Ignition Modules

Anything can fail from heat stress, the space shuttle and yourself included.

Not good enough an explanation.

Hall effect sensors are used in some of the most aggressive environments and they either work or not. Usually very reliable.
 
I have been told that they can fail from heat stress.

My guess is that the IGBT fails in these devices, most likely a voltage spike from the back EMF from the coil after heat has weakened the electronics.

It's true that back EMF may be a culprit but my experience usually finds the Transistor (IGBT) or Ignitor modules cooked because of insufficient heat transfer after someone dismantled it from heatsink backing plate and reassembled without using fresh heat sink compound.
The TFI module on the Ford Falcon would repeatedly fail if backing plate was not cleaned properly as shown in this article on Hall effect dizzies.
As for the Pertronix units, the hearsay they suffer heat stress I think is far outweighed by the number of positive never had a problem with them reponses.

 
You people sure that it would not be better to leave the OP's ignition standard? Look at all the problems listed above that these new fangled electronics may cause.
By the way, have I told you that my 504 Ti still has standard ignition? 49 years old 360,000km! Has had probably 5 new sets of points one condensor and the original coil replaced. (y)
 
My guess is that the IGBT fails in these devices, most likely a voltage spike from the back EMF from the coil after heat has weakened the electronics.

The Pertronix ignitor (at least the one I ma talking about) is just a Hall effect sensor reading a permanent magnet stuck on the dizzy shaft. No other electronics.

Like this one:


You can see the doodad with the red and black wires coming out of it where the sensor is encapsulated probably in some sort of epoxy.
 
Hi.

I located a very interesting analytical document in the below link. The author discus's the difference between Kettering - Magnetic Discharge Ignition (MDI) and Capacitor Discharge Ignition (CDI) systems.

I recommend that you go directly to page 59 and read the summery between MDI & CDI and also the discussion of different coil types, and also spark energy. A few points of interest from the document:
  • In a MDI system the energy is stored as magnetic energy in the coil.
  • In a CDI system the energy is stored as electrical energy in the capacitor.
  • Using MDI coils marketed as "high voltage" often deliver less spark energy.
  • A CDI will provide 1.6 times the spark energy using a "transformer" coil eg GT40T over a standard iron core GT40 MDI coil.
  • The MSD 6A is not as good as a Delta MARK TEN B CDI system, that the author has modified for his Triumph.
  • Some CDI's are not multiple spark.
  • High Energy Ignition systems still use the MDI approach, but are not as good as a optimised CDI system for spark energy.

Cheers
 
M&W Pro-10E is still the product to buy. Tell me why otherwise.
 
Unless the car is a performance car of some sort ..... Points are so simple and reliable. There is no way I'd be removing them. the petronix and 123's seem to have quite a few issues with reliability if you read forums.... Though are apparently great while they work. I like the idea of 123 as you can carry a set of points in the glovebox, that way when it dies, you aren't stranded :)

Having said that, last year on the youtube channel "uncle tonys garage".... He was finding points were so badly made these days they were failing within 1000miles. the rubbing block was wearing away, or the points material was so poor it burnt away :eek:

seeya,
shane L.
 
Unless the car is a performance car of some sort ..... Points are so simple and reliable. There is no way I'd be removing them.
"The standard points and ignition coil must be retained and the module triggered off that.", said the OP.
Exactly why you'd use an M&W Pro-10E. It's designed to be triggered off points.
 
I've never had too much drama with points triggered coil ignition, even in performance applications. My twin supercharged small block Chrysler had a 310 degree solid lifter cam, 9 to 1 static comp, 12 psi of boost and a 150 shot of nitrous, ie; a pretty f#cking hostile environment for a spark plug to work in. I just had a stock recurved Bosch points distributor and twin GT40 coils with a siamesed coil wire. I didn't run the twin coils for extra spark, I ran two for redundancy purposes. It ran 4 electric pumps, two pushers in the boot with the fuel cell, and two booster pumps under the bonnet, one a boost referenced high pressure pump for the carby, and a 7 psi one feeding the wet nitrous kit.
This thing sounded and went like something the devil would drive, yet I never had one ignition/misfire/fouling problem.
I ran the same ignition setup on my GM blown V8 Rover too. 10.5 static comp, 10 psi of boost and a 100 HP wet nitrous shot. No spark issues there either.
These were both street and strip driven, so spent their fair share of time idling at the traffic lights and putt putting through town.
Maybe I was just lucky.🤔
 
The Pertronix ignitor (at least the one I ma talking about) is just a Hall effect sensor reading a permanent magnet stuck on the dizzy shaft. No other electronics.

