Ignition Modules

[Steve K]

Any ideas out there?
I have some prerequisites.
The standard points and ignition coil must be retained and the module triggered off that.
In case of the module failing (which happens) a simple wiring re-connection reverts to points.
The original dizzy runs a cable drive to the tachometer. Originality counts here.
We are dealing with twin Webers, hot cams and cold spark plugs (R12 Gordini, Alpine etc)
It is a pain in the bum starting without fouling, substituting hot plugs etc so I need a very
healthy spark at all times to overcome all this..
Recent experiences fellas?

 

[geckoeng]

Steve,
First thing I recommend is a 123-Tune distributor, with a 123 Coil or a Bosch "Blue Coil". Bullet Proof. And use normal heat range R16TS plugs.

 

[AlexB]

Any ideas out there?
I have some prerequisites.
The standard points and ignition coil must be retained and the module triggered off that.
In case of the module failing (which happens) a simple wiring re-connection reverts to points.
The original dizzy runs a cable drive to the tachometer. Originality counts here.
We are dealing with twin Webers, hot cams and cold spark plugs (R12 Gordini, Alpine etc)
It is a pain in the bum starting without fouling, substituting hot plugs etc so I need a very
healthy spark at all times to overcome all this..
Recent experiences fellas?

Do the standard points really need to be retained?
I used Pertronix in the early 80's so it's almost a 'period accessory'

For sale brand new Petronix ignitor kit

Brand new Petronix ignitor kit. Never used. $90 plus post.

www.aussiefrogs.com

 

[Greenpeace]

Sounds like you want an old school universal transistorised ignition kit. I don't know if anyone still makes them? My DS has one on it. It has a bypass switch built into the side of the unit. I've had others in the past, but they didn't have the bypass switch.
Have you checked the voltage at the coil when cranking, or tried a wire direct from the + battery terminal to the + coil terminal to see if it improves starting/cold running? If it does just fit a relay for the coil with the relay's + feed wire coming straiģht off the battery.
If the coil's voltage is low fitting a transistorised ignition won't make any difference.

 

[Aln]

40 years ago when I was doing Electronics at TAFE I designed and built a Capacitor Discharge Ignition (CDI) which I used on my R16 powered R8 and and my R15. Both of these cars had modded engines with Webers. Dick Smith used to sell a CDI kit as well.

With the CDI which was triggered by standard points and used a standard coil, the spark would easily jump 25mm which kept the plugs clean when messing around at low speeds. In testing the spark would come out the output of the coil and onto one of the side terminals if there were no HV lead attached. I had made a mod on the second one that if it failed the plug on top just had to be moved to another hole on the CDI unit and would be back to standard ignition. This only happened twice, both times because the CDI unit had been pressure washed by panel shops, filling it with water and blew the main switching SCR.

Only the rubbing block would wear eventually on the points, the lack of gap didn't affect the CDI, only when down to maybe 3 thou. the points themselves only switched 250mA, so the contacts would not burn at all.

 

[jaahn]

40 years ago when I was doing Electronics at TAFE I designed and built a Capacitor Discharge Ignition (CDI) which I used on my R16 powered R8 and and my R15. Both of these cars had modded engines with Webers. Dick Smith used to sell a CDI kit as well.

With the CDI which was triggered by standard points and used a standard coil, the spark would easily jump 25mm which kept the plugs clean when messing around at low speeds. In testing the spark would come out the output of the coil and onto one of the side terminals if there were no HV lead attached. I had made a mod on the second one that if it failed the plug on top just had to be moved to another hole on the CDI unit and would be back to standard ignition. This only happened twice, both times because the CDI unit had been pressure washed by panel shops, filling it with water and blew the main switching SCR.

Only the rubbing block would wear eventually on the points, the lack of gap didn't affect the CDI, only when down to maybe 3 thou. the points themselves only switched 250mA, so the contacts would not burn at all.

