1954 Traction 11BL Transmission Overhaul

[citroenthusiast]

Most of my washers had fairly pronounced ridges where the satellite gears wore into the washers.

To the extent I could get the anvil of the micrometer into the part where the gears were running, they all measured from 2.8 - 3.18 mm so according to my theory, I need washers that are about 3.5mm unless I replace all of the planet gears. Unfortunately, the thickest shims I can get locally are 3.15mm. I would order from CTA except they want $75 to ship $30 worth of shims....

My plan at this point is to install the 3.15 washers and take the measurements again so that if I have to order a second set, I can be certain they will be the correct thickness.

 

[gerrypro]

Once did up a diff by lapping down that lip 'till the surfaces were smooth and made up some hard bronze washers to take up the slack.
BTW you have the best version of traction diff to work with....... the one with thrust pads on the centre yoke and corresponding pads on the planet gear shafts!

 

[citroenthusiast]

Once did up a diff by lapping down that lip 'till the surfaces were smooth and made up some hard bronze washers to take up the slack.
BTW you have the best version of traction diff to work with....... the one with thrust pads on the centre yoke and corresponding pads on the planet gear shafts!

I can see doing that as a last resort if the parts are not available. Fortunately, most of the parts seem to be available, even if shipping is expensive. Thanks again for all of your sage advice. I hope to get this thing back together faster than Shane did.

 

[gerrypro]

Yes that was a last resort! I think you will easily get it done faster than Shane! Now as for doing the whole car My 11BL was under restoration for 46 years! Sometimes life gets in the way!

 

[DoubleChevron]

Yes that was a last resort! I think you will easily get it done faster than Shane! Now as for doing the whole car My 11BL was under restoration for 46 years! Sometimes life gets in the way!

Tell me about it. My father has asked me about a few DS pallas bits .... as I have mine pulled apart over in the back shed. I'll be damned if I can remember, it must be 25years ago I pulled it apart. He only pulled his apart ..... er.... 10years ? ago.

Imagine how easy life would be if you just put stuff straight back together I'm hoping to drag the DS21 out of the back corner of the shed this weekend so we can see whats going on.

I might put the blue ID19 back together this christmas.... No point leaving it in bits for 5years (until I loose everything and completely forget how they are assembled).

 

[citroenthusiast]

I was pulling Shane's leg just a bit. If you look at some of my photos you can see in the background that I am floor to ceiling in parts for SM DS and now some for the 11BL. Just the other day I was looking for a roll of fabric reinforced buna sheet I know I had. I eventually gave up and used some reinforced neoprene. Then just after I bought some more buna, I found the roll I had.... It was in the back of the 11BL. I had used it to fabricate the gasket/flap that seals the parking brake lever as it passes through the firewall and hadn't put the roll away.

 

[DoubleChevron]

I was pulling Shane's leg just a bit. If you look at some of my photos you can see in the background that I am floor to ceiling in parts for SM DS and now some for the 11BL. Just the other day I was looking for a roll of fabric reinforced buna sheet I know I had. I eventually gave up and used some reinforced neoprene. Then just after I bought some more buna, I found the roll I had.... It was in the back of the 11BL. I had used it to fabricate the gasket/flap that seals the parking brake lever as it passes through the firewall and hadn't put the roll away.

You guys are so lucky to have access to reasonably priced SMs! Seeing something like this makes me think I need to perform a DS engine conversion .....

cars like this don't exist in Australia!

 

[citroenthusiast]

I thought it would be helpful to show an exploded view of the pinon shaft before it was assembled on the bench. The various pieces are laid out in order starting with the roller bearing, the celeron washer, first gear, the ball thrust bearing and races, the locking collars, second gear, speedometer drive, third gear, the new angular contact front bearing and the pinion nut (multi-tab washer intentionally omitted).

Since the clearance between first gear and the roller bearing can be affected by the position of the roller bearing, I used a bearing separator in the press to make sure the roller bearing was fully seated against the bevel pinion.

