1954 Traction 11BL Transmission Overhaul

citroenthusiast

citroenthusiast

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Fellow Frogger
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I figured I should start my own thread rather than periodically hijacking Shane's transmission thread. As I mentioned in my brief hijack, the nut holding the pinion shaft assembly to the front bearing was so loose I could move it even before I bent down the tabs of the locking washer. It turns out the nut/dog at the end of the primary shaft also was only finger tight once I knocked down the locking washer tabs,

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The crown wheel has the appropriate inscriptions on it, so at least I know what the pinion depth should be.

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The output flanges have some pretty deep grooves in them and are pitted. Hopefully I can get a speedi sleeve to fit.

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The only thing that really concerns me is I cannot move the synchro to lock into either second or third gear. On the SM transmission I built, it took minimal finger strength. I wonder if the synchro is damaged?

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The dog teeth on second cluster look really good! They are often very worn! The synchro hub takes a firm effort to get it to lock over onto the dog teeth. Here is hoping that you got to the box in time to arrest any damage to the case hardening on the bevel pinion!
 
Continuing disassembly of the box, after noting Shane struggled with the snap rings holding the main shaft bearings in position, I was pleased to find that with the proper snap ring pliers, I was able to get the rings off without too much difficulty.

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The rest of the box came apart pretty much as Shane described, including dropping all of the balls from the reverse idler thrust bearings into the bottom of the box. I had some difficulty with the plunger that locks the second gear cluster splined washer in place until I realized that the plunger is depressed radially into the shaft rather than axially into the gear cluster. The manual is ambiguous regarding which way the plunger is depressed (however, it would have been clear had I remembered the parts diagram).

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The bushings on the second gear main shaft cluster have not moved, or at least have not moved as profoundly as on Shane's transmission. The oil hole is still visible. The cluster does rock a bit on the shaft and I can fit a .022 inch (.5mm) feeler gauge between the bushing and the spline. I can also see a distinct wear pattern at the outermost 10mm or so of the bushing.



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I suppose I will replace the bushings as a precaution unless .5mm of play is clearly acceptable. The manual seems to suggest using a boring bar rather than a reamer to bore the bushings so that the gears will run true on the shaft even if the bushing bore in the gear cluster itself is not true to the gear. When the manual says to rectify the OD of the gear using a mandrel sized to match the worn bushings are they suggesting that you take a skim cut off the gear itself?

The reverse idler and the third gear on the main shaft both have a bit of rock to them about .2 - .3mm clearance according to my calibrated hand. The bush inside the third gear shows some sign of scoring and/or burned oil.





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Again I will probably replace the bushes unless .3mm of clearance is acceptable.

I was able to get the synchro to move with my fingers a bit in each direction once it was off the shaft. Possibly it was just gummed up from non-use. I did not push it far enough to lock over in either direction, fearing the balls and ramps would go flying across the garage. Not having a false hub (tool MR 3025), I am not sure I want to disassemble it at all. Possibly I can just soak it in solvent and blow out with air? Alternatively, I have a 3D printer at my disposal. If I had a drawing of what tool MR3025 looked like I could possibly make one out of ABS.
 
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No sign of broken teeth or circulating metal. What a difference not to be trying patch together something that is damaged!

I'm pretty sure you will find you cannot get less slop than you currently have. If you put you micrometer on the splined shaft it will read slightly larger than the area the bush runs on ..... So to physically get the gears onto the shaft you will need to reem them out slightly larger than the unworn splined shaft.

I put a spacer between the two bushes to stop them closing up..... It should work ... in a dodgy doublechevron way :confused:

I didn't realise there was such a thing as snap ring pliers.... how do they lock into the edges of the snap ring ?
 
I wonder if the bushes could be removed and re-set with loctite without damaging them. I could certainly make a mandrel sized to fit.

The snap ring pliers have serrations on the working surfaces. The pointy ends of the snap rings get caught on the serrations and when you squeeze the handles the working surfaces of the pliers open up.
 
So I took some measurements using a set of telescoping gauges and a micrometer. Here is what I have:

Transmission measurements:

Part​
Bore Diameter​
Shaft Diameter​
Clearance​
2nd Gear on input shaft
1.1803”​
1.1773”​
0.003”​
3rd Gear on input shaft
1.1835”​
1.1785”​
0.005”​
Reverse Idler
0.7110”​
0.7048”​
0.006”​

In other words, the diametral clearance is from about .08mm to .16mm which seems fine. This presents a dilemma. In view of the known problem of the bush in the 2nd gear do I remove it and re-set it with loctite (risking damage) or do I leave well enough alone given that the bushing so far has not moved or at least has not moved more than about 1mm?
 
Gerry will be able to suggest what to do with that bush. Shine a bright light through the oil feed holes on all of the bushes, 3rd gear from memory didn't have two of the oil feed holes drilled in its bush (probably from the factory). I just carefully drilled them out.

This is sounding like its progressing to easily. I suggest throwing everything into some boxes .... mixing it up with other stuff them leaving it for about 5years once you have it fully apart :clown:
 
The output shaft seals are conveniently marked 36 x 83 x 12 so I know to get a couple of 36mm speedi sleeves to repair the output flanges. Folks in the UK can get the seal itself for less than 2 bob from Wych Bearing supply. At this point it looks like the overhaul is going to be not much more than cleaning up, adjusting clearances and reassembly, unless something goes wrong like the synchro coming apart in my hands...
 
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A few scuffs on the pinion, but no burn spots, missing chunks or anything else to suggest to my eye that the case hardening has been compromised.
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Suggest the pinion & crown wheel matching faces be abraded by your chosen method, very fine emery or similar. Remove the shine & allow the new oil to get in between these 2 parts. With both parts in hand, a local differential place that actually repairs things & are not parts changers may assist! John
 
gerrypro said:
If they have not moved leave them alone!
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So you believe they will not move some time in the future if they have not moved by now? I was thinking I was at the ounce of prevention point, but happy to leave well enough alone rather than having to machine a one-piece bushing. Just to confirm this looks right to you. The large bushing is proud of the gear by about 3mm.

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The small bushing is just below flush

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Sorry John that bush should be flush. It has already moved. The good news is that it will press out easily without damage. Do so, but please take note of the directions of the spiral groove and refit them in the same orientation. Loctite will hold them in place.
 
gerrypro said:
Sorry John that bush should be flush. It has already moved. The good news is that it will press out easily without damage. Do so, but please take note of the directions of the spiral groove and refit them in the same orientation. Loctite will hold them in place.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I will mark them to maintain the orientation. Now I just need to find a piece of steel to turn down a mandrel to remove them. I suppose the thing to do is to press them both out in the direction of the one that is already proud by 3mm?
 
Hmmm.... welll using a spacer like I did isn't going to stop the bush move outward like that! Loctite is a much better option.
 
citroenthusiast said:
Thanks, I will mark them to maintain the orientation. Now I just need to find a piece of steel to turn down a mandrel to remove them. I suppose the thing to do is to press them both out in the direction of the one that is already proud by 3mm?
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Do you have a socket there that will fit as a mandrel ? its probably all I did :)
 
I think I remember reading that but, alas, I don't have that particular socket set. By the way, thanks for mentioning the ball races in the reverse idler cluster, that way I was looking for them and knew what they were when they (naturally) fell out in the ultrasonic cleaner.
 
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