Yes I also built a DIY unit for a points ignition a lot of years ago. I don't think it was CDI just transistorised by Electronics Aust. I think CDI was out of favour then because of the over load problems with too much spark voltage for standard ignition designs.
I used it on various vehicles and some 10 years back gave it to a mate to fit to an old Celica he did up and then passed to a nephew. It never failed, even with my soldering expertise and was working OK when last heard of. If it did fail, you just had to wire the coil direct to the dissy terminal direct and bypass the grey box. I tested that but it was never needed.
I did have that over voltage problem on a Ford 6cyl in a Jeep truck. It had a problem with missing a lot when I got it. It turned out to be running a coil designed for a reduced voltage ~6V running, but was running on full 14V. This was shorting in the dissy cap and rotor arm because they could not take it. A resistor might have fixed it better but I just fitted a normal 12v style coil and new cap and rotor.
Jaahn

 

[Aln]

I just used a standard Bosch 12V coil, never having a coil fail in maybe 20 years of use. The voltage is very high, but the length of time of the spark is short, so coil does not overheat, but yes you might expect there to be an insulation breakdown given the greater voltage. When playing with it after building it, the spark was able to go through the 25mm ply on the bench.

There was talk about the duration of spark on CDIs being too short, but in my mind once the mixture has been ignited there is no need to still have an arc. I think I worked out that at the frequency it ran at it would effectively drive a V12 at 16000 rpm.

 

[PeterT]

Any ideas out there?
I have some prerequisites.
The standard points and ignition coil must be retained and the module triggered off that.

In my mind, there is only clear choice, the locally designed and manufactured M&W Pro-10E CDI. Maybe the Pro-10EL if you also want a rev limiter. I've had Pro-14 on my race 205 since 2006.

M&W Ignitions was formed in 1996 with the goal of being the number one performance ignition system supplier in Australia - Inductive Ignition Systems

M&W Ignitions s the world premiere builder of quality high energy ignition systems. All our products are proudly asembled in Australia using the best Automotive and Mil-Spec components and processes.

www.mwignitions.com

Your points will last forever, as the load decreases from amps to milliamps. Just don't forget to grease the rubbing block.

 

[renault8&10]

I had a local business here in Sydney help me build a system using a Ford Bosch DIMM module, readily available from auto spares shops. It uses the standard points, coil etc (although you can use a higher output coil if desired). The benefit is it uses the points just as the trigger so lowers the current across the points to prevent burnout and other performance related issues with points. You’d have to chat with him as to whether it would solve your other issues. He mills an aluminium heat sink that the module mounts to. Maybe worth talking to him - David is his name.

I don’t know if he has a website, but here is a link to his Facebook page

Vintage Racing Developments

Vintage Racing Developments, Sydney, Australia. 1,192 likes · 3 talking about this · 2 were here. Bespoke distributor ignition solutions for historic racing cars. Engine build and modification...

www.facebook.com

 

[renault8&10]

You can see the module in the bottom RH corner of the pic. I normally bolt it on the inside of the radiator panel using existing bolts.

 

[Greenpeace]

If you look at the American high performance V8 engines produced throughout the '60s, they often had very radical cam timing, were often way over carburettored (for homologation), and ran some very high compression ratios. Yet they all satisfactorily used points and coil ignition? On a 4 cylinder these components are only doing half the work that they are on a V8.
I've built plenty of high performance engines, 4, 6 and 8 cylinder and in most instances successfully ran a standard (remapped) distributor with quality, points, coil, leads and plugs.
The Reliant is 11 to 1 static CR with 10 psi of boost from a small Roots supercharger, the single HS6 SU is set on the fat side with a 12.5 AFR on 98 ULP.. It has never fouled a plug once, and has had the same set of iridium, multi ground strap, Bosch plugs in it for over 5 years. It runs 8 more degrees of static advance than what a standard engine does, but only has 1/2 the degrees of centrifugal advance in the distributor curve (due to the higher cylinder pressures from the boost).
The photo is the business end of the Reliant, as I said, it does run on the rich side.
I could be wrong, but I think if all your standard ignition components are in fine fettle (and receiving the correct voltage) fitting additional components is just going to be (maybe) masking another problem?
MSD with their multi spark CDI systems state "that if all the standard ignition components are performing satisfactorily there will be no increase in HP". The only thing they do say is you may get easier starting. Interestingly the MSD's multispark function reverts to a single spark at 3000 rpm as there simply isn't enough of an ignition window to fire more than one spark over this engine speed.

