend this approach.

Jobs I am planning to do:

* Overhaul LHM pump. Apart from leaks, the pulley on mine wobbles. One of the bolt holes is stripped.
* Get alternator checked/repaired
* Replace accessory belt
* Repair or replace regulator (mine is leaking)
* Replace thermostat
* Remove auto trans heat exchanger, and install oil cooler (no official kit - yet to source parts).
* Dismantle headlights, polish everything (esp. plastic internal lenses), re-build headlights.
 
Buttercup said:
I think you'll find that the physics of the situation is nothing to do with surface tension.
The difference in density between coolant liquid and a gas (or coolant with fine bubbles in it), simply means that the heavier fluid goes to the outside of the swirl, while the gaseous component floats back in towards the centre.....

Thus, the inlet is mid level and tangential to create the cyclone. While the outlets are: for liquid low, and outside of the circle, and for gas high and central.

The faster the swirl rotation, the higher the G forces created, and the better the separation.
Click to expand...

i was commenting on the suggestion of making one of plastic possibly and printing it.
an interesting idea but you would need something similar to the 3-D laser sintering type machines than the more common and what is truly a 3-D printer. those kinds of lower cost older tech 3-d printers tend to produce laminar lay ups which are not smooth, not like metal is, (even cast metal). even building up a pure cylinder will tend to produce a series of laminar layers with sometimes large bumps at the layer intervals. i've done the odd bit with 3-D plastic printers in my work for 15 years or so - know what the desktop ones will do. there also the problem that those kinds of true printers have to work up off a flat surface that it lays the material down on first which would make the part that little bit harder to figure out, especially in regard to the inlet pipes. ie how to set it up to print. there are more exotic forms of devices that create the shape out of a container of powdered material. they are sort of generically referred to as printers, but they are not really. they are lazer sintering devices. few more $ involved. those kinds of machines could make a swirl pot and make it in one piece with a suitable internal external surface finish. they could make it out of plastic and they could make it out of metal. you would have to get the plastic right so that you ended up with a durable product. then there is the time it takes to make the 3-D model to program the lazer device with. its a lot quicker to do it your way buttercup. i'm sure a cast swirl pot (ie cast metal) would work fine, i may have confused matters with what i meant by smooth.

the term i used was surface adhesion in my original comment. surface tension in a fluid is something else? probably should not have said that, correct, in conjuction. i earlier said filming which is the correct word. it adheres and films. surface tension is usually the condition just prior to filming and adhesion that prevents the filming from happening.
a simple simulation would be take your garden hose, get a length of upvc sewer pipe, drill a hole in the side, insert hose and turn hose on. look inside. the sausage of water coming in under pressure flattens against the surface and adheres and then spirals down. same thing happens in a down pipe. happens big time in what is called a syphonic down pipe. the more water comes in, the faster it sticks and spins and goes out again. they work so well they can practically suck a roof dry when they spin right up. from what i have read its the flattening of the sausage or fluid flow tube of water (coolant) that makes it give up its bubbles. without introducing additional bubbles into the system. the hot rodders/racing guys seem to get into building ultra long swirl pots like long cylinders to really get it going (i think?). they basically look like downpipes on your house, more or less?

the swirl pot on the xm has a inlet at the top and an outlet at the bottom off the sides. *there is no midlevel inlet.* there could be in some swirl pots, but not any i have seen or the one in the xm. they seem to be using the full vertical dimension. there is a top end outlet that connects back to the expansion tank. i already have my swirl pot. its smooth like the original. so far the 24V piece of expensive hardware its attached to hasn't blown up so happy with that aspect. its working - for now?

i admit, i sweated the corners a bit in discussion with mechanic and maker. the original part is curved top and bottom. and i don't think its for convenience, but it might be about strength of plastic (stress at a sharp corner?) at that particular bit. it could be there so there is no corner there to make or break the adhesion and create splashing turbulence or something like that? was hard to know. but the more basic cylinder we made seems to work ok. the hot rodders build basic shape cylinders.

i think though that the lazer sintering might well be a way that some difficult to make parts into the future could be knocked out.
esp if you have a 3d scanning tool. then you can translate the original part into code by handholding the scanner and sweeping it all over it to create the 3 model effortlessly and feeding it into the printer/output machine. or perhaps even an x ray scanner to get interior contours. you no longer need the idea of an original mould.

i've seen footage where for instance porsche in their design studios, still work in traditional clay at full size as the primary medium (its not a computer model at the beginning), but then scan it with held held devices little different to a torch and from there proceed to lazer sintering to produce dummy plastic modelling parts and forward into panel pressings. but again its $ and not exactly desktop yet for the everyday budget.

food for thought.
 
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Armidillo said:
If you get the car up on wheel ramps so you can get a proper look from underneath, you'll soon work out if it's leaking oil. Aircon compressor sits below the alternator - if it's oily then it's pretty certain the alternator will be too. From above I can get my hand underneath the pump and wipe off any oil - can also wipe top of alternator

My alternator is still working, so I haven't had to try to get it out yet, but I believe we can do this job ourselves. I'm going to try it when I get all the bits I need. I want to do every possible job once I have the access.

