My new challenge - 1964 ID19F Safari

[bleudanube]

It is doing my head in…

Changes made:

Paris Motors Said they had a points set, so I went to pick it up but it wasn’t the right one… found a new points ‘arm’ in his spares box and a new/used Ducellier condenser… Better than nothing - took them and popped them in… also found the E-clip on top of the points shaft missing (thank you Ken) and added it.

Idled sweetly, went for a drive around the block - AAAARGGHHHH - still coughing and farting under load/full acceleration. FARK…

Hobbled back into the garage and went to talk to the carburettor… pulled it out to play with the fuel feed and float / bowl levels.

Here is what I found:

Fuel pump feeds 1.25L/min without back pressure (cranking fuel into a bottle) - surely that is plenty!? That’s 75L an hour - the Safari ain’t a bloody Bugatti Veyron at top speed

Taking the top off, fuel level is 25-27mm below the top join. The 15mm I found in a manual was for a Solex, so red herring … dismissed.

Checked all the jets, tubes, accelerator pump squirts again and I cannot find an issue. All appear in the right place and clean.

Float is accurate as per manual at 8mm and 13mm from the join open and closed - tick!

So I plonked the top onto a plastic container and filled it with fuel until the needle closed off - that happens at 20-22mm from the top!

Did the same trick with the carbie removed and top back on - same result : 20-22mm from the top is the fuel level when the float stops the pump feeding fuel in… I am 5mm lower when the engine is running…

How can that be? Does it even matter? Maybe 25-27mm is fine to run when nothing else is wrong…

QUESTION:
Would anyone have a 1911cc engined car with a 24/32 Weber DDC A1 carbie to whip the top off and check their level to confirm or deny the allegation of fuel starvation?

What else can I do? We checked the HT lead and spark strength (thank you schlitzaugen) - all good.

Could the points still be dodgy? Third condenser also crap? New coil no good? Surely not…

The ‘Tractor’ is getting to me! I am missing something significant…

 

[Buttercup]

The 5mm difference between bowl without float immersed, and level with float immersed, is explained by Archimedes. Eureka!

 

[Buttercup]

Have you cleaned the emulsion tubes and all the little holes in them?

 

[Buttercup]

With the carby fully assembled and on the engine, if you take out one of the plugs, #53 in the pic I posted.
You could attach a clear tube, bent upward as a level sight tube.
Then run the engine and watch the level under a variety of rpm conditions.
It should stay constant..... ish.

 

[Greenpeace]

Have you cleaned the emulsion tubes and all the little holes in them?View attachment 138460

I did mention that a number of posts back.

To me that fuel level in the photo (with the ruler in the float chamber) even without the float in it looks way, way too low. I would of thought somewhere up around the 15mm mark on the ruler (as it sits in the photo) would be about right. If the float levels way to low the emulsion tubes won't have enough fuel to emulsify, the symptoms would be the same as if the tubes themselves are obstructed. This would provide driving symptoms in the line with your description.

Sven is it any better with a bit of choke? If it is you'll know you've got a lean issue and most likely a blockage somewhere.
Did you give it 2 or 3K revs and quickly seal the carby throat with the palm of you hand? Repeat a couple of times, that will often clear a restriction in a carby's galleyways.

I'd fix that float level first. Ignore the paper template settings and bend the tab until the fuel level is around the 15mm from the gasket face. That level in the picture is nowhere near right.

 

[Buttercup]

Yes, my first reaction was that its too low.
I do have a 24/32 DDC on a running car.
I'll go and..... take my own advice..... And fit a sight tube into one of the bowl plugs.

And report.

 

[Greenpeace]

Sven if you remove an emulsion tube, do some measurements and work out how far down the TOP hole is in this tube is when it's screwed in place; the fuel level should be slightly higher than the TOP hole when the float is in the chamber.

 

[bleudanube]

EUREKA INDEED…!!!! It’s ALIVE..!!!!

Finally got the bastard running and driving. And it was (as everyone suspected and is 9 out of 10 times the case). ELECTRICAL

My new coil is faulty! Bugger me, who would have thought… top Super Cheap Auto quality . I shoved the good old Bosch one back in based on a hunch and voila - she is running! And running well for that matter!

Idling like a dream, accelerating like an escargot, smooth in third gear around town at 60-80klm/hr.

Fantastic! What a relief after the days and days of hunting for problems.

Beer time !

