C4 Grand Picasso engine Removal and Swap

[MrMcGoog123]

Hi Guys, thanks so much for all the input, its great to have.. i can almost imagine we are hanging around in my shed with Beverage of choice commiserating with me!.. i feel encouraged, however, even without beer and company, so here is the update..
Tonight, i have gotten as far as i think i want and need to go, have removed remainder of camshaft covers, including fuel and vacuum pumps, EGR tube, timing chain tensioner, chain, camshafts, and rockers, such as they are..

The score is 8 all; for the rockers, ie 8 still good, and 8 in various stages of fracture, 2 completely severed.

The inlet camshaft is solid, so no chance of rotated lobes here, i am however left feeling hollow by the exhaust camshaft, which is well ..hollow and of composite construction..
I appear to have 4 sets of lobes facing the 4 quarters of the compass, which seems reasonable to me, but how can i check this accurately enough to know whether or not i need to buy a new camshaft?.. and what do you all think of the wear on these lobes?

I used a straight edge and a caliper to compare the valve height with each other, and each of the inlet and exhaust sets of valves showed identical height, which i am going to take as news that i do not have any bent and stuck valves. the rockers appear to have all torn/fractured cleanly, i am confident i have all pieces safely removed..

so, thanks again froggers, feeling better about getting this girl back on the road with the bits she was born with, i was not worried about the Electrical ecu side of things, the present ecu's will be just fine, i would have been keeping all electrical sensors, plugs, looms and injectors from the current engine, afaik this means the car would be completely unaware that anything had happened between battery disconnection and reconnection..
So it looks like i might be able to get away with:

Timing belt kit (incl WP)
Timing chain and tensioner (maybe?)
inlet manifold gasket set
Correct rtv for camshaft cover seal
set of rockers (all 16)
lifters (while i'm there)
Front crank seal
fluids and filters

many, many layers of skin off my knuckles
what am i missing?
Cheers Ben

 

[seasink]

Part of the handbook (C5 version), small enough to fit here. Pardon the French, but it is easily translated online.

 

[Steven King]

Textbook demonstration of the interference principle !

 

[seasink]

Another handbook excerpt (C4 RHR) - torques. PDF illustrations can be zoomed for clarity.

 

[seasink]

I should have said - note the part about proud pistons and head gaskets, should the head come off.. I hope it doesn't have to.

 

[Whippet]

Hi.

Happy Days. You are going to end up with a nice vehicle.

It appears likely that this engine is very repairable without needing to remove cyl head, pistons etc.

The drive belt is common to both inlet and exhaust camshafts, so I wonder why the only rocker arms that failed were under a single (I assume the inlet?) camshaft.

Due to the mark on the flank of the camshaft lobe, that camshaft will need replacing.

Why are you replacing the hydraulic lash adjusters? Submerge them in a pot of oil, bleed, and do a weighted leak down test. I would save the money on these and spend some on a massage for your lower back!

Cheers.

 

[David S]

The documents seasink posted give you most of what you need for reassembly. It is important to follow the tightening sequence instructions for the camshaft bearing cover and inlet manifold.

Loctite 518 (gasket eliminator- there are alternatives) is suggested to seal the bearing cover when refitting. You need to work reasonably quickly with that so it doesn't go off with the bearing cap not bolted down. It will stay soft for many years in an open tube, but will harden quite quickly when sandwiched between two metal faces. Be sure the bead you lay down will fully seal the oil in or you will be doing the job over again.

For a $700 car, my inner cheapskate would suggest reusing seals and gaskets where you can and dress them with some sealant if possible. The set of 8 rings and a large gasket under the inlet manifold is 0348S3 - reuse or look for these aftermarket (see eBay / try EAI or Dapco or Ford) as they are more than half the cost of the car from Citroen. The fuel pump gasket is 192724 and inexpensive from Citroen. If the pump has been leaking lubricating oil past the spindle seal, you can replace the spindle seal with a generic oil seal from a bearing place. The vacuum pump to head seals are #2 in the diagram. Citroen will have it for about $30:

Strictly, the fuel pipes (#1 1570J4, #3 1570J6 , #4 1570J3) and injector seals are regarded as single use, but you can likely try to reuse the pipes and check carefully for leaks - beware the very high pressures in this fuel system as it could be like putting your finger in front a pressure washer jet! Replace at least the copper seal (#9 was 198143, now 198196 7.3x16x1.5mm) under the injectors. Citroen will have them and so would Ford, or there are aftermarket options. Be careful of fuel leaks on the fuel return hose (#8) as the little o-rings may not seal well once disturbed. Clips (#21) are easily lost.

