Haakon's backyard. These are simply non-issues.
EV alternatives
- Thread starter Steven King
- Start date
Mean while, hydrogen is being heavily invested in.
The past two years have seen skyrocketing interest in hydrogen fuel. According to the Hydrogen Council, more than 1040 large-scale hydrogen energy projects, equivalent to $320bn in direct investment through 2030, have been announced as of May 2023, an increase of 53 per cent since September 2022.
www.ft.com
And
“Since Davos in 2017, awareness of hydrogen’s potential has grown massively,” says Kanehana. “Today, the council is composed of nearly 140 leading multinationals from a wide range of industries with a total market capitalisation of $8.2tn.”
www.ft.com
The past two years have seen skyrocketing interest in hydrogen fuel. According to the Hydrogen Council, more than 1040 large-scale hydrogen energy projects, equivalent to $320bn in direct investment through 2030, have been announced as of May 2023, an increase of 53 per cent since September 2022.
Unleashing clean hydrogen power
www.ft.com
And
“Since Davos in 2017, awareness of hydrogen’s potential has grown massively,” says Kanehana. “Today, the council is composed of nearly 140 leading multinationals from a wide range of industries with a total market capitalisation of $8.2tn.”
What is needed for hydrogen to really take off?
Yoshinori Kanehana recalls a palpable sense of anticipation in the air during the inaugural meeting of the Hydrogen Council, which launched at the World Economic Forum in Davos in January 2017.
www.ft.com
how are they going to store an transport it though? And actually creating the stuff is very energy intensive (ie: we'd have to build a heap of coal powered power plants to generate the stuff).Mean while, hydrogen is being heavily invested in.
The past two years have seen skyrocketing interest in hydrogen fuel. According to the Hydrogen Council, more than 1040 large-scale hydrogen energy projects, equivalent to $320bn in direct investment through 2030, have been announced as of May 2023, an increase of 53 per cent since September 2022.
Unleashing clean hydrogen power
And
“Since Davos in 2017, awareness of hydrogen’s potential has grown massively,” says Kanehana. “Today, the council is composed of nearly 140 leading multinationals from a wide range of industries with a total market capitalisation of $8.2tn.”
What is needed for hydrogen to really take off?
Yoshinori Kanehana recalls a palpable sense of anticipation in the air during the inaugural meeting of the Hydrogen Council, which launched at the World Economic Forum in Davos in January 2017.
Not necessarily. Obviously it's not all in place right now but there is various methods and ways of generating hydrogen. Including the byproduct of dino juice, ahem, crude oil... But I think the point is that with larger scale renewable energy sources the hydrogen industry becomes viable.
Particularly in aviation, power generation, shipping and trucks - hydrogen could very much help reduce total emissions.
The storage and transportation? Well, there's a lot of strategies involving storing hydrogen as a solid which sound promising. And better liquificaton tech.
Hydrogen isn't the ONE solution, it's more likely one of many emissions reduction solutions.
it would be interesting if they found a way of transporting and storing it ... Larger scale is obvioulsy the issue, like most things. If we cared about the environment .... why isn't LPG as a fuel being pushed
We have been using it for decades ... and decades ... and decades. its safe, reliable and works with the existing technology.LPG requires significant amounts of energy to compress + liquify and has the same concerns as other fuels extracted from underground reservoirs - CO2 and fugitive emissions chiefly. It's attraction was mostly the relatively low cost as it was otherwise a waste product largely flared off at the refinery. CNG/LNG is a different proposition as it's not a byproduct in itself. It's largely methane and this has a fairly high GWP, which is why there is concern about fugitive emissions just as people worry about ruminating cattle, rotting biomass and thawing tundra.
Hard and rational account of the problem.Look at the size of that Li-Cycle plant, that is only basically "dismantling" the batteries.
All the shredded product has to be transported elsewhere for further processing.
The Li-Cycle plant is touted as the biggest in North America and has an annual capacity of 18,000 tons.
