starter battery solenoid on DS23IE.....Hotrodelectric, where are youuuuuu!!!!!!!!!

Aw.... come on Rod,
Of course I connected it to the battery. I was actually now considering - under your expert guidance- changing my name to harrisson_electric :rolleyes:

Hotrodelectric said:
Yah- touching that wire to ground should get some sort of reaction, even if it is just the solenoid itself actuating. Just touch it briefly to see if you get the characteristic 'clonk'.

The solenoid you have installed right now- is that the new one? Even dumber question- you do have it mounted to the battery?
Click to expand...
 
harrisson_citroen said:
Aw.... come on Rod,
Of course I connected it to the battery. I was actually now considering - under your expert guidance- changing my name to harrisson_electric :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Sorry Phllipe- I had to ask. Hard to see that stuff from thousands of miles away. :clown:

Much more seriously- Is the solenoid the new one, and did you have any success touching the start wire direct to ground?

If you are using the old solenoid, replace it, and insulate the starter cable end from shorting to ground, then test I think part of us running in circles is the solder joints on the old solenoid have finally given up. If that is the new solenoid, some testing is in order. Even made in China, it shouldn't have given up already.

For a while there I thought your middle name was Indy. :cheers:
 
Hey Hotrod,

It's the new solenoid, and remember I installed it when I got it - on the battery positive - and it works fine ie: when I push the button under it , it starts the car no problems. So everything is fine there. The problem arises when I connect a cable to the starter wire of the solenoid then install a switch and connect the other end of the switch to ground. Pressing the button (on the switch) then produces nothing except a "click" and that's it.
Plot thickens.....:confused:
Hotrodelectric said:
Sorry Phllipe- I had to ask. Hard to see that stuff from thousands of miles away. :clown:

Much more seriously- Is the solenoid the new one, and did you have any success touching the start wire direct to ground?

If you are using the old solenoid, replace it, and insulate the starter cable end from shorting to ground, then test I think part of us running in circles is the solder joints on the old solenoid have finally given up. If that is the new solenoid, some testing is in order. Even made in China, it shouldn't have given up already.

For a while there I thought your middle name was Indy. :cheers:
Click to expand...
 
harrisson_citroen said:
Hey Hotrod,

It's the new solenoid, and remember I installed it when I got it - on the battery positive - and it works fine ie: when I push the button under it , it starts the car no problems. So everything is fine there. The problem arises when I connect a cable to the starter wire of the solenoid then install a switch and connect the other end of the switch to ground. Pressing the button (on the switch) then produces nothing except a "click" and that's it.
Plot thickens.....:confused:
Click to expand...



Ok. Back to basics. Is it possible for you to send me (PM, email or here on the site)a pic of the top of the new solenoid with the plastic cover off? If it's difficult to get off, don't- no point in damaging it. If possible I want to see which wire soldered in where, and how well. The charge wire should be in place near the battery post terminal. The start wire should be in it's own little 'cove' on the other side of the solenoid, directly across from the battery terminal.

Where did you ground the button at? My recommendation would be one of the bolts at the steering column. That's simply because it is actually part of the chassis. OTOH, nearly any dash assembly screw or bolt should give the desired ground. After we make sure that the solenoid is correctly set up from the factory per above, try this- take a test lead with alligator clips, clip one end to the ground side of the switch, and the other side to another ground point i.e. steering column. The threaded end of a bolt is a good place to go.

You can also try bypassing your new switch, simply by swapping the alligator clip from the ground side of the switch to the solenoid side. This will give you a check to see if any crimped ends at the switch need to be replaced. You can also clip the alligator end directly to the wire itself, bypassing everything. I've had to do all this on occasion myself, so don't feel bad if you do. It happens.
 
Am I the only one that thinks his new solenoid is obviously no good :confused: if sticking a live and earth across the switching contacts doesn't make the soleniod go "thump" and crank the motor, the solenoid is dead :)

It not at all unusual to find new parts no good straight out of the box in my experience :(

seeya,
Shane L.
 