So long as the cam lobes do not have bits of the case hardening missing (heavy pits) they are probably fine to reuse. On the composite cam, each pair of lobes must point at the same angle and the whole cam covers the 4 points of the compass as you say they do. 1-Exhaust 450mm long, 2-Inlet 430mm long. Turn it over by hand once assembled to be sure there is no interference vs cranking with the starter. Make sure the position of the cam lobes looks sensible after you've connected the cams via the chain and the marks on the sprockets in case the sprocket might have turned - probably unlikely if the lobes haven't moved.

The crankshaft pulley bolt may be coated in Loctite and removing it could be difficult. At such high kms, it's probably been off before and you may find it easier. It is suggested to remove it using a crankshaft locking tool and a torque wrench in reverse to limit the torque to 20daN.m to avoid breaking it and if you plan to reuse the bolt. Try undoing by no more than one turn, retighten and repeat until it moves more easily. You may need heat, which will soften the Loctite. It's probably smart to plan on replacing this bolt regardless if you want to remove it.

 

[jaahn]

My on the cams. How many more Kms are you wanting the engine to go for ?? It should last for quite a few years of normal motoring if you proceed as planned and reuse the cams.
To check the cams for twist etc just lay the two together and with the first cyl lobes up on both. The other cam lobes on both should also just point the same way for each of the cyls.(the inlet stroke just follows the exhaust stroke in all cyls 1342). Note NO 1 is at the flywheel end in French engines.
I would get a fine sharpening stone and run that over any marks or impressions on the lobes till they feel they are not protruding. Be Ok for another few years. You do need to know when to stop replacing parts or the cost gets out of hand. Proceed as David S says unless you find a serious flaw.
This is important "Turn it over by hand once assembled to be sure there is no interference before cranking with the starter" ! Actually applies to any engine really when the timing belt/ gears/ chains have been done, but vital with diesels as there is less clearance!

"The drive belt is common to both inlet and exhaust camshafts, so I wonder why the only rocker arms that failed were under a single (I assume the inlet?) camshaft." I believe the chain connecting the two camshafts can fail by wearing very slack and jumping teeth. But I have no direct experience. Others may like to comment !
Jaahn

 

[seasink]

Since there is much info about these engines on French sites, I searched for broken inlet rockers (linguets) on this engine and found a possibility.

In the case described it wasn't the belt that went out; the chain drive to the inlet sprocket lost timing. All driven rockers were damaged.

 

[Whippet]

"...and initial disassembly, to finding a very worn timing belt missing 14 teeth!.

Hi seasink and jaahn. Based on the above (missing 14 teeth) comment in the initial post, I had assumed that it was the camshaft timing belt that had failed and that would affect both camshafts. I concur that maybe the interconnecting timing chain may have been the real cause of the failures of the rocker arms under the inlet camshaft only.

Cheers

 

[jaahn]

This guy has some interesting info on these Ford Mondeo engines. Seems they use them for taxi work and they can go high MILES but the chains do fail, because the tensioner fails by wearing away. He has a few videos on the same engine problems. Otherwise I have no experience of them and do not know what equivalent Froggie engine it is.
Jaahn (just ignore the first few minutes about the throttle problem !) And then another one with a broken chain.

 

[seasink]

The Mk 5 Mondeo is more recent than the RHR engine.

 

[MrMcGoog123]

Amazing!, you guys rock!, I'm sorry i may have misled you all with my rocker set photo, they were unfortunately not arranged the way they were removed, i only realized about half way through removing them that it would have been very useful to keep them in order.. i was at the time preoccupied and terrified that i would drop any tiny piece down one of the numerous orifices..

There was a definite spread across the cylinders and camshafts.. i think from memory the #1 inlet rockers were broken, but not exhaust, and remember that #3 exhaust were the most broken pair, where i think the inlet rockers were not damaged at all.. it seems like it was actually an abrupt end... maybe only one or two impact events... the belt definitely seems like it was older than dirt!, so I would not be surprised if that was the straw that broke this camel.. the P.O. stated, she was attempting to accelerate, maybe a kick-down?, who knows.

The Camshafts feel very smooth all across the lobes , there is no perceptible marks of any kind i can feel, just the discoloration, the teeth on the cam chain sprockets look perfect with no signs of wear at all, the chain feels pretty good, not too loose and doesn't deflect by much if i hold it horizontally. The chain tensioner friction surface has some reasonable wear grooves however, so i will see what i should do about that.

I have a niggling suspicion that something dastardly might have happened to this car before, as there are scratch marks in the top of the camshaft carrier (head i guess) sealing surface (not scratches, just marks like someone cleaned off RTV) and i haven't cleaned this up yet, also, almost half of the rockers appear newer and cleaner?.. not all of the rollers have wear marks, and some are slightly nosier to spin than others... also the injectors have their cylinder number written in marker on them, would this be the case from factory? seemed a bit messy?

