starter battery solenoid on DS23IE.....Hotrodelectric, where are youuuuuu!!!!!!!!!

[Hotrodelectric]

:doh: I gotta learn to type faster...

 

[harrisson_citroen]

Truly very much appreciated Hotrod.!

Now, because this is a little beyond my electricals skills and am not able to trace those two flying wires out in the engine bay , can I use some lateral thinking here.

Having established those two flyingwires at the barrel, can I cut them there, then join another length of wires to them and take those directly to the solenoid ?

The previous picture I posted wasn't the correct one , this is the one I bought.

 

[Hotrodelectric]

Truly very much appreciated Hotrod.!

Now, because this is a little beyond my electricals skills and am not able to trace those two flying wires out in the engine bay , can I use some lateral thinking here.

Having established those two flyingwires at the barrel, can I cut them there, then join another length of wires to them and take those directly to the solenoid ?

The previous picture I posted wasn't the correct one , this is the one I bought.

Hi Phil-

First of all, Feliz Navidad to ya.

Was the alternator changed out from the factory stock one? If it was, you will need a ground wire. From the brown lead on the ignition switch, splice on a piece of 14ga (black is OK) and find a suitable grounding point, such as an assembly bolt or the system ground stud.

Let's see if we can find that one wire that goes towards the solenoid. Do you own a test light? If you don't, get yourself an inexpensive one- shouldn't be more than a few dollars. Any reputable parts store will have one.

OK- you have your test light. Your car is what, a '73? Seek out the charge wire. That will be the one that connects directly to the battery bolt on the solenoid. It's a fair size wire (we would say a 10ga), the only other wire that's bigger is the cable to the starter (I think those are a 6ga). Either with a black sheath or wrapped to that charge wire should be your start wire. That will be a black wire with a red-sleeved 4mm end. If that wire does not appear to be there, don't panic. Do a little investigating. Feel for a consistent lump that snakes down towards the the fender connection. It may have broken off- the engine compartment wiring on a D tends to get rather well beaten. Look thoroughly- it may have gotten disconnected by a previous owner and just tossed to the side.

If you found it- great. That test light I had you buy is now going to get put to use. Connect the battery. Connect the clip end to the start wire end. Take the probe end and stick it into the positive battery clamp- you see the gap where the two halves of the clamp come together? There will be good, just ensure it's firmly touching lead there. While you watch the light for on/off, have your wife/significant other/slave/trained monkey turn the ignition switch to start. A light means you've found the correct wire. Turn the switch on and off a couple of times to confirm.

At this point, you can connect the wire directly to it's pin on the solenoid for a brief test. However, I cannot stress this caution enough- make sure the transmission is firmly in park and the handbrake is set. You will be bypassing the neutral safety switch, something I strenuously warn against in most all situations. In park and brake set, connect the wire you found and the yellow wire together, and attempt to start the car. You don't even need to start the car- you just need some reaction from the starter solenoid.

If you did not or cannot find the wire: Then yes- you'll need to cut and splice a wire. Go from the white wire to the solenoid. You'll have to sneak a wire out the passenger side of the harness to the solenoid. Black wire will simply make the appearance better. 14ga should be sufficient. You can use a wire coat hanger and a generous amount of masking tape to get the wire out past the foam seal at the firewall. If you have a stereo cutout in the dash under the glovebox, remove the stereo (no need to disconnect it) and from there, you should be able to get it across the dash from there. Just be careful poking around- don't want to do any damage. Hookup and testing will be the same as above. Use red shrink tubing if available to permanently mark your new wire at the terminal.

Regardless of what method you used to get a ground signal to the solenoid:​ We now need to find the wiring coming from the neutral safety switch. there are four wires: two reds, a yellow, and a mauve. The yellow and mauve are your reversing lights. David S made an important point: check to see if your reversing lights are working. With parking brake set, engine not running, put the car in reverse, and have your lovely assistant tell you on or off. That would tell you the switch is operational.

