C4 Grand Picasso engine Removal and Swap

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MrMcGoog123

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Tadpole
Tadpole
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Adelaide
Hi All,
I am long time french car tragic, and i find myself in dire need of some advice, have searched the forums and the internet at large, but haven't found the resources needed.. so throwing myself at your mercy!.

I have purchased a "Bargain" 2007 C4 Grand Picasso, as a "non runner", that broke down at highway speeds. The car has the 2.0 HDi RHR engine and proper auto gearbox, and 270,000 odd km. the vehicle will crank but not start.
The PO stated that the check engine light came on, and the engine lost all power, and was not able to be restarted. it was not overheating or performing strangely before this failure. It was then towed by RACV to the exact spot i rescued it from, the car was sold to recoup the cost of tyres on their replacement vehicle.
This sounded like a timing belt failure to me, engine codes included Camshaft position sync error, (which i had seen before when my C5 2.2 hdi skipped 2 teeth..)
Skip forward past the 860km round trip and servo trailer tow home (legendary C5 pulling power), and initial disassembly, to finding a very worn timing belt missing 14 teeth!. I had the crankshaft pinned with the correct pins in place, but am not able to position the camshaft to pin it in place, i get around 1/3 rotation only before the bolt on the camshaft begins to move (either direction), and i don't want to break anything else...
I have removed injectors, valve cover gasket, but man!, even lying across the engine, i cant even see into the top of the engine to see what damage lies in wait for me!?. what were they thinking!.. from my pre-purchase research, i was expecting at best case to be replacing rockers and a new timing belt kit, and that's about it?, but i don't feel confident i can find all of the broken pieces with this little visibility?... also, would broken rockers seize up the camshaft(s), or does it sound like there is more or different damage? the car cranked over fine before disassembly (although a little "Gallopy"),
My aching back and i are thinking it might be best to pull the engine/gearbox from the car to continue?, as my predicted worst case was to buy a used low km engine, and still be well ahead of the next cheapest Picasso.
I would love to hear your thoughts about what i should do/check next, i have a lexia that's working fine (was able to reconnect and calibrate the handbrake cables the RACV helped with :)) and little invested just yet.. I have a couple of quick specific questions:

a. can someone share a link for the process of removing the diesel engine from the C4 Grand Picasso (2007) (i have a C4 Haynes manual but it doesn't include GP)
b. Can i use any RHR engine to replace mine in the C4GP?, ie 307, 407, C5, C4... i have a lead on a low KM and low $$ engine from a 407 with 6 speed auto.. hoping to go in this direction!

Thanks so much guys, really appreciate any advice or tips, i love these fantastic quirky cars..
Regards
Ben (SA)
 
I wouldn't take the engine out yet. Remove the cams and expose the valve stems and see if they all sit at the same height. Any that are 'down' suggest a bent valve. I'm not sure if the RHR camshafts are composite or solid, but the composite camshaft on something like the DV6 1.6HDi will turn the lobes as well as break the fingers/rockers when the cam belt fails. You might still get away with repair of this engine.

Re the handbrake: there is a Y-joiner on the cables and it has a small metal plate behind one of the cables. Make sure it's secure and not slipping out.

You can get parts info here: https://catalogs.ssg.asia/citroen/?lang=en

Here are a couple of diagrams to help:

1691809869708.png
1691809911014.png

1691809959493.png
 
Thank you David, really appreciate your experienced suggestions. will get onto removing the cams in a bit, once cams and rockers removed, all valves (that are not bent/damaged) should be closed and stems at most raised position?, right?..
I should be able to tell if the camshaft is solid or composite once removed, but how will i know if any of the lobes are turned? I am not sure i would feel confident to reuse a camshaft where this may be the case?, or is there an easy way to tell (anyone seen this?)
If we are talking $$, though, on eBay, ive seen a kit including camshafts, rockers and lifters for about $650 aud, this is getting close to the RHR complete secondhand engine i was looking at with 100K less KM... hence my wondering that way?
, would obviously do the TB kit (with WP), front and rear seals in either case,
.......in terms of expended effort and confidence in having found all damage... and if valves needed>> head off/head work/gasket kit.... balance is tipped !