As we saw in the video, there was one car battery going up the conveyor and 1000s of small "household" type batteries.
So what is their EV battery capacity really? Let's be generous and say 50%, or 9000 tons.
There were 1.2 million EVs sold in the US in 2023.
So around 600,000 tons of EV batteries.
They need to to build 66 more "recycling" plants just like the Li-Cyle one, just to shred the batteries up to keep pace with current US EV sales.
Of course in the upcoming "Electric Utopia" where the entire 15 million or so cars sold every year in the USA are EVs?
They are going to need 1000 of these battery shredding plants, or 20 in every US state.
Of course that's not taking into account the increase in "other" dead batteries that these plants are going to have to deal with, home storage, E-bikes, E-scooters, electric mowers, chainsaws, brushcutters and whatever else they are slowly mandating to replace those "dirty" ICE engines.
Then they have to build all the plants to accept the shredded products to turn them into manufacturing grade raw materials.
Look as the size of the one they are building in NY at the end of the video, how many of these "further processing" facilities are going to be needed as well??
Of course all these millions of a tons of materials will have to be transported around the countryside.
"Don't worry about that", I hear you say, "they'll use electric trucks for that".
Cool, once they replace the 13 million "dirty diesel" trucks on US roads with battery ones they better built a few hundred more "recycling" plants to handle those batteries when they finally die as well.
What are all these recycling facilities going to run on, solar, windmills? Better start building recycling plants for the millions of EOL solar panels and windmills too.
The scale of what will be needed to provide "lean green" recycling for all these new energy products once they are f#cked is simply staggering.
Hole in the ground anyone???
I never understand the "what about the transport costs / what about the logistics costs" associated line of argument.
It always reads as if heavily refined oil is just naturally occurring on every street corner by magic and not carted around the world on giant boats, then giant trucks for thousands and thousands and thousands of km's.
It's as if the refining process happens also by magic, like there is no energy required in heavily refining this finite resource, nor that it requires us to dig giant big holes in the ground, or ocean, many cases terraforming those locations permanently, because it makes sence to just build a factory / supply chain / distrubution center on the point of this, eco-friendly oil.
And even if you had a zero carbon way of refining oil / making the logistics network carbon free, who's forgetting the C02 emissions from the consumption of this finite magic oil, that is heating the only viable planet in our known universe, to a point where it will be uncomfortable for continual human live.
And thats the distinction, the world doesnt care, the blue green algea doesnt care, they'll work out it, they have a life cycle / time frame that allows adaption, the generations after you might be pissed since you know, human and not aglea.
All so natural.
So we need to build more recycling plants and systems to support it.
Wow, that sounds like, totally annoying.
It always reads as if heavily refined oil is just naturally occurring on every street corner by magic and not carted around the world on giant boats, then giant trucks for thousands and thousands and thousands of km's.
It's as if the refining process happens also by magic, like there is no energy required in heavily refining this finite resource, nor that it requires us to dig giant big holes in the ground, or ocean, many cases terraforming those locations permanently, because it makes sence to just build a factory / supply chain / distrubution center on the point of this, eco-friendly oil.
And even if you had a zero carbon way of refining oil / making the logistics network carbon free, who's forgetting the C02 emissions from the consumption of this finite magic oil, that is heating the only viable planet in our known universe, to a point where it will be uncomfortable for continual human live.
And thats the distinction, the world doesnt care, the blue green algea doesnt care, they'll work out it, they have a life cycle / time frame that allows adaption, the generations after you might be pissed since you know, human and not aglea.
All so natural.
So we need to build more recycling plants and systems to support it.
Wow, that sounds like, totally annoying.
Who is going to pay for this? The lead up time to build this sort of infrastructure would be decades, and where? (NIMBYs are already screaming "not here"). I wouldn't want one near me either .... mining would be clean compared to this, with less risk of fires. What are we going to do with the tens of millions of batteries that exist... as in exist right now ... today, not in this dream like future. I don't understand this blind belief "it'll just be fine". Look at the bang up job we are doing with tires and plastics. Yay for us.