It is probably a gang of 4 wires in a separate bundle coming from that switch. You want the two red marked ones. Connect male to female, and female to male at the solenoid. IOW, the yellow wire from the solenoid will connect to one of the two coming from the transmission. The wire you found/replaced will connect to the remaining wire from the transmission.

The system is now connected and ready to test from the driver's seat. Car in park, parking brake applied, try to start the car.

I'm going to be away for a couple of days, I'll try to check in on your progress from another computer.


Cheers-
Bill

 

[harrisson_citroen]

Thank you so much for this help Hotrod. I will also be in and out in the coming few days but will hopefully get into it asap.

By the way, if ever you're in Brisbane......


Happy Christmas.

 

[harrisson_citroen]

:banana:Some Success,

Attached are two pictures.

I have found blue tag wire "C" which appears to RETURN from the transmission. I connected the clip to it and the light to positive on battery, when key turned to ignition the light comes ON :banana:


Buoyed by a new spirit of excitement, I promptly connected this wire "C" to wire "A". And turned the key nothing happened. I guess it's because I have to do something with wire "B"

Connect to chassis?

 

[DoubleChevron]

I havent' read the thread ... but isn't this just a simple soleniod.... Hook the two big chunky power terminals to the starter/battery '+". Hook the soleniod "+" side too a 12volt power feed (straight to the battery is fine if you don't mind it being able to be cranked with the ignition off).... and the earth should be back to the starter lever inside the car.

If this isn't working, try earthing the lead the "earth" that goes back into the starter switch. If it then cranks, you have a problem with the starter switch inside the car.

seeya,
Shane L.

 

[Hotrodelectric]

:banana:Some Success,

Attached are two pictures.

I have found blue tag wire "C" which appears to RETURN from the transmission. I connected the clip to it and the light to positive on battery, when key turned to ignition the light comes ON :banana:


Buoyed by a new spirit of excitement, I promptly connected this wire "C" to wire "A". And turned the key nothing happened. I guess it's because I have to do something with wire "B"

Connect to chassis?
View attachment 51192View attachment 51193

Hi Phil-

I'm back from Daffy's. It was leave San Diego at that minute, or kill someone and burn their house down.

OK- it appears you've actually made some pretty good progress. You've found the output wire from the transmission by your description.

Look carefully at the top of your solenoid. You will see that the copper plates are two pieces, not one. This allows the charging and starting circuits to work independently. The wire you see as "A" is the charge circuit side, and is used for either the battery charge wire, or on some cars is used as a battery + wire out to, say, the horn compressor, or in your case possibly battery feed for the EFI. This wire needs insulation at the end- this should not be exposed.

The other wire you've marked as "B" is the actual starter engage wire- this is the one that completes the circuit engaging the solenoid itself. One end of the solenoid coil is permanently attached to battery +. The other end- the negative end- is the one you identified. Placing a negative signal to this wire (connecting it to ground) completes the circuit, magnetizing the coil and driving a piston inside the coil out, compressing a copper wheel against the two copper plates, thereby sending battery power to the starter. To see how this works in a limited way, clip a test lead to wire "B", and touch the other end to battery ground. You can actually remove the one copper plate that has been screwed into position (the one with the cable to the starter), and try this. You'll see the copper daisy wheel pop up and down as you apply and take away the ground. Replace the copper plate to the solenoid when you're done visualizing.

The last thing to do, before you hook "C" to "B" is ensure you've found the transmission wire. Connect the test light just the way you had it for "C", and with the park brake set and a wheel chocked firmly against rolling, engine not running, ensure you get a light in park. Then, place the transmission in any other gear other than neutral. The light should go out. Place the car back in park, and the light should come on.

Connect "C" to "B". If nothing else was disturbed (the car did run before this, right?) your car should start. Remember to insulate that wire at "A", whether or not it gets used.