The Handbrake seems OK, thanks for the tip with the Y-connector, the friendly RACV guy unhooked the cables from the calipers (made me feel reminiscent of being at the other end of my C5)
Thanks so much again, really appreciate this wonderful community!
 
Yes, without the camshafts every valve should be at the same height. When the piston hits a valve in this engine, it pushes it straight upwards, so it's much less likely to be bend than in an engine with inclined valves. Some people have got out of this problem by replacing only the fingers / rockers and the timing belt.
There is a difference in the bolt pattern on the block, so get one from a 6 speed auto if you need to replace it. Remember that Ford used this same engine in Mondeo so there is expertise and parts available from that alternative source.
Another very common reason for a sudden no-start is the EGR valve dropping the head off the valve or breaking the actuator arm off. Blocking it off by sliding a plate under it is the workaround to get you home.
 
I remember watching a youtube video about a ford that had become a non runner. The mechanic was able to by a repair kit of new rockers and stuff which he fitted with a new timing belt and it started up straight away. So have a look for it.

Your back will get stronger with exercise or if it is too far gone for that, try to set up a 'bed' or a support so your back does not have to do all the work.

Cheers, Ken
 
Hi.

Interesting video. It could almost be called "fail to nearly safe" as the rocker arms become the sacrificial "weakest link" in the valve drive train after failure of the camshaft timing belt. Much easier to replace these then have to remove the cylinder head to repair bent/broken valves and also potentially the damage to piston crowns as well.

Vertical oriented valves in line with the bore axis are a good thing.

Cheers.
 
Here is one possible source.

areyourshop.com

16 X Rocker Arm For Peugeot Citroen Fiat Ford 2.0 HDI 2.0 TDCI 090369 1255011 Generic

Feature:1: Own different test machines to design exact accurate parameter for our products.All switches were tested for performance.2: Made by high quality material, ?anti-rust, colorfast and durable.3: Aftermarket product with premium quality.Specifics:Condition: 100% Brand NewManufacturer Part...
areyourshop.com areyourshop.com

Cheers, Ken
 
Or a set like this. This crowd are on eBay too.
www.lymmengineparts.co.uk

Set of 16 Rocker Arms For Citroen 2.0, 2.2

Citroen 2.0, 2.2 Set of 16 Rocker Arms Fits Models: C4, C5, C8, Dispatch, Synergie Engine Codes: 4HW (DW12TED4), 4HX (DW12TED4), RHF (DW10BTED4), RHJ (DW10BTED4), RHK (DW10UTED4), RHM (DW10ATED4), RHR (DW10BTED4), RHT (DW10ATED4), RHW (DW10ATED4) OEM Number: 0903.60, 0903.
www.lymmengineparts.co.uk www.lymmengineparts.co.uk

This search will find cams, bearings, bolts, gaskets etc.
https://www.lymmengineparts.co.uk/index.php?route=product/search&search=dw10b&description=true

I assume you know if you remove the head you have to measure the piston height in relation to the block top face and select the head gasket accordingly. Hopefully, you won't need to remove the head though.
 
Man you guys are awesome! i think that's the clearest video of the procedure ive watched!, thanks for the links David, thats a great resource..
I now have engine bay envy, after looking at the car he was working on, even with the cowl removed on this picasso, the exhaust camshaft is under the windscreen still...
David, you assume incorrectly! :), first ive heard of that!.. but i wont be taking the head off, the engine in my sights is a RHR from 6speed auto 407, with 179,000km and 3 month warranty for $850 local to me... my back is whispering in my ear (and its not just because of the Picasso "Positions" i'm putting it through..)
 
I'm wondering if fixing the rockers would be easier than replacing the whole unit. If you want to repair it, yell out and I'll post some more relevant bits of the Mechanic's Handbook. It doesn't cover engine removal and replacement.

PSA delights in putting engines under the overhanging windscreen and scuttle. The C5 is not easy, but the little DS3 must qualify for a booby prize - removing the inlet manifold, injectors etc is entirely by feel - you need a diagram to find the fixings.
 
