RHH cambelt

[DoubleChevron]

Hi Guys,

I figure I better throw a new cambelt at the boss womens RCZ this week. I've downloaded a vpn version of the manual that details changing it ( interesting, I definately would have rattle gunned the crank bolt ... it say DO NOT do this as you can sheer the bolt off in the crank). However it also doesn't list any tightening torques. Is there a trick to finding these in the manual ?

There is a link to the full manual here:

216.25 MB file on MEGA

mega.nz

seeya
Shane L.

 

[DoubleChevron]

OK, google it is

So I found this link here:

Cambelt change on an automatic c5 tourer 2010 2.0 HDI - French Car Forum

ReferenceDesignationTightening Torque(45)Bolts (Timing Cover)0,5 daNm(46)Bolts (Cylinder Reference Sensor )0,6 daNm(47)Bolts (Timing Chain Tensioner)0,6 daNm(48)Bolts (Roller Tensioner )5,7 daNm(49)Bolts (Engine Speed Sensor)0,7 daNm(50)Nut (Roller Tensioner ) (Timing Gear)2,1 daNm(51)Stud (Roller Tensioner ) (Timing Gear)1 daNm(52)Bolts (Camshaft Pulley )Pre-tighten to 2 daNm
Angular tightening to 60°

Bloody daNM, why not just use Nm .... anyway ... No crankbolt torque.

So the manual says DO NOT USE RATTLE GUN .... hmmmm.... So it about 1 uga duga to undo it .... and the correct torque is about 5 seconds of rattling on the impact wrench. That looked to be a grunty rattle gun too! He doesn't bother with any of the extra steps in the manual ....

 

[seasink]

You have the manual, so I won't have to post what I can find here in my stash. My RHH belt was done about a year ago, and the pulley bolt didn't need a rattle gun (I don't have one).

With the wheel off, access wasn't too bad. If you have done the RHR 407 you know most of the drill.

I'll have a look for the torque. da is one tenth. I bet your wrench is in ft.lb.

 

[seasink]

Bed time, but that manual looks like it's for an EP engine mostly.

 

[David S]

The issue is that the pulley bolt is most likely coated in a thread lock goop and may break if you use a rattle gun. The advice is to try undoing it up to one turn by hand using a reversible torque wrench and noting whether the torque required increases significantly and ensuring it does not exceed a specified maximum (reverse) torque of 20 daNm i.e. 200Nm. Risk of breakage. If you reach that limit, fully re-tighten to spread the goop around on the thread and repeat the process more than once as required. Or use a heat gun on the bolt to soften the goop.

Replace the bolt - M14 and part# 051660. Pre-tighten to 8 daNm, Angle tighten to 60°.

 

[DoubleChevron]

Urgghh... angle tighten. Last time I used that crappy angle gauge I've noticed it binds at isn't accurate Either way, sounds simple enough

 

[seasink]

60 deg is guessable (equilateral triangle). If still worried get a protractor or set square and mark the angle before you turn the wrench. I have never used an angle gauge tool.

 

[DoubleChevron]

Holly shit that was one tight bolt. No wonder they think you'll break it. I tried with the tension wrench (as described). Not a cracker. So I progressed to a bloody great breakers bar ..... Not a snowmans chance in hell. Even the 3/4" impact rattled for about 5 seconds to move it.

Can anyone say "tight" .... holly crap.

I can't imagine there isn't anyone that doesn't hit it with a big rattle gun.... damn that's tight! The massive force required when using a breakers bar will surely be more likely to sheer it off that impacts will.

 

[DoubleChevron]

If your reading this because your about to change the cambelt ... just remove the starter... You'll save yourself (literally) hours of grief and searching for that bastard hole that you absolutely know for sure is there.

I pulled the air cleaner housing out .... felt around, couldn't find it .... managed to ge the wiring harness retainers off .. which isn't easy as there is no space (wirinig runs straight over the area were trying to check) ... still couldn't find and feel anytthing... So I did something amazing ... RTFM ... It said the hole is below the starter ( WTF ?? Am I confusing the C2 with this motor, I'm sure its up high).