Start and run? Have a beer, my friend. You've earned it.:adrink:


Cheers-
Bill

 

[fritzelhund]

Bill, Now you see what I was alluding to a few days ago. Note the relays attached to the battery hold down frame... Do I count 5 with a fusible link as well ??? That is the sort of non consumer friendly layer upon layer thinking I was thinking of...and I bet there is an inadequate length of wiring to allow removal of the battery frame as well. It is all in the fun of older Citroen ownership. They have cleaned up their act with new models that you don't see in North America..almost Japanese efficiency with lots and lots of fuses .. the fuse box is half the size of a brief case it seems, and there are others hidden in internal spots as well .. and to remove/replace the battery, only a snail cam needs be twisted and the 2 battery cables removed.

 

[harrisson_citroen]

Bill,

First I hope you are not serious when you talk of bad vibes during your holidays, and if that's the case I certainly hope it wasn't with Daffy!.
You two guys are CITROEN AMERICA, and you are a beacon of light, and we need you united and keeping your excellent contributions coming!

Well, well,well... back from a trip today I read your post and went in for a final check as recommended: connect light to C and check the light goes off in gears others than parkand neutral. Sure enough..today... the bleeding light didn't come on when in Park and activating the key.
I have seen it work the other day, and I repeated it 3 times to make sure. So I think I've again disturbed some wires whilst poking around. Getting dark now, so back to it tomorrow in full sunlight.

Cheers

Hi Phil-

I'm back from Daffy's. It was leave San Diego at that minute, or kill someone and burn their house down.

OK- it appears you've actually made some pretty good progress. You've found the output wire from the transmission by your description.

Look carefully at the top of your solenoid. You will see that the copper plates are two pieces, not one. This allows the charging and starting circuits to work independently. The wire you see as "A" is the charge circuit side, and is used for either the battery charge wire, or on some cars is used as a battery + wire out to, say, the horn compressor, or in your case possibly battery feed for the EFI. This wire needs insulation at the end- this should not be exposed.

The other wire you've marked as "B" is the actual starter engage wire- this is the one that completes the circuit engaging the solenoid itself. One end of the solenoid coil is permanently attached to battery +. The other end- the negative end- is the one you identified. Placing a negative signal to this wire (connecting it to ground) completes the circuit, magnetizing the coil and driving a piston inside the coil out, compressing a copper wheel against the two copper plates, thereby sending battery power to the starter. To see how this works in a limited way, clip a test lead to wire "B", and touch the other end to battery ground. You can actually remove the one copper plate that has been screwed into position (the one with the cable to the starter), and try this. You'll see the copper daisy wheel pop up and down as you apply and take away the ground. Replace the copper plate to the solenoid when you're done visualizing.

The last thing to do, before you hook "C" to "B" is ensure you've found the transmission wire. Connect the test light just the way you had it for "C", and with the park brake set and a wheel chocked firmly against rolling, engine not running, ensure you get a light in park. Then, place the transmission in any other gear other than neutral. The light should go out. Place the car back in park, and the light should come on.

Connect "C" to "B". If nothing else was disturbed (the car did run before this, right?) your car should start. Remember to insulate that wire at "A", whether or not it gets used.

Start and run? Have a beer, my friend. You've earned it.:adrink:


Cheers-
Bill

 

[Hotrodelectric]

Bill, Now you see what I was alluding to a few days ago. Note the relays attached to the battery hold down frame... Do I count 5 with a fusible link as well ??? That is the sort of non consumer friendly layer upon layer thinking I was thinking of...and I bet there is an inadequate length of wiring to allow removal of the battery frame as well. It is all in the fun of older Citroen ownership. They have cleaned up their act with new models that you don't see in North America..almost Japanese efficiency with lots and lots of fuses .. the fuse box is half the size of a brief case it seems, and there are others hidden in internal spots as well .. and to remove/replace the battery, only a snail cam needs be twisted and the 2 battery cables removed.