Thanks you all for your suggestions and support. It was doing my head in. Phew…

Now onto the remaining issues: 7-piston pump is weeping a tad, exhaust joins need sealing better, the bonnet doesn’t want to align on the drivers side, fuel flap alignment is still out, wheel alignment to be done…. All simple stuff!!!

Time for another drive tomorrow!

PS: you are right Bob - overlooked good old Archimedes … doh! Found the 5mm…

 

[Buttercup]

Ok.......
The thread of the plug is 8x1.
So i drilled through a short 8x1 bolt and cut the head off, then fitted a bit of 5/16" tube.
With the engine idling the fuel level is 18mm below the gasket.

At medium high revs.....
With the tube open it drops a few mm cos the air pressure over the bowl reduces with engine vacuum.
If i put my finger over the end of the tube, so the air pressure stabilizes..... it only drops about 1mm below the 18, at revs.

 

[Buttercup]

Well that's an excellent result!

My post above is (probably) not required, however it might help someone else to do a quick float check without taking the top off the carby.

 

[Buttercup]

EUREKA INDEED…!!!! It’s ALIVE..!!!!

Finally got the bastard running and driving. And it was (as everyone suspected and is 9 out of 10 times the case). ELECTRICAL

My new coil is faulty! Bugger me, who would have thought… top Super Cheap Auto quality . I shoved the good old Bosch one back in based on a hunch and voila - she is running! And running well for that matter!

Idling like a dream, accelerating like an escargot, smooth in third gear around town at 60-80klm/hr.

Fantastic! What a relief after the days and days of hunting for problems.

Beer time !

Thanks you all for your suggestions and support. It was doing my head in. Phew…

Now onto the remaining issues: 7-piston pump is weeping a tad, exhaust joins need sealing better, the bonnet doesn’t want to align on the drivers side, fuel flap alignment is still out, wheel alignment to be done…. All simple stuff!!!

Time for another drive tomorrow!

PS: you are right Bob - overlooked good old Archimedes … doh! Found the 5mm…

Is the pump leak at the shaft?
It could take up as the seal face settles in.
Assemble exhaust joints with grease!
It helps the clamps to pull everything into place nice and tight, then it burns off.

Before adjusting the bonnet catch pins, double check that the front wings are really in the right place, both side to side and fore/aft. Are the rubbers on the rear face new? They will settle and expand a little then the wing can go back a bit more. If so you then need to decide if you should adjust them forwards again, by putting washers between the rubbers and the wing mounts. Or leave them rearward and adjust the bonnet catch pins.

Wheel alignment...... I use the string method.
With the car standing on smooth soft ground, I bang in 4 wooden pegs (say 40x40x 450 long) with about 300mm out of the ground. 2 pegs about 1m behind the car, and 2.00m apart.
The other 2 pegs a couple of m in front of the car, and also 2.00m apart.
Then hammer a nail halfway into the top of each peg. Check the width apart.
Run a string along each side of the car, level with the wheel centres.
From these 2 parallel lines you can measure, from the sting to the rim bread edges to check the toe in, without grovelling under the car.
You could setup something similar in the workshop with 4 heavy stands that won't move with the string tension, or maybe use the workbench at one end.......

 

[Greenpeace]

My new coil is faulty! Bugger me, who would have thought… top Super Cheap Auto quality . I shoved the good old Bosch one back in based on a hunch and voila - she is running! And running well for that matter!

That's pretty unlucky with the coil, I assume it's a Calibre one if it's from Supercheap? All their coil products seem to get 5 star ratings.

I think it's I'd still be lifting that float level, as Buttercup demonstrated his fuel level sits 18mm from the gasket face.
Yours is pretty low, might still cause running problems in steep terrain.

Good that it's running well.

 

[Buttercup]

That's pretty unlucky with the coil, I assume it's a Calibre one if it's from Supercheap? All their coil products seem to get 5 star ratings.

I think it's I'd still be lifting that float level, as Buttercup demonstrated his fuel level sits 18mm from the gasket face.
Yours is pretty low, might still cause running problems in steep terrain.

Good that it's running well.

It doesn't mean that mine is right!
But it is a method of checking the actual level on carbies that have bowl plugs.

 

[Greenpeace]

It doesn't mean that mine is right!
But it is a method of checking the actual level on carbies that have bowl plugs.

Yes but yours runs fine at that level under all conditions?
Generally when you pull the top off a carby, even one you are not familiar with the expectation is that the fuel level will be around 2/3s of the way up the float bowl.
Sven's in the photo looks like it's only about1/3 of the way up?