As Gerry noted, the pinion shaft is much easier to assembly vertically. I assembled it on the bench with the good side of locking collars facing down, toward the bevel pinion. With the pinion nut just snug, I had about .3mm of clearance. I then held the bevel pinion in a vise (with brass jaws) and torqued the pinion nut to 100 ft-lbs.

With the assembly fully torqued, I was barely able to put a 0.1mm feeler gauge between the celeron washer and first gear. (This operation required me to remove my glasses and use a bright light to see the seam between the washer and the gear.) Thank goodness I never had any laser eye surgery to fix my myopia or I would never have had the close-up vision to do this.

Worth noting is the first time, when I put the locking collars in the wrong way around with the good side facing up towards second gear, the clearance went to zero and I could feel a slight drag on first gear when I tried to spin it on the pinion shaft, so it did make a difference. I believe I am actually ready to assemble the pinion shaft into the box now.

I believe the reverse gear is supposed to be in the bottom of the box before the pinion shaft goes back in.

(1) How does one keep all of the 6.35mm (a/k/a 1/4 inch) balls in place during the operation. Is there room to wire the thrust faces in place or should I just make a dummy shaft?

(2) Do I have to remove the roller bearing from the pinion shaft again? If so, how do I make sure it fully seats once it is in the box so that the clearance with first gear does not change?

(3) I noticed that both of the thrust washers that engage the synchro key have only two oil grooves. Do I need to procure a washer with 4 grooves for the second gear idler or will it be acceptable to use the 2 groove washer that came out of it? The parts manual seems to suggest they are interchangeable, showing the 507.272 and 500.527 in both positions.

 

[gerrypro]

I thought it would be helpful to show an exploded view of the pinon shaft before it was assembled on the bench. The various pieces are laid out in order starting with the roller bearing, the celeron washer, first gear, the ball thrust bearing and races, the locking collars, second gear, speedometer drive, third gear, the new angular contact front bearing and the pinion nut (multi-tab washer intentionally omitted).

View attachment 127506


Since the clearance between first gear and the roller bearing can be affected by the position of the roller bearing, I used a bearing separator in the press to make sure the roller bearing was fully seated against the bevel pinion.

View attachment 127507

As Gerry noted, the pinion shaft is much easier to assembly vertically. I assembled it on the bench with the good side of locking collars facing down, toward the bevel pinion. With the pinion nut just snug, I had about .3mm of clearance. I then held the bevel pinion in a vise (with brass jaws) and torqued the pinion nut to 100 ft-lbs.

View attachment 127509




With the assembly fully torqued, I was barely able to put a 0.1mm feeler gauge between the celeron washer and first gear. (This operation required me to remove my glasses and use a bright light to see the seam between the washer and the gear.) Thank goodness I never had any laser eye surgery to fix my myopia or I would never have had the close-up vision to do this.

View attachment 127508




Worth noting is the first time, when I put the locking collars in the wrong way around with the good side facing up towards second gear, the clearance went to zero and I could feel a slight drag on first gear when I tried to spin it on the pinion shaft, so it did make a difference. I believe I am actually ready to assemble the pinion shaft into the box now.

I believe the reverse gear is supposed to be in the bottom of the box before the pinion shaft goes back in.

(1) How does one keep all of the 6.35mm (a/k/a 1/4 inch) balls in place during the operation. Is there room to wire the thrust faces in place or should I just make a dummy shaft?

(2) Do I have to remove the roller bearing from the pinion shaft again? If so, how do I make sure it fully seats once it is in the box so that the clearance with first gear does not change?

(3) I noticed that both of the thrust washers that engage the synchro key have only two oil grooves. Do I need to procure a washer with 4 grooves for the second gear idler or will it be acceptable to use the 2 groove washer that came out of it? The parts manual seems to suggest they are interchangeable, showing the 507.272 and 500.527 in both positions.

