EV alternatives

[Steven King]

given how poisonous this subject for us i thought about posting in the cars for sale - i just want it more widely read rather than discussed, if that is to degenerate into something requiring moderation ...

I love electric vehicles – and was an early adopter. But increasingly I feel duped | Rowan Atkinson

Sadly, keeping your old petrol car may be better than buying an EV, says actor Rowan Atkinson

www.theguardian.com

accordingly, i will be quick to delete this if it proves at all contentious

 

[Greenpeace]

It seems Rowan has recapped a lot that has already been said on here.
Based on current pricing for both the vehicle types and fuels/electricity currently on sale in Aus: "to save money" and "to reduce my carbon footprint" simply do not hold water, (when reasoning why one purchased a new BEV).
"Because it goes fast", "because it looks cool" and "because it has lots of gadgets" are perfectly admissible.
The MG ZS is the easiest to do the sums on, simply because you can buy the same car as an ICE and also as a BEV.
It removes the usual arguments introduced about one (usually the EV) being "a bigger car" or "a more upmarket car" or "the latest design".
I'm not anti-BEV by any stretch.
Once they make financial sense I might even buy one.

 

[David S]

An added factor for Australians is the FBT exemption that applies for EVs now, but not for ICE cars. It can make quite a difference, particularly if business use if very low.
Purely on the basis of the embodied energy and emissions of any new car, the best action is to make the old car last longer and walk more.

 

[DoubleChevron]

The cars he mentions in that article are not even close. You could make the best hydrogen motor in the world ... But how do we store, transport and create the hydrogen in any sort of efficient manner ........... Electric cars are viable transport, where as the other options he mentions really aren't close yet.

I rekcon all of the positive claims ... and negative claims about electric cars ... are probably all right ... in there own way. Some with ICE cars.

You pay your money and drive what you like for now. I ignore all electrical mandates governments and councils say they will mandate simply because I'm anti-stupidity. Everything nonsense that is being waved as a banner to win votes right now will be rolled back or watered down to the point of being worthless by the time the implementation date arrives. Eg: "Electric cars only by 2030" and other stupid claims.

 

[Steven King]

Which Saint is supposed to have supplicated “ … lord make me pure, but not yet …’ ? If carburetors could run an ersatz witch’s brew, good for us.
Of course Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt re EV does benefit the powers-that-be, but like lobbyists the lifecycle of ICE is transparent: BEVs component’s provenance and half-life still seem less so.

 

[DoubleChevron]

Which Saint is supposed to have supplicated “ … lord make me pure, but not yet …’ ? If carburetors could run an ersatz witch’s brew, good for us.
Of course Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt re EV does benefit the powers-that-be, but like lobbyists the lifecycle of ICE is transparent: BEVs component’s provenance and half-life still seem less so.

In theory, with so few moving parts. And electric car should last many times longer than an ICE vehicle. Sadly I think most will just get thrown away onto the junk pile when the batteries die ( ~ 7years ? ). After all, how long do you get from the your phone, laptop, tool batteries (etc). they are the same type of battery.

What value does a 7 year old tesla for example have, that needs a $17,000 battery replacement.

I reckon electric cars will become an environmental catastrophe. What on earth do we do with these cars when there batteries die? You have a power pack that needs to be kept in a safe environment. Imagine a battery dump going up in flames if one of them combusts.... you could have a dump/storage area with thousands of batteries in it ... If one goes up like a stick of dynamite, the rest will follow. There is endless talk about them being recycled. But I bet its not happening anywhere in the world due to cost and complexity ... not to mention safety and toxicity.

The next 20years of motoring sure will be interesting. We will solve these issues without doubt. I just wonder how!

I don't really see a valid alternative to electric/ICE.... The big change will come if a battery technology gets invented that doesn't have the environmental and cost overheads of the current batteries. Its a hell of a task, you need long life, large storage capacity, fast recharging, safety (in capitals) with no chance of melting down or fire. and ease of recycling once the lifespan of the battery is up.