My plan is to remove the nosecone and the radiator. Hopefully can suspend aircon condenser out of the way. Anything else? Anyway, with everything removed from the front it should make things possible. Other option is to remove engine/gearbox - Pugrambo would recommend this approach.

Jobs I am planning to do:

* Overhaul LHM pump. Apart from leaks, the pulley on mine wobbles. One of the bolt holes is stripped.
* Get alternator checked/repaired
* Replace accessory belt
* Repair or replace regulator (mine is leaking)
* Replace thermostat
* Remove auto trans heat exchanger, and install oil cooler (no official kit - yet to source parts).
* Dismantle headlights, polish everything (esp. plastic internal lenses), re-build headlights.
Click to expand...
good idea doing the headlights while you have them out.
will make a difference to them.
 
wonkipop said:
the term i used was surface adhesion in my original comment. surface tension in a fluid is something else? probably should not have said that, correct, in conjuction. i earlier said filming which is the correct word. it adheres and films. surface tension is usually the condition just prior to filming and adhesion that prevents the filming from happening.
a simple simulation would be take your garden hose, get a length of upvc sewer pipe, drill a hole in the side, insert hose and turn hose on. look inside. the sausage of water coming in under pressure flattens against the surface and adheres and then spirals down. same thing happens in a down pipe. happens big time in what is called a syphonic down pipe. the more water comes in, the faster it sticks and spins and goes out again. they work so well they can practically suck a roof dry when they spin right up. from what i have read its the flattening of the sausage or fluid flow tube of water (coolant) that makes it give up its bubbles. without introducing additional bubbles into the system. the hot rodders/racing guys seem to get into building ultra long swirl pots like long cylinders to really get it going (i think?). they basically look like downpipes on your house, more or less?

the swirl pot on the xm has a inlet at the top and an outlet at the bottom off the sides. *there is no midlevel inlet.*
Click to expand...
Gosh! ..... I'm very sorry of this appears rude...... however, I can't allow such misconceptions to gain traction.

I don't believe that any of the fluid dynamic characteristics that you describe have anything to do with the function of the swirl pot.
The pot is essentially full of coolant with sometimes some small bubbles trapped in it, or after draining/ refilling, larger bubbles.
There is no film, there is no surface, there is no downpipe. There is a swirling pot of coolant which will have different density when small bubbles are present.
The density difference, combined with the increased G forces created by the swirling action provide the fluid separation.
The inlet * IS * mid level when compared to the 2 outlets. Specially when you consider the resultant "gravitational" effect of the swirl. It is higher than half way of the pot static height, but if you add centrifugal force, it is closer to halfway of the resultant profile.

Whatever Hot-rodders do, there is frequently little science or design according to function.
It's all about image, emotion and bling.

The reason why the swirl pot has the proportions that it has, is because that is the best to achieve and maintain a swirl with relatively low fluid velocities. A sphere has the greatest volume per unit surface area, thus the incoming energy creates swirl encountering minimal friction with the container walls.

I am amused by the image of a downpipe "sucking" my roof dry!
Given that the drips and dribbles off the edges of the corrugated steel roof, fall in air, into the gutter, how could any such "suction" force be transmitted upward through the drips?

An interesting concept.
20210117_093116.jpg
 
forget it mate.
make swirl pots for the guys.
i'm not disputing you.

i'm happy with mine. any rad guy can knock one up for anyone if they need one in a pinch.
i'm happy not to chase up my man, be time out of my day and not here to cut your lunch.
sorry i started conversation on swirl pots.
withdraw all commentary.

i wouldn't be so hard on the hot rodders. there is a bunch of hot rodders up near castlemaine that have a pretty good heavy duty reduction gear starter motor product that is a bit of solid engineering. i considered one for a prv xm i used to own. the exhaust on the prv engine fries the standard motors. the hotrodders developed theirs as an answer to the problem, common to a lot of v engines and starter motor positioning. sometimes the hot rodder guys fix faults the original designers built in and got wrong? the hotrodders with the cooling expertise are the guys connected with the DLRA event out at lake gairdner. i can't remember their name off hand but i could look it up again. they are the guys i am thinking of getting an xm rad built by. they do a fair bit on swirl pots and cooling systems for race cars.
interesting guys.

a syphonic gutter and downpipe system won't be found on a vintage corrugated iron roof house.
but if you are interested look em up - there is tech info on them on the internet.
done a couple. developed for extensive metal deck roofs on large scale buildings.
they do a lot of them in brisbane. gutters are laid flat, no falls. downpipes built into sumps or the gutter is seen as one big sump to create the hydraulic pressure head and initiate the syphonic flow.
the downpipes are unusually small diameters. take something the size of a standard basketball gymnasium roof for instance.
one downpipe around 125mm diam or so is used for the entire roof. they require a big pit at the bottom to receive the flow and slow it down.
operate more or less like a fire hose when they get up to steam. the faster it rains, the faster it flows. they can also be used on membrane roofs which is what i meant by sucking the roof dry. on the membrane roofs they will do that - no break between the roofing and gutter/sump as there is on metal deck roofs.

real interest was in suggestion of 3-d printing them/other difficult parts.
could be done. need the right sintering machine or find someone with one and also a 3-D scanning device.
means you don't have to put any labor into building 3-d model of the part itself using modelling software.
 