See what I mean by "brush it aside like its not an issue". An ICE vehicle is easily recycled ... almost indefinitely. These are an environmental travesty these batteries. How can the world possibly do anything other than bury them ? These fictional thousand of plants do not exist .... will never exist unless the governments around the world mandate them. Its to late for that though, because the original purchasers of the cars needed to pay upfront for the recycling costs, not the poor person who gets stuck with a useless car 5->10years down the track (that would only have bought it in the first place as its the cheapest hting that moves that money could buy).
Big toxic fires everywhere .... "Wow,that sounds like, totally annoying"
It does feel like it sometimes.
And similarly this argument feels like,
"Yeah but transitioning away from petrol and ICE is sooo haaaaaaard, why can't we just keep using them forever?. "
So, what a stalemate I suppose.
And similarly this argument feels like,
"Yeah but transitioning away from petrol and ICE is sooo haaaaaaard, why can't we just keep using them forever?. "
So, what a stalemate I suppose.
It has nothing to do with transisining from ICE. The problem is the cure is far, far, far worse than the virus in this case. If there was a car that did everything an ICE vehicle does created tomorrow, that was actually more friendly to the environment, it wouldn't need all the insanity and hand waving that is happening with electric cars around the world. People would just buy them.
Was the Model T forced on the population to replace the horse ? No people, rushed out and purchased them without any sort of mandates or pressure.
If a decent, sound technology was invented that wasn't just nonsense tomorrow..... the world would move to it. No enticement or regulations required.
Bowie, manufacture-ready processed Copper, Nickel, Lithium, Cobalt and so on do not magically appear at the factory door without significant amounts of energy expended and environmental disturbance. Yes, there is a substantial amount of energy in the oil exploration and processing steps. Volvo's study allowed 42g/km for well to tank emissions, excluding exploration and development. You may like to refer back to some previous discussion on the impact this has on vehicle emissions ... it's also not a factor in Albo and Bowzo's crazy vehicle emission standards plan, but that also completely ignores the emissions involved in building and charging an EV.
EV alternatives
Hmm of course that is not hand cranked ! It is just the controls for setting the charging. The special safety hat is in case the almighty strikes her from above for playing with the contraption. Jaahn I wondering when someone would pick that up. That image went around social media a couple of...
www.aussiefrogs.com
It's not whether he logistics are already there for the distribution of fossil fuels or not, but rather that all the the things that move that oil around are to be replaced as well.
Millions upon millions of acres of recycling plants, solar panels, wind turbines etc all manufactured with finite materials doesn't sound that "environmentally friendly" to me.
Western Australia is 653,700,000 acres that's also the same estimated area required for the amount of solar panels needed to power the planet.
That's the power needed before we build the 1000s probably tens of 1000s of recycling plants needed worldwide to cater for all this stuff at EOL.
I presume all these recycling plants will be sitting on a sea of CO2 friendly concrete. and built from CO2 friendly steel and emitting no CO2 during the recycling process.
The world is f#cked because everyone is obsessed with technology.
Want to save the planet, stop everyone from buying new shit when they don't really need it.
I'll keep driving my 70 year old Austin every day, knowing I could never do as much damage to the planet with it, as I would if I bought a new EV, an array of solar panels and a storage battery, so that I can charge it overnight "for free".
I caught the train into the city last week. It was efficient and I relaxed reading my book instead of watching drivers do stupid things and sitting in traffic breathing in exhaust fumes.
Thanks for all the Fish indeed! However, worrying about using finite resources and pollution on a planet marked for summary demolition to allow for a hyperspace bypass seems rather pointless.
BTW: I must say, this conversation is really refreshing. Its great to see no name calling or slander. People should be allowed to have differing opinions without being screamed down.
It would be an excellent read if anyone has found a high level overview on how these batteries are actually recycled (no matter how good/bad it is).
It would be an excellent read if anyone has found a high level overview on how these batteries are actually recycled (no matter how good/bad it is).