Battery technology will probably drive the future more than anything else!

 

[Whippet]

Hi.


An interesting read about RA thoughts and remarks about BEV. I agree with a lot of his comments on embedded energy, not being fully accounted for. But I won't comment on the source of energy and propulsion systems for vehicles as per request in post #1.

I do think the corporate world contributes to the churn of motor vehicles.

• Warranty periods, there is a reluctance to take any risk of something expensive failing both for the repair cost on the business and also the provision of a replacement vehicle while repairs are underway. Accountants love certainty.
• Vehicles can represent status, and most people don't want to be driving an "older" model, this also drives early upgrading.
• New models with new features are more desirable, and often make earlier models redundant.

I understand that corporate vehicle fleets often form the basis of good second hand vehicle market.

I think William Shakespeare said something similar to: "Fashion weareth out more cloth than does the man". This statement applies to many things in our consumer western society. Vehicles are now similar to Fast Fashion, and many other low cost products that are designed to be replaced and not kept or repaired, toasters, white goods, furniture, PC's etc. The whole western world has large corporations and other business that are all based on sales and churn to obtain revenue and hopefully profits. Then marketing via a whole host of advertising and other lifestyle shows that create dissatisfaction for "old" things and a desire for new stuff.

Populations are just dumb animals that are reduced to consumers forking over their hard earned cash, often to keep up with the Jones, others to just keep their heads above water.

It can also be difficult to keep products for longer periods of time, as bespoke parts are often no longer available or have long lead-times for fulfilment. As vehicles peculate down to the lower socio economic strata of our society, it is them that are often faced with funding repairs for difficult to find parts, with fewer skilled tradespeople to perform the work.

So what to do? Maybe for vehicles making it more difficult or financially expensive to change over frequently??? Maybe have some sort of minimum ownership period? I suspect there will be much lobbing by vested lobbyists to counter any good ideas. Governments need to be elected again for the next terms, can't spook the horses.

Cheers.

 

[Whippet]

Hi.

Another similar article as posted in #1 above, but with additional discussions about the source and production of steel and lithium batteries, and the carbon used in the production. It seems that there are different suppliers with very different carbon footprints.

Source: The Age, business section, 8 June 2023.

Cheers.

 

[Greenpeace]

Interesting how highly regarded Rowen Atkinson's opinion on this subject is. I've seen this article brought up several times on online motoring shows just in the past few days.

On another note, although buried in the state budget, Victoria is ceasing the $3000 EV subsidy at the end of this month. When asked, they cited the reason as being "lower than expected uptake"?
I wonder how many people had they predicted would "jump at the offer" compared to how many that actually did?

 

[DoubleChevron]

Interesting how highly regarded Rowen Atkinson's opinion on this subject is. I've seen this article brought up several times on online motoring shows just in the past few days.

On another note, although buried in the state budget, Victoria is ceasing the $3000 EV subsidy at the end of this month. When asked, they cited the reason as being "lower than expected uptake"?
I wonder how many people had they predicted would "jump at the offer" compared to how many that actually did?

They are still far to expensive. $3k doesn't even come close to the cost over an ICE vehicle. You are paying nearly twice as much as an equivalent ICE vehicle for something that isn't anywhere near as usable for its designed task without seriously planning up front.

 

[Greenpeace]

They are still far to expensive. $3k doesn't even come close to the cost over an ICE vehicle. You are paying nearly twice as much as an equivalent ICE vehicle for something that isn't anywhere near as usable for its designed task without seriously planning up front.

Oh I realise that.

It was the Victorian government's reasoning that they were stopping the subsidies basically because they hadn't been giving away as much money as they thought they were going to?

Wouldn't one think a rational reason to remove the subsidy would be "way more people are buying electric cars than we ever thought would, and the the subsidy money is drying up"?