Ans. 1, Keep the balls in place with MP grease.
Ans. 2, No, leave the roller bearing on the shaft as already installed.
Ans. 3, Perfectly acceptable. Make sure the oil grooves are orientated towards the thrust faces of the gears.
Also if you feel that the clearance of the celeron washer to the roller bearing is too tight you can reduce the thickness of the celeron washer.
This is going to be a beautiful gear box!

 

[citroenthusiast]

Installed the 3.10mm satellite gear washers and I am pretty happy with the degree of mesh. They are all within 0.1mm of full mesh.

Not having access to Gerry's cache of sun gear celeron washers, I resorted to Shane's method of measuring the bottom sun gear clearance using a dial indicator. With the bottom differential solidly held in the vise, I lifted the differential up and down. This gave me a pretty consistent 0.15mm backlash.

I confirmed this measurement by cutting some shims out of 0.1mm shim stock. With two shims (0.2mm) under the celeron washer, I had to tap the last planet gear shaft into place and I could only just turn the differential housing by hand. The current celeron washer is 1.95mm thick, so I will try to source a washer that is 2.2mm thick and sand it down to 2.1-2.15.

The upper sun gear celeron washer is 1.55mm thick and the clearance under the upper sun gear is about .1mm, so I will order the thinnest celeron washer available (1.8mm) and sand it to fit.

Meanwhile, the bushings for the second gear idler came in and they are indeed left and right handed. Learning from Shane's experience, I test fitted the bushings on the input shaft and to my pleasant surprise they fit, although they barely made it over the splines.

Hopefully, I will still be able to work them over the spines once they are pressed into the gear. I had to order some Loctite 648 so I won't be able to press the bushings into the gear until it arrives, probably tomorrow.

 

[gerrypro]

Perhaps you could use one of the old bushes to turn up a centre spacer as Shane did just to make sure that they do not work their way inwards? I am sure that Shane will outline his spacer making procedure!
Excellent result for the diff setting the ride heights of the satellite gears above/below the Planet gears are well within tolerance. As for the thin Celeron washer you wish to order could you not just sand down one of the existing washers until you achieve the correct thickness?

 

[citroenthusiast]

Perhaps you could use one of the old bushes to turn up a centre spacer as Shane did just to make sure that they do not work their way inwards? I am sure that Shane will outline his spacer making procedure!
Excellent result for the diff setting the ride heights of the satellite gears above/below the Planet gears are well within tolerance. As for the thin Celeron washer you wish to order could you not just sand down one of the existing washers until you achieve the correct thickness?

Not sure I want to go to the effort of making a center spacer if Loctite will work, especially since my bushing moved outward instead of inward. I researched the various Loctite compounds available and I am pretty sure the 648 will do the trick, especially if I make sure the surfaces are perfectly clean. Good point about the celeron washer. I can sand the 1.95 washer and turn it into the 1.65 so I only really need the one washer for the sun gears.

 

[citroenthusiast]

I observe that the second gear cluster already has a small lead-in chamfer to assist with pressing in the bushings. Instead of making a spacer and shortening the bushings to accommodate the spacer (so that the spacer is centered over the oil hole), why not simply enlarge the lead in chamfer a bit, then stake the bushings into the chamfer at a few locations? That would certainly prevent the bushings from moving inward and covering the oil hole. Loctite to keep them from moving outward, although outward motion will not cause a catastrophic loss of lubrication.

 

[citroenthusiast]

Hearing no objections, I went ahead an enlarged the lead-in chamfer on the gear cluster.

I then installed the bushings with Loctite 648 with the RH bushing at the dog end and the LH bushing at the gear end.

Not surprisingly, the gear cluster will no longer slide over the input shaft splines, so I will have to ream the bushings. The Loctite takes 24 hours to cure to 90% of full strength so this is as far as I am likely to go today.....