So I remove the pipework from below ... feel around ... search .... No bloody hole. Try using the locking tools to search around where my fingers can't reach .... bloody nothing

In desperation, decide to remove the starter ... So I undid the two alan bolts and remove the nut from the stud .... Nothing locked in solidly. So I spend quite a bit of time tyring to get my hand in and around the starter (impossible) to see if its tied to the block at the back... Hmmm... There is a bracket on bolt from the bottom of it, removing that bolt, proves yet, its nothing to do with the starter. Evenutally I realise the bracket on the starter stud slides off revealing, its not a stud, its a bolt with a extension thread on it. Finally I manage to get the starter out of the way. Feel around from the top .... Can't find anything... Lift the car back up again (for the 185th time today) and finally .... after dislocating my wrist and bending my elbow inside out, that yes, the holes is up where I thought it was towards the top. Only its competelly hidden by ribbing in the block. And its easy to loose it as soon as you move your finger away.

So none of the tools in the timing tools set would fit in there. There were either too deep, or bent the wrong way ... or too long. A 7mm alan key did though.

Are we having fun yet ?? This should have been done and back together by now. It would easily take 1/4 of the time to do a 2nd one. Guess who has no intention of doing another The pins are in now and its ready to change but I had visitors turn up.

Oh you want pictures?

well I can do this ...

and this .... But if you think I can take pictures of any of this .... there isn't a snowmans change in hell.

That trick for drain the gearbox oil worked for the coolant. I think its the first time I've ever managed to drain a car without drowning the floor (don't worry, the block will still be full, so the waterpump will still flood everything when I pull it off).

Oh, you really want photos ?? Yeah well....

Did that help you find the pin hole at all ??

seeya,
Shane L.

 

[seasink]

I just looked up my service diary for the RHH. The belt was changed because of age.

I bottle coolant (dealer part)
1 water pump
1 timing belt kit
3 1/2 hrs of mucking about and occasionally swearing. I don't have a hoist or rattle gun.

Started first time and bled the cooling system. A few minutes more. I understand that is about Citroen's time. Your next time will be easier.

I really hate those hose clips - I must buy the correct pliers.

Didn't you do the RHR a while ago?

 

[DoubleChevron]

I just looked up my service diary for the RHH. The belt was changed because of age.

I bottle coolant (dealer part)
1 water pump
1 timing belt kit
3 1/2 hrs of mucking about and occasionally swearing. I don't have a hoist or rattle gun.

Started first time and bled the cooling system. A few minutes more. I understand that is about Citroen's time. Your next time will be easier.

Didn't you do the RHR a while ago?

Did you pop the starter out? I wasted litterally an hour or two searching for the hole. It's not easy to get to or find. I imagne the underbonnet area of an rcz is slightly more cramped than a C5

2nd time around .... 15minutes to drop the starter and access from below. I now know there is no point to trying to find it with the tools .. or my fingers ... etc

How on earth did you get that bolt undone without a rattle gun. I'm not exagerating when I said I tried a big breakers bar!

 

[seasink]

Loosened it from memory. I know about that hole. My pulley was nothing like your experience, more like David S's description. The C5 isn't too tight at the front, but it sure is at the belt covers. There is the dog bone engine mount in the C5.

It is such a simple engine isn't it?

 

[DoubleChevron]

Someone will have been here before on this car. I'd say that pulley was tightened up with a big strong impact wrench. A lot of the hoses I've found have worn drive clamps on them down low .... and the sump looks to be in two parts... and has been resealed.

Its actually quite damp the motor. It doesn't look to be anywhere near as oil tight as the RHR motor. Someone has obviously already tried to seal it up previously. I reckon the rocker cover might be weeping, and so might the upper or lower sump.

 

[seasink]

The factory radiator hose clamps are the sprung type with a pair of lugs for squeezing with special pliers with a long flex cable. Helical drives suggests replacements.

The sump may have been opened to recover a dipstick tip. I doubt it has had new bearings. My engine leaks oil nowhere.

 

[DoubleChevron]

The factory radiator hose clamps are the sprung type with a pair of lugs for squeezing with special pliers with a long flex cable. Helical drives suggests replacements.