Like this one:


You can see the doodad with the red and black wires coming out of it where the sensor is encapsulated probably in some sort of epoxy.
The electronics are inside that little plastic encapsulation, I have never busted one open but guessing there is an IGBT inside to do the switching.
 
"The standard points and ignition coil must be retained and the module triggered off that.", said the OP.
Exactly why you'd use an M&W Pro-10E. It's designed to be triggered off points.

I admit when running a hot 807 in a road car with one heat range hotter (NGK7) than recommended for the Gordini NGK8s that if i puddled around in traffic and then jumped on the throttle it would miss for 5 or more seconds until it cleared. With my home built points triggered CDI I had no problems with this again. On the track the 7s still had good colour, so I wouldn't consider them too hot.

I have also found some advantage with using the Iridium plugs also, and run them in everything, being particularly good in old bikes with magenetos that make less spark at kicking speeds.
 
Hi.

This topic got me interested to refresh and increase my understanding of the various approaches for automotive ignition systems, so the more I read the more I learnt and the more I realised that there could be some confusion on different systems. So I have prepared the below document that simply categorises and offers some limited comments on the different systems. It is not intended to comprehensive and complete. Hope it is of some assistance.

The below summery is heavily sourced from the below links and also various ignition manufacturers web pages.
http://tr4a.weebly.com/uploads/2/1/..._ignition_vs_magnetic_discharge_ignition..pdf

Cheers.

Kettering – Magnetic Discharge Ignition (MDI)

Contact Points triggered.

Energy stored as magnetic energy in the coil.

Needs to have a traditional induction primary and secondary coils wound on an iron core. Typically oil filled.

Typical turn ratio of 1:80

This system tends to have higher resistance coils to limit the maximum switching current load to around 4-5A on the points. This then self-limits the maximum spark energy output.
Pros
Adequate for many decades.

Easily fixed.

Cons
Contact points and rubbing block erosion and wear.

Condenser can be faulty.

Lose 1/3rd of spark energy in air gap between rotor and distributor cap – this is a function of the rotor/distributor cap and not the MDI.

Fixed dwell period:

At low RPM, has too much dwell and saturation overheats coil.

Runs out of spark energy at higher RPM particularly on 6 & 8 cyl engines.
Improvements
Coil secondary windings get hot, and reduce spark energy by 18%. So remote mount the coil to ensure it is cool.

Using higher ratio primary to secondary coil windings can provide higher secondary voltages, but will deliver lower spark energy due to the additional resistance in the windings.

With limited spark energy, the approach should be to reduce losses. So attention to HT system, eg rotor buttons, caps, HT wires, clean spark plug insulators etc.

Condenser is an important component of the MDI, so ensure it has no faults.

Twin point distributors can mechanically increase the dwell period, for increased spark energy.
Kettering – Magnetic Discharge Ignition (MDI)

Inductive or Hall Effect trigger replacement for contact points, Including Solid State switching.

Typical products:
Pertronix Ignitor
Lumenition standard Optronic
Magnetronic
Gammatronix
SherryBerg
Pros.

Contact points replaced by a trigger so removes the maintenance of points / condensers.

Solid state switching can be more reliable than contact points.
Does not necessarily improve the spark energy from the coil.

Same as above.
Kettering – Magnetic Discharge Ignition (MDI)

Dwell Angle control.

This has two approaches.

Simple has standard dwell at low RPM, with extended dwell beyond a higher RPM switching point.

High Energy Ignition (HEI)
The sophisticated approach has closed loop control for coil saturation by modulating the dwell angle. This is achieved by monitoring the frequency of the firing impulse trigger circuit for dwell modulation, and also monitoring and limiting of current flow. These require a low resistance coil.

Typical products:
123 Ignition
Lumenition Performance Optronic
Pertronix Ignitor II
Pertronix Ignitor III
GM HEI Bosch modules.
Bosch BIM024 etc.
Pros.

Standard or reduced dwell at lower RPM, with resultant, less heating of coil.

Increases dwell at higher RPM, with slightly improved spark energy output with standard coils.