 

[citroenthusiast]

After allowing the Loctite to cure overnight, I staked the ends of the bushings into the chamfers.

I reamed the bushings so they would just barely slide over the splines and assembled the second gear cluster to the input shaft. To get the lock plunger to cooperate, I made a tool from a piece of 1/16 inch welding rod that I could wedge between the lock plunger and the inside surface of the gear cluster. Working with a screwdriver and the tool, I got the plunger fully depressed. Then I dropped the splined washer over the shaft and pushed it into position.

The second gear celoron washer must not get much abuse because the clearance was right at 0.06mm which is within spec. I then assembled the rest of the rear of the input shaft.

Then disaster struck. I just HAD to check to see if the syncro could be moved over the second gear dogs. Of course, without anything to stop it, the syncro overtraveled and the sycnchro balls flew out into the cavity between the dogs and the gear. That was bad enough. What was worse was the syncro was stuck on the second gear cluster because the synchro springs would not pass back over the dogs.

Eventually, I was able to make six little ramps out of 0.1mm shim stock so I could work the synchro back over the dogs, but I did manage to mangle one of the synchro springs in the process.

The spring has now been bent back into reasonable shape (after flying across the garage only once), but now I have to come up with an installation tool to get the synchro back together. I think a simple tapered cone will work even if the process is somewhat fiddly as compared with having the proper tool. The 3D printer is working on a plastic version as I am typing this. Stay tuned.....

 

[gerrypro]

Sorry about the synchro over-travel incident! It is one that I have never had the misfortune to experience. Like all talented engineers though you came up with a brilliant recovery strategy! Well done!
The bent welding rod tool works well. I have been doing it that way for years! Much easier than fiddling with small screw drivers.
There may be a demand for 3D printed synchro hub tools!

 

[DoubleChevron]

Sorry about the synchro over-travel incident! It is one that I have never had the misfortune to experience. Like all talented engineers though you came up with a brilliant recovery strategy! Well done!
The bent welding rod tool works well. I have been doing it that way for years! Much easier than fiddling with small screw drivers.
There may be a demand for 3D printed synchro hub tools!

Interesting. I found a feeler gauge was best where you used welding rod. I just picked the thinnest that would fit without bending (0.5mm from memory). How on earth did you find all the bearings once they were across the shed (I did that once with a CX gearbox ..... and ended up pulling apart another gearbox to steal its bearings).

 

[gerrypro]

Interesting. I found a feeler gauge was best where you used welding rod. I just picked the thinnest that would fit without bending (0.5mm from memory). How on earth did you find all the bearings once they were across the shed (I did that once with a CX gearbox ..... and ended up pulling apart another gearbox to steal its bearings).

I have tried it that way as well! The rod works best because you can keep the plunger dowel fully depressed as you drop the locking ring over the splines, and then just rotate the wire to remove it from behind the ring. The ring then pushes fully home!

 

[citroenthusiast]

Interesting. I found a feeler gauge was best where you used welding rod. I just picked the thinnest that would fit without bending (0.5mm from memory). How on earth did you find all the bearings once they were across the shed (I did that once with a CX gearbox ..... and ended up pulling apart another gearbox to steal its bearings).

The ball bearings were trapped in the cavity between the dogs and the gear so they were easy to shake out onto the work bench. Anyway, I have a bag full of 6.35mm bearing balls in my parts inventory. They are easy to source in the US. The spring flew across the shed because it jumped out of the needle nose pliers when I was trying to straighten it.

 

[citroenthusiast]

Sorry about the synchro over-travel incident! It is one that I have never had the misfortune to experience. Like all talented engineers though you came up with a brilliant recovery strategy! Well done!
The bent welding rod tool works well. I have been doing it that way for years! Much easier than fiddling with small screw drivers.
There may be a demand for 3D printed synchro hub tools!

Here is what my design looks like. The print time will be several hours so hopefully I can get one to work without too many iterations.