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Armidillo said:
If you get the car up on wheel ramps so you can get a proper look from underneath, you'll soon work out if it's leaking oil. Aircon compressor sits below the alternator - if it's oily then it's pretty certain the alternator will be too. From above I can get my hand underneath the pump and wipe off any oil - can also wipe top of alternator

My alternator is still working, so I haven't had to try to get it out yet, but I believe we can do this job ourselves. I'm going to try it when I get all the bits I need. I want to do every possible job once I have the access.

My plan is to remove the nosecone and the radiator. Hopefully can suspend aircon condenser out of the way. Anything else? Anyway, with everything removed from the front it should make things possible. Other option is to remove engine/gearbox - Pugrambo would recommend this approach.

Jobs I am planning to do:

* Overhaul LHM pump. Apart from leaks, the pulley on mine wobbles. One of the bolt holes is stripped.
* Get alternator checked/repaired
* Replace accessory belt
* Repair or replace regulator (mine is leaking)
* Replace thermostat
* Remove auto trans heat exchanger, and install oil cooler (no official kit - yet to source parts).
* Dismantle headlights, polish everything (esp. plastic internal lenses), re-build headlights.
Click to expand...
Once you get the nose cone and bumper off the radiator out you can swing the condenser easily out of the way
This will give you access to everything at the 'front' of the engine
Should only take about 15-20mins to get far enough into it for this job
The alternator is easy to remove once you get the belt off, may as well get the starter done while you are that far in, you'll understand once you attack all the heatshields as to why i mention this
If you were doing timing belt as well then i'd do engine out, it makes it a 20 min job instead of much skin missing and filling a swear jar
 
forumnoreason said:
those drawings were made by eine Shermannn Wonki!
Click to expand...
.......and they are right. see locations of inlet and outlet at top and bottom of sides. the line running out of the centre of top is not an inlet.
it takes gas and vapour back to expansion tank.
what i said. i can't see any inlet at mid level location.

when it comes to parts i copy them.
 
Many thanks Pugrambo the timing belt was replaced by the last owner a couple years ago so I'm happy to go the nose off path this time and feel confident that I can do it myself. Apologies wonkipop for cutting across your wake we have two subjects running in the same thread. Im thinking it was me who started the second one I shall do penance.
 
For those interested, I have now gathered together all the materials to make some swirlpots as per the above discussion.
I found the 3 tube sizes in stainless steel, and suitably sized stainless half shells.
Intend to assemble them by silver brazing, rather than TIG, as it will be easier to jig the assembly, and will be a neater finish, specially on the thin walled tubes.
I'll post pics as soon as I have assembled the first one!
 
You horrible man! There'll be tears before bed-time 😭.

There's a red one of those visiting me this weekend - I wouldn't dare pinch it from it's 2-year old owner !

Still - all in the name of science...
 
Buttercup said:
We have the grandkids visiting this weekend, and one of them is now missing her drink bottle!

It's exactly the right dimensions!View attachment 129680
Click to expand...
that gets my approval as the basis of a swirl pot.
no potentially bumpy weld seam in the middle. proper.

i realise what kind of de gasser you were talking about buttercup.
i have one in my renault, its the big top up expansion tank up high in the engine bay.
like a tea pot. does the density difference thing because its big enough.

these little babies off the side of the engine are a bit different.
that one will will work.
 
Are you still there XMen? My search for a good alternator for my XM 3.0l V6 24v continues I tracked down a spare from a 1999 XM 3.0L V6 24v but it tested poorly. I was quoted $1265 for new Valeo 439470 gulp. Could anyone advise another car with equivalent alternator please? I was thinking the C5 is fairly common at the wreckers and if I can find one with the ES9J4 engine it might be worth a punt.
 
Exxemm2 said:
Are you still there XMen? My search for a good alternator for my XM 3.0l V6 24v continues I tracked down a spare from a 1999 XM 3.0L V6 24v but it tested poorly. I was quoted $1265 for new Valeo 439470 gulp. Could anyone advise another car with equivalent alternator please? I was thinking the C5 is fairly common at the wreckers and if I can find one with the ES9J4 engine it might be worth a punt.
Click to expand...
Don't forget the Peugeot variants that used the ES9J4 engines 406 V6 & 607
 
yet another fiscal challenge.
some of these bits are suddenly becoming very hard to locate.
renault is another place to look, they also deployed the engine.
its not that long ago in time.
but the hungry hounds have their hands out...just say no, and explore the possibilities.
 
There was discussion on this thread back in January about replacements, in stainless steel, for the degasser/swirl pots on the ES9J4 V6 engines in 406 and Xantia. A few of us indicated that we wanted to buy some of these. Has there been any progress on these becoming available?

Thanks & cheers, Robin
 
send me a pm and i can point you to my rad man who can and is capable of making you one.
he is a hot rodder too.
the one he made for me is going great.
otherwise i don't know.
 
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