 

[Haakon]

Atkinson is sadly full of shit on this one… I always look to actors for industrial policy advice

Fact check: why Rowan Atkinson is wrong about electric vehicles

Last week we ran a piece by Rowan Atkinson casting doubt on the environmental benefits of electric vehicles. Here Simon Evans of Carbon Brief offers his response

www.theguardian.com

 

[Haakon]

Interesting how highly regarded Rowen Atkinson's opinion on this subject is. I've seen this article brought up several times on online motoring shows just in the past few days.

On another note, although buried in the state budget, Victoria is ceasing the $3000 EV subsidy at the end of this month. When asked, they cited the reason as being "lower than expected uptake"?
I wonder how many people had they predicted would "jump at the offer" compared to how many that actually did?

His piece is not even remotely highly regarded by anyone who knows about carbon accounting… It’s poorly thought out, ignorant on many points and regurgitates oil industry talking points.

 

[Greenpeace]

His piece is not even remotely highly regarded by anyone who knows about carbon accounting… It’s poorly thought out, ignorant on many points and regurgitates oil industry talking points.

Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean they can't be highly regarded.
Simon Evans makes a living out of telling everyone from the House of Commons down, that "they've got it wrong", why should Rowan miss out.
Simon apparently doesn't want small amounts of hydrogen to be burnt in "big bad ICE cars" yet in this interview he's keen for copious amounts to be burnt in gas turbines. To make electricity to charge EVs I suppose?

 

[Haakon]

Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean they can't be highly regarded.
Simon Evans makes a living out of telling everyone from the House of Commons down, that "they've got it wrong", why should Rowan miss out.
Simon apparently doesn't want small amounts of hydrogen to be burnt in "big bad ICE cars" yet in this interview he's keen for copious amounts to be burnt in gas turbines. To make electricity to charge EVs I suppose?

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I wasn’t using that article as the basis for my opinion of the article, was just easier than typing it all out myself…

Sure, he can be thought of highly - doesn’t stop him being wrong though. Which he is. Very wrong…

The fact you think there is a contradiction in not using H2 in ICE and using it in turbines for power generation shows you don’t understand the complexities. And no, I cannot be arsed explaining it all, google it.

 

[Greenpeace]

I wasn’t using that article as the basis for my opinion of the article, was just easier than typing it all out myself…

Sure, he can be thought of highly - doesn’t stop him being wrong though. Which he is. Very wrong…

The fact you think there is a contradiction in not using H2 in ICE and using it in turbines for power generation shows you don’t understand the complexities. And no, I cannot be arsed explaining it all, google it.

I have, the ppm of Nox emitted by the best performers in both methods of burning hydrogen should raise questions in itself.
When someone presents a chart showing how EVs are carbon neutral after 2 years and in the fine print it says "Nissan Leaf" like (your fact checker) Simon Evans did, speaks volumes in itself. Why didn't he pick a 5 ton EV Hummer or a long range F150 Lightning? He assertions that EVs were far cheaper to run than ICE vehicles in the UK are probably based on the same Nissan Leaf beng trickle charged on off peak at home. I'm sure someone living in a unit that has to rely on fast chargers or one of the £1 per kW mobile chargers would disagree.
Anyway I guess the problem with Google is if you only ever type in "why EVs are awesome and the only way to save the planet" in the search bar that's all you'll ever read.
Do you also disagree with Atkinson's opinion that continuing to drive your already existing ICE car is more environmentally sound than scrapping it and buying a new (most likely Chinese made) BEV?

 

[DoubleChevron]

I have, the ppm of Nox emitted by the best performers in both methods of burning hydrogen should raise questions in itself.
When someone presents a chart showing how EVs are carbon neutral after 2 years and in the fine print it says "Nissan Leaf" like (your fact checker) Simon Evans did, speaks volumes in itself. Why didn't he pick a 5 ton EV Hummer or a long range F150 Lightning? He assertions that EVs were far cheaper to run than ICE vehicles in the UK are probably based on the same Nissan Leaf beng trickle charged on off peak at home. I'm sure someone living in a unit that has to rely on fast chargers or one of the £1 per kW mobile chargers would disagree.
Anyway I guess the problem with Google is if you only ever type in "why EVs are awesome and the only way to save the planet" in the search bar that's all you'll ever read.
Do you also disagree with Atkinson's opinion that continuing to drive your already existing ICE car is more environmentally sound than scrapping it and buying a new (most likely Chinese made) BEV?