Yes, I do see what you were talking about. I do apologize for dropping a bomb on you like that. There was no reason for me to go off that.

I didn't look too closely at the makeup of the wiring in Phil's snaps. I think two of the relays is for the FI (an earlier model would have had three), one for the secondary cooling fan, I think one for the A/C, and that fifth might be a "spare" relay. I know we saw 2 or 3 in that location depending on options, and normally one was left blank- for whatever reason, I still don't know. If there is a fusible link there, it will be a later addition- fusible links didn't even exist in a European sense until decades later.

When I did a custom system for a streetrod, I strove to make a neat system like for a new car. It made life easier for the customer, and of course it was just one more thing for them to show off.

If you look, you see that it's lots of smaller amperage fuses now, rather than one larger one covering several circuits. The reason basically is that, with all of the electronics in today's cars, the the feeds have become massive, and it needs to be broken down in size to keep things manageable. It's not unusual anymore to see things like a Kia Rio for instance, needing 85 amps to keep it all powered up. Look at a new Cadillac, and 175 amps is not at all strange now. There was quite a bit of talk in the industry to go to 36 or even 48 volt systems, just to cut the amperage load down. The side benefit would be to cut the physical size of the looms down- 48 volts requires less amperage, ergo smaller gauge wire, to do the same work. Where all that went, I don't know (I've been out of that end for quite a while now), but don't be surprised if you start seeing larger voltages. Consumer demand has pretty much pushed 12V systems past the point of no return.

I guess I'm too old-school, but I just do not trust quick-release battery clamps. To me, they're like a flip-style cell phone. They just feel too flimsy for my taste.

 

[Hotrodelectric]

Bill,

First I hope you are not serious when you talk of bad vibes during your holidays, and if that's the case I certainly hope it wasn't with Daffy!.
You two guys are CITROEN AMERICA, and you are a beacon of light, and we need you united and keeping your excellent contributions coming!

Well, well,well... back from a trip today I read your post and went in for a final check as recommended: connect light to C and check the light goes off in gears others than parkand neutral. Sure enough..today... the bleeding light didn't come on when in Park and activating the key.
I have seen it work the other day, and I repeated it 3 times to make sure. So I think I've again disturbed some wires whilst poking around. Getting dark now, so back to it tomorrow in full sunlight.

Cheers

Nooooo!!! Not with Daffy. I was at his house the last couple of days basically being a recliner potato. He was home for other reasons and being 115 miles away made him the perfect, for lack of a better word, destination.

I appreciate the compliment, but we aren't the only ones. There are others scattered throughout the US trying to keep this alive.

That blue end might be suffering from a bad crimp. You can try recrimping it, or put a new one on.

 

[harrisson_citroen]

Hey Rod, no go. Am not able to get a light on that bleeding C wire anymore.
Last day of the holidays. The wife says no more DS now, family time.
The thing with this DS23 Injection Automatique with air conditioning is that the number of wires is phenomenal. At some stage someone renewed them and they are all either green or black!!!!!

Tell me if I'm wrong but because the solenoid does trigger the starter and absolutely everything else is okay, can I not just bring a wire from the solenoid (starter wire?) into the car, connect to a new start button, and ground the other end and Bob's your uncle? Thereby triggering the solenoid from inside the car, since that is proven to work
Have you ever had a holiday in Australia, Rod?

That blue end might be suffering from a bad crimp. You can try recrimping it, or put a new one on.

 

[Hotrodelectric]

Hey Rod, no go. Am not able to get a light on that bleeding C wire anymore.
Last day of the holidays. The wife says no more DS now, family time.
The thing with this DS23 Injection Automatique with air conditioning is that the number of wires is phenomenal. At some stage someone renewed them and they are all either green or black!!!!!