DoubleChevron said:
Am I the only one that thinks his new solenoid is obviously no good :confused: if sticking a live and earth across the switching contacts doesn't make the soleniod go "thump" and crank the motor, the solenoid is dead :)

It not at all unusual to find new parts no good straight out of the box in my experience :(

seeya,
Shane L.
Click to expand...

No, you aren't. I bet a dollar I've seen it more often than you.:whip:

The whole thing is I'm trying to avoid that. New solenoids are right around 100.00, and I would rather get Phil's new one working than tell him "Sorry, mate. That one is knackered, spend some more money." There's enough variable here that it isn't necessarily the solenoid. Even if it is, I'm looking for a simple, direct fix. I'm just too old school that way.
 
Here's a picture or 2, the start wire is attached as you describe it in its own little corner whereas the charge wire seems to come off the positive directly.
I can definitely assure everyone that the solenoid works exactly in the same way as the old one did, so we're on the wrong track there.
I suspect more like the grounding myself.
 

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harrisson_citroen said:
Here's a picture or 2, the start wire is attached as you describe it in its own little corner whereas the charge wire seems to come off the positive directly.
I can definitely assure everyone that the solenoid works exactly in the same way as the old one did, so we're on the wrong track there.
I suspect more like the grounding myself.
Click to expand...

I am in severe need of a vacation. I have now referred to myself as "old school" twice in this thread. One more time and I'm throwing a BS flag on myself. :bs:

OK- excellent. What you show was what I was hoping to see. So, let's put this suspect ground theory to the acid test. You have a failure in there somewhere, I wanna find out what it is. We'll go with Shane's assertion first.

Get yourself a test lead, preferably with alligator clips on both ends. In this case though, even just a simple piece of wire with the ends stripped back 10-15mm will work. No amperages to speak of, so no danger to you at 12V. The following tests can be done, actually should be done with the ignition off.

Test one: Disconnect the new button switch wire from the solenoid. Take your test lead and apply one end of it to the start wire coming from the solenoid. Touch the other end to the battery negative post. This should pop the solenoid closed with some force.
Works like it should? Go to test two.

Check and make sure your connections are firmly crimped on your button wire. Then:

Test two. Reconnect the solenoid to your new wire. Go inside the car, disconnect the wire from the switch, and then ground that wire with your test lead directly to a solid ground. Even one of the dash mount assembly screws should work for this. If this does not pass, check your connection crimps. If it does pass, go to test 3.

Test 3: OK, we now know that the wiring out to the solenoid works. Reconnect the wire to the switch. Remove the wire leading from the switch to ground- we'll test that last. Apply your test lead to the terminal where the ground wire was, connect the other end to a solid ground, and punch your button. This test tells you if your switch is OK.

Test 4: I think you can see how I'm headed here.
 
Thanks Hotrod,

Will be doing this on the week end. Stuck at work for now. :yawn:

Cheers
Hotrodelectric said:
I am in severe need of a vacation. I have now referred to myself as "old school" twice in this thread. One more time and I'm throwing a BS flag on myself. :bs:

OK- excellent. What you show was what I was hoping to see. So, let's put this suspect ground theory to the acid test. You have a failure in there somewhere, I wanna find out what it is. We'll go with Shane's assertion first.

Get yourself a test lead, preferably with alligator clips on both ends. In this case though, even just a simple piece of wire with the ends stripped back 10-15mm will work. No amperages to speak of, so no danger to you at 12V. The following tests can be done, actually should be done with the ignition off.

Test one: Disconnect the new button switch wire from the solenoid. Take your test lead and apply one end of it to the start wire coming from the solenoid. Touch the other end to the battery negative post. This should pop the solenoid closed with some force.
Works like it should? Go to test two.

Check and make sure your connections are firmly crimped on your button wire. Then:

Test two. Reconnect the solenoid to your new wire. Go inside the car, disconnect the wire from the switch, and then ground that wire with your test lead directly to a solid ground. Even one of the dash mount assembly screws should work for this. If this does not pass, check your connection crimps. If it does pass, go to test 3.