 

[schlitzaugen]

I was going to say your problem sounds electrical and I was going to say check the coil (because that was the only thing you didn't check already given it was new) and the wires themselves again. In fact I was going to suggest you take the car to a dyno where they can run it as it would on the road so you can put some load on the engine and run the timing light test there. This is because you can not run it under load in your garage and revving it up with no load is not the same thing. The coil can be absolutely fine under no load at any RPM but once the circuit is loaded and the coil has to work hard it starts to break down. This points to an insulation breakdown, your coil is leaking current between windings.

I also thought when posting my post back with the timing gun to suggest you do the test whilst driving the car with a friend in the passenger seat who could trigger the gun and see the quality of spark live so to speak. Again for the same reason of having the engine under load. I have done this with my own car by myself and I am now convinced a lot of electrical faults are misdiagnosed because the test under load is difficult to perform. I do have my timing light rigged now so I can perform these tests (clamp on coil wire, clamp on individual spark plug wires) whilst driving much easier. This is also a good test to run when you change plugs or when you change gaps, wires, etc., but again, you need to be driving the car and giving it hell. I think (and have done it myself) a lot of fueling issues are again misdiagnosed when in fact they are ignition issues. You need to run it under load with your timing gun hooked up and you'll see.

New things are no longer a guarantee of quality and the onus is on you these days to check that everything is actually good before you give it the tick and slap it on your engine. New cars included. Rough, but that's the way it is. In fact I have had a brand new Bosch coil from a reputable supplier that gave me only hell until I binned it and replaced it with a s/h (still Bosch) I had on my shelves. Don't want to mention how many times I took the entire intake including the carby apart for no reason just because I didn't suspect the brand new coil.

These days I have a test bench of sorts for new parts, I put them on my lathe and there I can vary the RPM, I can vary the gaps, everything I can to see how things go before I put them on the car. This is very convenient for electrical diagnosis.

Just to conclude, there's a video on youtube with some guy who has a Ferrari with a misterious problem. No power when going around RH corners. He has an entire series about it. Even took it to Tyrell's workshop (has a video about it) and the fault could not be found. Money, money, money. In the end he invested in some gizmos that plug into the sparkplugs themselves and glow at each spark event exactly like the timing gun. He rigged a camera inside the engine bay to shoot what was happening because he couldn't see it live. Low and behold, when going around corners an entire bank is not firing. Funnily enough, it was a faulty brand new coil (german like mine, ha!).

With my method you don't need any gizmo, and you see it live. Simple, cheap, effective. I like that.

Here it is:

 

[fritzelhund]

Sven,
We share your relief even in far away locked out Queensland.

 

[deesse]

Hi Sven, pleased to hear you found the problem. I knew you would.
The safari is looking beautiful and I can't wait to see it.
cheers Tony

 

[bleudanube]

Hi Sven, pleased to hear you found the problem. I knew you would.
The safari is looking beautiful and I can't wait to see it.
cheers Tony

Thanks Tony - very relieved and I already took it through its paces today with a 100klm round trip to Lee’s place and the peninsula… ran like a dream! No major issues encountered!

The ladies loved the ride. Spacious, soft seats, wafty suspension… what’s not to like

A bit of a fuel whiff after filling up with 30L of petrol in left hand corners and uphill, maybe one of the pipe joins or breather lines isn’t sealing 100% - shouldn’t be hard to find.

I have no idea how a fully loaded Safari, with 7 people and luggage pulling a caravan could climb French mountain passes . They would have had to be in first gear… 80hp is pretty gutless, but good fun nonetheless. I even took her on the motorway at 105kph… not sure how much more she will have in her, maybe 110-115? What speed did these things reach in its heydays? 120 maybe?

Anyway, an excellent result for a first proper shake down run!

Sven

 

[schlitzaugen]

Well done.

Give it hell so if anything is wrong it fails now rather than later when you don't expect it.

I would strongly encourage you to go to a 32/36 DGV for a cheap power upgrade. You'll never look back.

I might have missed it but is that a 5 speed 'box? If not, can you get a 5 speed 'box for these things? If yes, do it.

 

[Hotrodelectric]

Well done.

Give it hell so if anything is wrong it fails now rather than later when you don't expect it.

I would strongly encourage you to go to a 32/36 DGV for a cheap power upgrade. You'll never look back.

I might have missed it but is that a 5 speed 'box? If not, can you get a 5 speed 'box for these things? If yes, do it.

That won't be a 5 speed. Those didn't show up until the latter 1/2 of '68, well after the introduction of the "short stroke" motors. I don't think they readily fit the "long stroke" 1900.