Tell me if I'm wrong but because the solenoid does trigger the starter and absolutely everything else is okay, can I not just bring a wire from the solenoid (starter wire?) into the car, connect to a new start button, and ground the other end and Bob's your uncle? Thereby triggering the solenoid from inside the car, since that is proven to work
Have you ever had a holiday in Australia, Rod?

Sure- you can do that. But you have to be mindful- the car must always be in park or neutral when you start it. Starting in any other gear will, sooner or later equal disaster.

The switch doesn't have to be very big. It can even be a dash switch (i.e. fan or plafonnier) modified so it doesn't latch. I think that's just remove the metal plate on the side of the switch. I might even have something I can just give you. All you'll be doing is completing a ground circuit that carries low amperage for a few seconds.

Actually, all the wire underhood on your car is supposed to be green or black! It's the 10 different colors of wire insulating ends and the specific locations that tell you what wire is supposed to do what. IDK about the EFI- I know that most Germanic (MB, SAAB, Volvo, etc,) cars that used that system use white wire. I wouldn't be surprised that Citroen used yellow or some such, just to be obstinate.

Australia sounds like a great visit. I have no idea if I'll ever get to go, though.

 

[harrisson_citroen]

Okay, sojust checking before I get down there and do it:

- I extend wire B (starter wire) into the cabin,
- Attach it to one end of a start button,
- On the other end of the start button, connect a negative wire and run to somewhere on the chassis (ground).

When I push the button it should trigger the starter........

 

[Hotrodelectric]

Okay, sojust checking before I get down there and do it:

- I extend wire B (starter wire) into the cabin,
- Attach it to one end of a start button,
- On the other end of the start button, connect a negative wire and run to somewhere on the chassis (ground).

When I push the button it should trigger the starter........

Exactamundo.

 

[harrisson_citroen]

So I went and got myself a nice push button switch with black rubber boot this morning first up.

Connected wire 'B' (start wire) to one prong of the switch, connected another wire to the other prong which I then ran down to a nice earthing bolt and ensured a good connection to ground. For the 10th time went and checked I am in "PARK"
Back to the engine compartment, pushed the button, then ............click. some relay clicked, but no starter.

Can you offer further suggestions at this stage as to what I would be doing wrong.

Cheers

 

[Hotrodelectric]

Is the battery charged? All the messing with the system could have brought the voltage down enough to get what you describe. Have your wife/slave/trained monkey press the new button for you, and see if you can determine where the click comes from.

 

[DoubleChevron]

So I went and got myself a nice push button switch with black rubber boot this morning first up.

Connected wire 'B' (start wire) to one prong of the switch, connected another wire to the other prong which I then ran down to a nice earthing bolt and ensured a good connection to ground. For the 10th time went and checked I am in "PARK"
Back to the engine compartment, pushed the button, then ............click. some relay clicked, but no starter.

Can you offer further suggestions at this stage as to what I would be doing wrong.

Cheers

Are you sure the starter isn't dead Try shorting across the solenoid and see if the starter cranks ................

seeya,
shane L.

 

[harrisson_citroen]

Hey Guys,

No, everything is fine regarding battery and starter. I can activate the starter from the battery solenoid which works fine.

Hotrod, is it a fact that grounding the solenoid starting wire should activate the starter? If that's the case, I can just touch the start wire to the chassis and I should get a reaction, right? Or will I get more than I bargained for?

 

[Hotrodelectric]

Hey Guys,

No, everything is fine regarding battery and starter. I can activate the starter from the battery solenoid which works fine.

Hotrod, is it a fact that grounding the solenoid starting wire should activate the starter? If that's the case, I can just touch the start wire to the chassis and I should get a reaction, right? Or will I get more than I bargained for?

Yah- touching that wire to ground should get some sort of reaction, even if it is just the solenoid itself actuating. Just touch it briefly to see if you get the characteristic 'clonk'.

The solenoid you have installed right now- is that the new one? Even dumber question- you do have it mounted to the battery?