Thanks so much for all the in depth info, the torque settings will be invaluable!, bolt sequences and all that!..
I am slightly concerned about the small fuel return tubing, all appeared to come apart fine, and i didn't lose any of the small clips, but not sure if its the tube or the protective sheath that makes the dry crackling noise, guess i can wait and see, that should be able to be replaced if it does leak.
Next step is clean up, and check and check and check and check the camshafts, thanks for the tips here.. i will align them back in their bearings with the chain keeping them in step and keep rotating them until i am sure either way they are good, or not good.

Purchase price on this amazing machine was only $500 actually, and almost everything else seems completely fine (has a loose/broken rear hatch handle, and a knocking drivers side front strut), its absolutely filthy inside and out, and is covered in stickers of ned kelly, bullet holes and vast steely gashes... i absolutely cant wait to have the car running and move on to getting it pretty again!

Thanks once again for all your help, the sheer amount of things that need to be removed to do this job is VERY daunting, but its going well, i am encouraging myself and feel very encouraged by all of your assistance.. will keep you updated on the status of this rescue!, cheers Ben

 

[Whippet]

Hi MrMcGoog123.

A very interesting project, you are doing a good job, keep going.

I made the mistake of assuming that the rockers were laid out in order, so your comments above explains this, thanks.

I concur with your suspicion of prior repairs may be correct, and the additional evidence is the mode of failure.

I enjoyed watching and listening to the middle English accent of the mechanic in the Steves Taxis garage You Tube, he certainly is very familiar with these engines. In the first linked YT in post #31 at around the 27 to 28 minute mark the mechanic talks about timing the HP fuel pump with the two dots. He comments that if this is not correct it can result in stripping of teeth from the camshaft drive belt. This is exactly what has occurred in your C4, and tends to suggest that whoever had it apart previously was not aware of this requirement. So I suggest that you familiarise yourself with the camshaft timing and also the HP fuel pump timing as illustrated in the YT video.

In the second YT in post #31 at 4:50 minutes, the mechanic checks the wear of the rocker arm where it contacts the end of the valve stem. One of these was very worn, and he replaced it with a serviceable SH rocker. Based on watching these two YT, I would now only replace the eight broken rockers and would reuse the serviceable rockers, and hydraulic lash adjusters.

I tend to agree with David S, and if gaskets are expensive, then consider cleaning them up and applying RTV sealant to reuse them.

Hopefully you have kept your injectors in the order they have been removed, but someone else has previously numbered them for you!

Based on the two YT videos, it seems that the root cause for failure on high mileage (300,000km plus) engines is the cam chain tensioner wearing and then failing, with consequent chain and sprockets damage; so I would be inspecting the tensioner wear carefully and deciding it if is still serviceable.

As others have previously commented you need to familierise yourself with the camshaft timing and the two holes in the camshaft drive pulley. I'm repeating what others have said: after fitting the cam drive belt, turn the engine over at least two complete crankshaft revolutions by hand, to ensure no interference. I would do this prior to fitting the injectors to make it easier.

After a good clean up and fixing the other items, you are going to end up with a great vehicle at a low cost. A pre-emptive, Well Done.

PS: Based on your photograph, I suspect that the indentation mark on the camshaft lobe is due to brinelling, potentially caused by the impact of the rocker at the instant of interference failure? I would run with the comments that jaahn and David S have made, and providing there are no high points protruding above the surrounding surface it may be serviceable for many more km's.

Cheers.

 

[jaahn]

Just a comment about engine failures like this. How long does the engine take to slow to stopped 5 sec, 10 sec, 30 sec if in gear lock up or a manual possibly.
At say 2400 RPM which is 40 revs per second you estimate how many times the broken rockers hit the cam or how they jammed under the cam and were squashed ??? Hmm it would be worth having a camera in there to see it in slow motion.

The VW people used to do an "engine blow" when they had a get together in the good ol'days. I found this one !!
One comment "Fun and good times! The staple of VW events in US" Jaahn

 

[seasink]

A bad scenario, but not quite as bad as that. For the diesel with the AM6 auto, 2400 rpm gives 146 kph in top gear, well over speed limits.

Years ago I was driving a commercial whose transmission locked, so the engine stalled instantly. The skid to a stop was quite hair raising.

 

[Whippet]

Just a comment about engine failures like this. How long does the engine take to slow to stopped 5 sec, 10 sec, 30 sec if in gear lock up or a manual possibly.
At say 2400 RPM which is 40 revs per second you estimate how many times the broken rockers hit the cam or how they jammed under the cam and were squashed ??? Hmm it would be worth having a camera in there to see it in slow motion.

Hi.