 

[PeterT]

I had a GQ Patrol ‘90 which was carby & points. I fitted an MSD6A which made an enormous difference from idle to 2500.

 

[jaahn]

Well as an older person who was bought up in the old days of points and stuff, I could say generally that changing over to electronic ignitions reduced the problems by half for normal motoring and also improved starting in poor conditions by an even greater percentage.

When I was in the garage and I woke up and it was raining I would hoof it down to work and load up the rack of points and some plugs into the ute and wait for the first call. So that was the good ol'days of points ign. So I built the electronic ign unit when Electronics Aust bought one out.

I guess that the pollution requirements did drive the electronic ignitions. Cars had to be able to run without adjustments for some minimum time and the points would not be good enough. I would agree that the points system worked OK when correct but the electronics stay as good forever possibly.
Jaahn

 

[Greenpeace]

I had a GQ Patrol ‘90 which was carby & points. I fitted an MSD6A which made an enormous difference from idle to 2500.

The MSDs are good at masking other shortfalls, I'd dare say if your Patrol had been fuel injected you probably would have barely noticed a thing (assuming the points ignition was tip top)?
Carbies and modern fuels don't gel so well, although I'm guessing at least the OP wont be trying to run his Renault on E10?

 

[PeterT]

Correct. Second Patrol was FI and didn’t need a thing. That’s the whole point of what I’m trying to say for the OP. A CDI will help clean up the poor mixtures from carbs and reversion from big cams at low revs.

 

[Greenpeace]

Correct. Second Patrol was FI and didn’t need a thing. That’s the whole point of what I’m trying to say for the OP. A CDI will help clean up the poor mixtures from carbs and reversion from big cams at low revs.

Hmmmm, be interesting what the full ignition package is on the OP's Renault?
EFI cars generally have CDI ignition to have the energy (to pass through the resistor plug leads/ caps or resistor spark plugs) needed to prevent the ignition pulses interfering with the electronics of the EFI, sort of a vicious circle.
To maximise a points ignition's capability, one needs to run solid copper HT leads (kept as short as possible) and non resistor spark plugs and plug caps.
I always find it amusing when I see a vintage car fitted with an add on ignition "booster/upgrade" (like is being discussed) running resistance silicone HT leads or resistor plug caps.
Sort of like fitting a bigger exhaust then shoving a potato in it.
But I guess if listening to the radio on a carburettored car (while the engine is running) is a "necessity", copper HT wires with non resistor plugs and plug caps are not an option.

 

[renault8&10]

If it is even a Renault. Could be a Renault engined variant of something else.

 

[Beano]

So I built the electronic ign unit when Electronics Aust bought one out.

I guess that the pollution requirements did drive the electronic ignitions. Cars had to be able to run without adjustments for some minimum time and the points would not be good enough. I would agree that the points system worked OK when correct but the electronics stay as good forever possibly.
Jaahn

Crikey dude....what year would that have been in ?

After having a few 504s and occasionally having both good and bad runs of luck with points, I bought a 1983 505 with points.
After a couple of years I fitted an electronic ignition out of an '85 model and breathed a HUGE sigh of relief. It stayed perfectly in tune for the next 7 years till I sold it.

 

[jaahn]

Just a silly bit of triva sprang to mind about a quirk of points ignitions on Mcullock chainsaw motors on karts in the 60-70s.
It was common to reduce the points spring tension so the points stayed open at some high revs and the ign triggered just by the speed of the magnet past the coil. Running maverick it was called. The timing thus would be advanced by suitable adjustment of the key position. Above my pay grade in those days.
Jaahn

 

[bazzamac]

Hey Steve. Are you aiming for easier, quick start, ease of tuning and reliability? Just wondering whether you have thought about electronic fuel injection but using Jenvey Heritage carbies to maintain original look?