Test 3: OK, we now know that the wiring out to the solenoid works. Reconnect the wire to the switch. Remove the wire leading from the switch to ground- we'll test that last. Apply your test lead to the terminal where the ground wire was, connect the other end to a solid ground, and punch your button. This test tells you if your switch is OK.

Test 4: I think you can see how I'm headed here.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
I seem to remember years ago that some D owners had to install relays in the solenoid triggering circuit to overcome voltage drop.
The drop in voltage meant the solenoid didn't throw in hard enough to make an effective circuit. I suspect an aging solenoid didn't help too. Maybe with a relay in the triggering circuit the original gear lever switch may work ?

Keep having fun.

Richard
 
That could be the cause, I'll see what Hotrod has to say as I'm following the order of his tests and hopefully find after eliminating every other possibility.
It's fun though and a great learning curve, as my skills in automotive electrics are zero. As a matter of fact it's surprising the car hasn't caught fire yet !
citroenut said:
I seem to remember years ago that some D owners had to install relays in the solenoid triggering circuit to overcome voltage drop.
The drop in voltage meant the solenoid didn't throw in hard enough to make an effective circuit. I suspect an aging solenoid didn't help too. Maybe with a relay in the triggering circuit the original gear lever switch may work ?

Keep having fun.

Richard
Click to expand...
 
Bill,

Reporting on my latest tests. As suggested, I put the battery charger on low for about 7-8 hours and had another go at triggering through the new button as per video 3. Same result, I can hear it click, but no start. I don't think anything is wrong with the solenoid as it works fine when you push the button on it. I'm stumped as to why it works by itself and yet a remote button cannot trigger it!
 
harrisson_citroen said:
Bill,

Reporting on my latest tests. As suggested, I put the battery charger on low for about 7-8 hours and had another go at triggering through the new button as per video 3. Same result, I can hear it click, but no start. I don't think anything is wrong with the solenoid as it works fine when you push the button on it. I'm stumped as to why it works by itself and yet a remote button cannot trigger it!
Click to expand...

Hi Phil-

Steve (Citroenfan) made a point to me in the other thread that I hadn't considered. Just under the copper plates is a copper daisy wheel, which is how the actual contact is made between the two plates. You depressing the button forces the wheel into contact with the plates, starting the car. Now, the wheel sets down into the phenolic body until summoned. A fix I've seen for original solenoids- the one Steve pointed out here- was to bend the wheel 'petals' up ever so slightly. The trick here will be to keep the petals just below the top surface of that well. If they're bent too far up, you run the risk of constant contact with the plates. Guaranteed, you do not want that.

You'll be able to remove the one plate that's screwed down- the cable side. You will have to turn the wheel from petal to petal as you're doing this. Not difficult, just fiddly. Just ultimately keep the petals below that mounting surface. I have been able to remove the wheel and reinstall it, but that is a major pain in the butt- not recommended. Take a marker and mark the first one you adjust- simply so you have a starting/finishing point.

Before you start, remember- negative cable off first and on last. Removing the starter cable from the solenoid makes that cable inert- no need to worry about it. DON'T lose the plate screws! At this point, you should be able to remove the solenoid from the car and just take it to your workbench. Makes enjoying a nice, cold Foster's ("It's Australian for beer, mate!") easier. :adrink:

(Yes- I am aware Foster's is equivalent to our Coors. Horse piss would taste better cold. I'm a Yank making a very tired, smart-assed joke. So sue me.)
 
Thanks Bill. Will try that then.

Fosters hey.........:nownow::nownow::nownow:.....Cab-Sav is more like what we drink down here now!:approve:
 
Hotrodelectric said:
Hi Phil-

Steve (Citroenfan) made a point to me in the other thread that I hadn't considered. Just under the copper plates is a copper daisy wheel, which is how the actual contact is made between the two plates. You depressing the button forces the wheel into contact with the plates, starting the car. Now, the wheel sets down into the phenolic body until summoned. A fix I've seen for original solenoids- the one Steve pointed out here- was to bend the wheel 'petals' up ever so slightly. The trick here will be to keep the petals just below the top surface of that well. If they're bent too far up, you run the risk of constant contact with the plates. Guaranteed, you do not want that.