That's part of the problem, there's plenty of those "fluff" videos getting around making it seem like lithium batteries can just get fed into machines and pixie dust comes out the other side.
That black mass in particular is dirty business to separate into its individual elements.
Current processes are dissolve it in vats of toxic chemicals, or burn the shit out of it, and neither process has a 100% recovery rate.
There is a reactor process "under development" that is claimed to have a 100% recovery rate for the lithium content, but as the reactor name suggests it consumes vast amounts of energy doing so.
The algorithms make it very difficult to find real life "dirty" recycling processes under way, usually everything is clean and shiny with barely a worker to be seen
I saw a Chinese video about 2 years ago where a lady was in the process of "recycling" an EV battery in a large factory. The battery cells were exposed but were all bonded into the housing with resin.
She was dressed in a hazmat suit with a ventilation hose running up to the ceiling.
She was basically pointing a flamethrower that would have looked at home on Iwo Jima in WW2, at the top of the battery and incinerating all the resin.
I like to think the flame was powered by dolphin flatulence so I can sleep at night, but I still have this niggling suspicion that I might be kidding myself.
That black mass in particular is dirty business to separate into its individual elements.
Current processes are dissolve it in vats of toxic chemicals, or burn the shit out of it, and neither process has a 100% recovery rate.
There is a reactor process "under development" that is claimed to have a 100% recovery rate for the lithium content, but as the reactor name suggests it consumes vast amounts of energy doing so.
The algorithms make it very difficult to find real life "dirty" recycling processes under way, usually everything is clean and shiny with barely a worker to be seen
I saw a Chinese video about 2 years ago where a lady was in the process of "recycling" an EV battery in a large factory. The battery cells were exposed but were all bonded into the housing with resin.
She was dressed in a hazmat suit with a ventilation hose running up to the ceiling.
She was basically pointing a flamethrower that would have looked at home on Iwo Jima in WW2, at the top of the battery and incinerating all the resin.
I like to think the flame was powered by dolphin flatulence so I can sleep at night, but I still have this niggling suspicion that I might be kidding myself.
I'll keep driving my 70 year old Austin every day ....
Worst case, you could run it via a wood-gas generator, alcohol or for more power perhaps methane captured from your household waste digester or town gas and a bag on the roof.
That's part of the problem, there's plenty of those "fluff" videos getting around making it seem like lithium batteries can just get fed into machines and pixie dust comes out the other side.
That black mass in particular is dirty business to separate into its individual elements.
Current processes are dissolve it in vats of toxic chemicals, or burn the shit out of it, and neither process has a 100% recovery rate.
There is a reactor process "under development" that is claimed to have a 100% recovery rate for the lithium content, but as the reactor name suggests it consumes vast amounts of energy doing so.
The algorithms make it very difficult to find real life "dirty" recycling processes under way, usually everything is clean and shiny with barely a worker to be seen
I saw a Chinese video about 2 years ago where a lady was in the process of "recycling" an EV battery in a large factory. The battery cells were exposed but were all bonded into the housing with resin.
She was dressed in a hazmat suit with a ventilation hose running up to the ceiling.
She was basically pointing a flamethrower that would have looked at home on Iwo Jima in WW2, at the top of the battery and incinerating all the resin.
I like to think the flame was powered by dolphin flatulence so I can sleep at night, but I still have this niggling suspicion that I might be kidding myself.
Black, dirty, toxic, consuming vast amounts of energy, you are also identifying the petrol / coal / lpg extraction process.
This is what I can't understand. These processes are already terrible, and you are left with a product that when burnt, is also terrible.
Or, we have to deploy new manufacturing, that although the process will also be black, dirty, toxic and terrible, the output is not. Wind / Solar powered, clean renewable fuel sources. Even if it's coal powered electricity, that's still cleaner then refining, manufacturing, shipping and distributing petrol to be burnt.
Yes the manufacturing of the green solution will be shit. And? Just stuff it altogether?