Sophisticated versions use low resistance coils to increase maximum current flow, with resultant increased maximum spark energy.

Cons
Adds complexity
Improvements

Some can handle higher primary currents and thus use lower resistance ignition coils for higher spark energy output. The dwell time is monitored and controlled to limit current and consequent heating based on triggering frequency.
Capacitor Discharge Ignition (CDI)

Energy is stored in the capacitor.

Can utilise different triggers.

Using a transformer coil (with a continuous iron core) provides 1.63 increased spark energy over traditional induction coil.

Typical turn ratio of 1:53

Typical products:
MSD 6A
M&W Pro 10E
Pertronix Second Strike™ Ignition Box
Pros.
Coils run cooler.

Can provide significantly higher spark energy

Cons.
Marketing typically refers to the energy stored in the capacitor with high numbers. But usually only 28% of this energy is converted to spark energy at the spark plug via a transformer coil. With standard induction coils the transfer percentage is only 16%. Hence the actual spark energy is similar to a MDI system.

Some CDIs only have single polarity discharge eg MSD 6A
CDI can have much shorter spark duration, but higher amperage spark.
 
I guess the biggest issue with running contacts is how worn are the cam lobes in the distributor plus, is the mech advance set up and working. Much time and money is lost if the contacts are opening at different degrees to each other. Some old dissies have made it through without wear uneven wear on each lobe, but not many. Not uncommon for 8 btdc on 1 and 6 btdc on 4.
My suggestion is to check each cylinder spark at idle and at revs to make sure the thing is actually firing at the correct timing on all pots. I still have a distributor graph and can bench test if you want. Pertronix work great if you commit to fitting it properly and setting the dist graph up. Also with carbs, I can tell you a big fat electronic controlled spark every time at crank idle over run changes the whole driving feel of the engine. A Buick 1934 I fitted pertronix 6 volt with Pert coil, not only ran perfectly it stopped burning oil as now the spark was firing accurately every time. ( my 2 cents)
 
I just remembered a terrific result on a renault 5 turbo, I did. Megajolt system gave me a 3 d ignition ability. Man did that change the engine. Blow through single throat carb on 1500cc. I was a very quick little think and started so easily cold it needed no choke to idle cold either! That would spark that little engine up. You could fit a pickup in the dissie and lock the advance up. I can help with the graphing too as I still have the files from the job.
 
Hi.

I am aware that the op wants to retain the original distributor and Mech taco drive etc so the following is not suitable for his application.

The below is what I would consider the ultimate retrofit ignition upgrade for older engines.

I was wondering why there are not more Coil On Plug (COP) retrofit kits. The Renault engines have a nice vertical tube to access the spark plug which would accommodate a COP nicely. A crank trigger and TDC for Cyl 1 would be needed and a some electronics that would allow a customisable ignition advance map, dwell control and drivers for each discrete COP.

This would eliminate the problems with existing distributors variability of each cylinders relative timing and distribution losses of HT energy via rotor button, cap and HT leads and would deliver perfectly timed spark to each spark plug.

This would be a relatively easy option for existing players in the ignition industry to develop and extend existing hardware and repurpose existing trigger, dwell control and solid state coil switching electronic circuits and also use existing brand names and distribution channels for marketing.

Just a thought.

Cheers.
 
Hi Whippet, I have a contact who does make such a control unit which will do cop although wasted spark works great too. Check out Mr Nick Hay's site. He does a simulator board to test your wiring before fitting. All sorts of magic stuff. I have his pro and basic to fit to 2 of my next projects.


 
The spark timing was correct on 2 of the 8 cylinders, the others retard timing at different angles. Took me 12 months to convince the owner, unless we get a new dist lobe we cannot get it smooth. To get it running OK, the spark static was advanced, had been for years before me so, he was happy at the time. Bear in mind the engine may have had 1 or 2 overhauls in the previous 84 years! Once all cylinders matched I had it running at 4 btdc which reduced the detonation effects of too much spark advance. We did oil every 1000km, Pen HPR mineral. She stopped oil smoke and burning oil within the first 1000km. Amazed we were. Same oil, just better spark timing and spark duration.
 
H'mmm.

I am not convinced of the cause and effect of this statement.

Cheers.
If the flame front does not fill the chamber to create positive pressure at the right time after the intake valve is shut, the vacuum in the cylinder can suck oil up past the piston in the combustion chamber.
 
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