The sump may have been opened to recover a dipstick tip. I doubt it has had new bearings. My engine leaks oil nowhere.

Oh I doubt the motor has been touched, dipstick is a good suggestion. a lot of work to try and retrieve a bit of plastic that will sit in the sump though.

Oh, and the manual is wrong, I figured I'd at least swap over the water pump before tea ....

You can't get the belt tensioner out .... it just doesn't quite fit through the gap. So the engine mount will need to be removed and I'll need to lift the motor up to clear it. I did try a lever, there isn't anywhere near enough movement though.

 

[seasink]

Your car is different from the C5, as it uses the mount design on most PSA medium cars.

The C5 sits on a fluid filled rubber for the vertical force and with a dogbone strut for horizontal loads. You have to get it out of the way and prop up the engine from below. I presume it's for a quieter ride.

 

[DoubleChevron]

So moving along with this 3.5hour job .... I'm not jacking it from below (is it a plastic sump or plastic covers? ). I have an engine crane with sitting in front of the car that I'm tripping over while I'm working on this. I just need to dump the motor thats already swinging on it somewhere...

Seriously, who owns Etorx sockets? Why do this to people (ok, ok ... I've been bitten by these things before and have an Etorx socket set here).

handy lift point, right there where we want it.

that's an interesting mount design. No doubt very strong against twisting as this car dreams its a sports car. It looks split, not brand new now I've lifted it up.

I'm going to need a long 16mm spanner to get the idler puller bolt undone. its going to be loctited, so I'll end up breaking those hoses or rounding it if I try a normal spanner.

No room for a socket or standard length spanner. I must admit, I'm a bit more than concerned.... Will I be able to get that bolt out far enough to remove the idler?? .... which would make it an engine out job to change the idler bearing

I don't own any long spanners... I've just been googling the local tools stores. After picking myself up off the floor at the prices of the sets, it looks like sydney tools has a long spanner 16mm for $25. So I'm off for a drive in the shitbox to sydney tools

 

[seasink]

The RHH DW10C has a shiny painted steel sump, easy to prop up with some wood on a jack. It's the DW10F later that has a plastic sump and a twist-out plug.

The sumps are glued on with an exceedingly strongly adhesive sealant. If you need the sump off, you'll have to cut through the sealant (there is a special tool) horizontally. If you pry down you'll deform the sump and have to get it straight again. I bought some of the glue/sealant once at a parts shop for replacing one of these.

 

[DoubleChevron]

yeah, steal sump. Who the hell said this was a 3.5 hour job ??

yes, long `16mm spanner. It was torqued but no loctite fortunately. The bearings in the tensioners and pulleys feel damn near brand new. Even the water pump feels more than usable (barely any rock in its shaft). the bearings are still stiff likely they are freshly packed new bearings, not 14 year old bearings with 180,000kms on them. Even the belt looks good (if you flex it over hard, you can open very fine cracks in it).

The factory water pump sucks... its a silicon that must be a part of its assembly you need to try and scrape off up in that enclosed space.

Now the belt .... ARRRRRhhhhh, just like the 407. I just CANNOT get it on. Its like its 1/2 tooth out. When I struggled with the 407 others said you need to fit it with the tensioner at the same time ..... I tried ... absultey impossible. There is no space in there to even attempt it. Its only 40degrees in the shed, so all the sweat dripping in your eyes helps. Oh, and after struggling for ages and deciding, nope the only way is the way I've already failed ... is the crank last (where you have access).... I hear a loud "PING" .... No guesses what that is. No where did I leave the engine crane. I now need to pull the tensioner back out and re-pin it.

And finally... I JUST manage to squeeze it on. What have I been doing wrong all this time? Well the pins, the clearance on them are 100% with no movement. You need some wiggle there so you can get the front side of the belt on. Once I pulled both pins mostly out so the crank and cam could wiggle a small amount, this allowed me to get that last 1/2tooth on down the front of the belt and slip it on.

 

[seasink]

Next time will be easier. Most shops charge about $1000, so it's not an all day job when you include the parts cost.

Go and get a refreshing ale.