Yes thinking a bit more deeply, I agree with your comment, and it would explain the additional brinelling on the camshaft lobe.

Cheers.

PS: Watching that video goes against all I have been trained to achieve, its like watching an animal being bleed to death.

PPS: Thanks for the introduction, I've now watched a few more of Alan Howatt YT videos, some interesting stuff.

 

[MrMcGoog123]

Hi MrMcGoog123.

A very interesting project, you are doing a good job, keep going.

I made the mistake of assuming that the rockers were laid out in order, so your comments above explains this, thanks.

I concur with your suspicion of prior repairs may be correct, and the additional evidence is the mode of failure.

I enjoyed watching and listening to the middle English accent of the mechanic in the Steves Taxis garage You Tube, he certainly is very familiar with these engines. In the first linked YT in post #31 at around the 27 to 28 minute mark the mechanic talks about timing the HP fuel pump with the two dots. He comments that if this is not correct it can result in stripping of teeth from the camshaft drive belt. This is exactly what has occurred in your C4, and tends to suggest that whoever had it apart previously was not aware of this requirement. So I suggest that you familiarise yourself with the camshaft timing and also the HP fuel pump timing as illustrated in the YT video.

In the second YT in post #31 at 4:50 minutes, the mechanic checks the wear of the rocker arm where it contacts the end of the valve stem. One of these was very worn, and he replaced it with a serviceable SH rocker. Based on watching these two YT, I would now only replace the eight broken rockers and would reuse the serviceable rockers, and hydraulic lash adjusters.

I tend to agree with David S, and if gaskets are expensive, then consider cleaning them up and applying RTV sealant to reuse them.

Hopefully you have kept your injectors in the order they have been removed, but someone else has previously numbered them for you!

Based on the two YT videos, it seems that the root cause for failure on high mileage (300,000km plus) engines is the cam chain tensioner wearing and then failing, with consequent chain and sprockets damage; so I would be inspecting the tensioner wear carefully and deciding it if is still serviceable.

As others have previously commented you need to familierise yourself with the camshaft timing and the two holes in the camshaft drive pulley. I'm repeating what others have said: after fitting the cam drive belt, turn the engine over at least two complete crankshaft revolutions by hand, to ensure no interference. I would do this prior to fitting the injectors to make it easier.

After a good clean up and fixing the other items, you are going to end up with a great vehicle at a low cost. A pre-emptive, Well Done.

PS: Based on your photograph, I suspect that the indentation mark on the camshaft lobe is due to brinelling, potentially caused by the impact of the rocker at the instant of interference failure? I would run with the comments that jaahn and David S have made, and providing there are no high points protruding above the surrounding surface it may be serviceable for many more km's.

View attachment 226088

Cheers.

Thanks Whippet, those video's were very informative and reassuring, and i think my way forward will be encouraged by their good results.. i think that the chain tensioner wear is sufficient to warrant replacement, i'll share a photo shortly, but the above photo is also misleading (man you guys have a keen eye.. i have reinspected the camshaft looking for the marks you can see above, and was mystified when i couldnt find them!. it eventually dawned on me that what you can see, particularly in the center area of the lobe is the reflection of the galvanized ceiling of my shed!

 

[MrMcGoog123]

Just a comment about engine failures like this. How long does the engine take to slow to stopped 5 sec, 10 sec, 30 sec if in gear lock up or a manual possibly.
At say 2400 RPM which is 40 revs per second you estimate how many times the broken rockers hit the cam or how they jammed under the cam and were squashed ??? Hmm it would be worth having a camera in there to see it in slow motion.

The VW people used to do an "engine blow" when they had a get together in the good ol'days. I found this one !!
One comment "Fun and good times! The staple of VW events in US" Jaahn

I Have often wondered what happens in this situation?... does the automatic trans allow the engine to stop while the wheels keep on rolling?.. if the torque converter stops with the flexplate, does it uncouple and let the trans freewheel?, but how then could you push start an auto car?, as i believe you could/can (never seen this happen)

and that video!, how awful!, i'm glad i was using headphones or the kids in the back shed might have overheard!....

 

[MrMcGoog123]

Closer inspection of the timing chain, sprockets and tensioner with my super-phone camera.. actually very light wear only!, was confused by the actual design, it has raised ridges from new...

The slight grooves at either side cannot be caught with a fingernail..

the sprockets have sharp defined edges, and square tooth ends, all are identical.. you can see how smooth the cam lobes are in this picture.

this lobe is one of cyl 4 exhaust lobes, this lobe completely broke its rocker.. i could not feel the mark you see with a new razor blade point..

I have ordered: timing belt kit with wp
set of rockers (16 pack- cheapest way on ebay)
inlet manifold set
oil filter
Total: 421.40AUD including delivery.... now we wait!