With electric cars ... I think both opinions, both for and against are factual in there own rights. There is negative views out there. They wont get traction anywhere though as the media hysteria is "everyone must go electric".

EVs Are The Yugo Of The 21st Century

What do today’s $60,000 EVs and the ultra-cheap 1980s import from communist Yugoslavia have in common?

issuesinsights.com

It’s Time To Admit It: EVs Are EVIL

It’s time for EV owners and manufacturers to answer for the environmental and human rights crimes they are bankrolling.

issuesinsights.com

These are overboard anti-electric ( a bit ) in the way most articles overboard pro-electric are. but are no less factual than the pro-car articles that I can see.

Until there is a new battery technology, they will just stay an oddity the people buy to try and prove they are "green".... they will likely only do it once though as the thing will drive them nuts with range anxiety and charging anxiety ....

I think opinions will massively change if these things start needing batteries at the 5-7 year mark

seeya,
Shane L.

 

[Haakon]

I have, the ppm of Nox emitted by the best performers in both methods of burning hydrogen should raise questions in itself.
When someone presents a chart showing how EVs are carbon neutral after 2 years and in the fine print it says "Nissan Leaf" like (your fact checker) Simon Evans did, speaks volumes in itself. Why didn't he pick a 5 ton EV Hummer or a long range F150 Lightning? He assertions that EVs were far cheaper to run than ICE vehicles in the UK are probably based on the same Nissan Leaf beng trickle charged on off peak at home. I'm sure someone living in a unit that has to rely on fast chargers or one of the £1 per kW mobile chargers would disagree.
Anyway I guess the problem with Google is if you only ever type in "why EVs are awesome and the only way to save the planet" in the search bar that's all you'll ever read.
Do you also disagree with Atkinson's opinion that continuing to drive your already existing ICE car is more environmentally sound than scrapping it and buying a new (most likely Chinese made) BEV?

There are no rules for what’s always cheaper or lower “footprint” etc, it’s a spectrum that includes a lot of “ifs”. On average and on the whole EVs are far better but there will always be edge cases.

In most cases, scrapping an old ICE and replacing it with an EV is better if you intend to drive that old ICE for a more than a few years.

Burning H2 in turbines is a whole different set of technical and economic issues to using it in ICE, but yes NOx is still there. Batteries and grid improvements are still better options. But NOx controls on a power station are far more effective than a thousand ICE.

 

[Haakon]

And Chinese made is bit weird. China is one of the best countries for renewables powered industries.

 

[DoubleChevron]

I'm not looking at this from an environment view... rather an "anti-stupidity" view. They have been chatting about this on the land rover forum too. (there is members there that have electric converted land rovers .... so not anti-electric).

A rellie of mine lives in wonderland (Switzerland) and his Lexus Hybrid started losing power and took longer to charge up after about 6 years, from my fading memory. Then at 7 years he was told he'd need a new battery pack soon. Got quoted $US8K which frightened the pants off him as he hates spending any of his loads of money which he counts in his sleep....

He reckoned the vehicle was faultless apart from that and much better than the 'His and Hers' Rangies him and his dearly beloved drove before retirement.
So they went back to a diesel Landie.... a Disco Sport and they're quite happy with that.

This is what I think will happen with most that buy an electric vehicle. The next issue is insurance companies don't want to touch them, accident repair businesses don't want to touch them... wreckers don't want to touch them. They are going to be some exotic, hard to get rid of environmental nightmares when there batteries die.

Until there is a new battery technology... electric cars just will not be wanted by most once they have owned one I imagine .... and its cost them an arm and a leg in depreciation and disposal/insurance costs.