You'll be able to remove the one plate that's screwed down- the cable side. You will have to turn the wheel from petal to petal as you're doing this. Not difficult, just fiddly. Just ultimately keep the petals below that mounting surface. I have been able to remove the wheel and reinstall it, but that is a major pain in the butt- not recommended. Take a marker and mark the first one you adjust- simply so you have a starting/finishing point.

Before you start, remember- negative cable off first and on last. Removing the starter cable from the solenoid makes that cable inert- no need to worry about it. DON'T lose the plate screws! At this point, you should be able to remove the solenoid from the car and just take it to your workbench. Makes enjoying a nice, cold Foster's ("It's Australian for beer, mate!") easier. :adrink:

(Yes- I am aware Foster's is equivalent to our Coors. Horse piss would taste better cold. I'm a Yank making a very tired, smart-assed joke. So sue me.)
Click to expand...

EUREKA!.......it works.
I followed the instructions, and although I was a bit suspicious that it would work, I have to report that it is a great success.
And what a pleasure it will now be to start the car from INSIDE, instead of lifting the bonnet at every stop.
I think the combination of lifting the little "wings" on the solenoid with trickle charging the battery all day yesterday made the difference. And it is also a reminder that sometimes it is only a fine line (1/10 of a mm in this case) between success and failure.
Although nowI can see somesparks through the translucent plastic if I use the button on the solenoid (Wings too close to the plate?)

Bill, I promise I will never laugh at Americans again. Or is W Bush still on the lectures circuit?

Forever grateful.:cheers:

I'll post a video of it, in case it is helpful to someone else.
 
Hooray for a result here! And what a fantastic illustration of the value of AF - all the thinking and helping and cooperative brains-trust experience and thinking that is collected here and which works to help others.

Ian.
 
harrisson_citroen said:
EUREKA!.......it works.
I followed the instructions, and although I was a bit suspicious that it would work, I have to report that it is a great success.
And what a pleasure it will now be to start the car from INSIDE, instead of lifting the bonnet at every stop.
I think the combination of lifting the little "wings" on the solenoid with trickle charging the battery all day yesterday made the difference. And it is also a reminder that sometimes it is only a fine line (1/10 of a mm in this case) between success and failure.
Although nowI can see somesparks through the translucent plastic if I use the button on the solenoid (Wings too close to the plate?)

Bill, I promise I will never laugh at Americans again. Or is W Bush still on the lectures circuit?

Forever grateful.:cheers:

I'll post a video of it, in case it is helpful to someone else.
Click to expand...

No- the sparks aren't from too close, but rather from making and breaking contact. That's one thing that happens to any solenoid, it's just not usually visible. Some relays and solenoids have diodes inserted between the ground and hot sides to help prevent this. I've never seen that on a D solenoid though- Imma gonna say you don't need to do that.

Just do yourself one favor: keep an eye on that for the first few starts, and carry a wrench sized for the battery cable in case the solenoid sticks on. Shut the ignition off, and pull the negative cable. I don't think anything will happen, but better prepared than not. Before long you'll wonder why you're carrying a spanner in your map pocket.

And hell, you can make fun of us all you want- after all, we were the guys who invented the hula-hoop and the atom bomb. :crazy:
 
IWS said:
Hooray for a result here! And what a fantastic illustration of the value of AF - all the thinking and helping and cooperative brains-trust experience and thinking that is collected here and which works to help others.

Ian.
Click to expand...

It did work out OK, didn't it? I do believe in the site's tagline "Share the Knowledge".
 
Hotrodelectric said:
It did work out OK, didn't it? I do believe in the site's tagline "Share the Knowledge".
Click to expand...

Do think given this success, that by now connecting directly to the ignition switch it would yield the same result?

Congratulations all involved, especially HRE, you're a real asset here :)

Cheers
Chris
 
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