"Can i use any RHR engine to replace mine in the C4GP?, ie 307, 407, C5, C4... i have a lead on a low KM and low $$ engine from a 407 with 6 speed auto.. hoping to go in this direction!"
BEN
Who knows the full answer to that question of yours ? It assumes someone on here has done it before, hmm possibly or not who knows ?? No one has rushed forward so far. :sleepy:
But people have had the timing belt break and done the other method of getting the engine going OK that has been put forward in some helpful detail and it works ! So bear that in mind as you make a decision, is my considered opinion :2cents:
Jaahn
 
seasink said:
I'm wondering if fixing the rockers would be easier than replacing the whole unit. If you want to repair it, yell out and I'll post some more relevant bits of the Mechanic's Handbook. It doesn't cover engine removal and replacement.

PSA delights in putting engines under the overhanging windscreen and scuttle. The C5 is not easy, but the little DS3 must qualify for a booby prize - removing the inlet manifold, injectors etc is entirely by feel - you need a diagram to find the fixings.
Click to expand...
Thank you so much for your input!, this is all very helpful to me... Actually, i'm sure it (repair of rockers) would be the easier way, and if it seems i have no valve/head/further damage, (and i can find all of the broken bits!) that is probably the way i will go.
Having said that, from my quick research so far, the cost for the inlet manifold gasket set, rockers and camshafts add up to around $700 without freight, that gets me back on the road with the current 270,000km engine (which i'm sure has had an abusive maintenance regime) where $850 gets me a used engine with (only) 179,000 km from a lighter vehicle, and i get to do the tbelt/wp and front and rear seals from the convenience of an engine stand...?

Either way, i will of course be doing the timing kit with WP, and whatever seals i can get to, some inkling there is also rear main leak?..

I have definitely had some contortions with my beautiful C5 (swirl valve actuator, anyone?), and with the Missus' Scenic 2, but this C4 picasso has been the worst by far.. so far..:)
 
jaahn said:
"Can i use any RHR engine to replace mine in the C4GP?, ie 307, 407, C5, C4... i have a lead on a low KM and low $$ engine from a 407 with 6 speed auto.. hoping to go in this direction!"
BEN
Who knows the full answer to that question of yours ? It assumes someone on here has done it before, hmm possibly or not who knows ?? No one has rushed forward so far. :sleepy:
But people have had the timing belt break and done the other method of getting the engine going OK that has been put forward in some helpful detail and it works ! So bear that in mind as you make a decision, is my considered opinion :2cents:
Jaahn
Click to expand...
Thank You Jaahn, i will happily take your 2cents straight to the bank!, i was hoping someone had been down the road I'm thinking to go.. the repair was definitely my favored strategy initially, and then i learned about the twisting camshafts of doom..
I know that everything is doable, but I'm also trying to rationalize my resources of $$ and time, neither of which i have more than i can use..
This car was a bargain, but a gamble also.. very limited service history with last documented tbelt change at 96,000km, 174000km till it broke!, not bad i guess!
I appreciate so much all of the advice, and every detail shared. It really does help to have as many opinions as you are happy to share!
Thanks, kind regards, Ben
 
I find myself wondering if you can take off the front subframe and then remove mounts and lower the whole power unit 50-100mm to give you the needed access to do the repair. I haven't worked on this particular model so I don't know for sure, but it would still be less than you'd have to do to actually remove the whole power unit and replace it.
 
This is a general answer as I have never worked on a C4. I do appreciate your logic as to the Ks and the $.
Most new cars when built new have the engine/gearbox/driveshafts/front suspension/assembled on the subframe and then the body lowered onto that in one piece. So taking the engine out is often easiest if you can sort of reverse that, instead of trying to remove individual sub pieces. Almost never easy to come out the top like the good ol'days past.
That is not so easy to do however without a hoist ! But after the gearbox and engine is out on the 'ground' you can separate them and/or do the timing belts/accessory drive etc very easily. Perhaps the drive shafts also at that ks and the suspension bushes.

My other 'bon mots' might be to say that with the fully computer controlled engine and gearbox and body functions there will be a problem if you need to change any computer to that car. EG the 6sp gearbox CU. They are all connected and are identified as a whole car and I have no idea how to get around that, but suspect that even with a copy of the factory software you might get into deep sh*t quickly.
Good luck Jaahn
 
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I think I'd replace the rockers. I have no doubt your going to find even though the bare block is the same.... there is going to be numerous differences in all the accessories. There is only one way to find out though :)

Sounds like a fun project either way. I'd whip the top end off the motor and see if it just needs the rocker arms first (why would that be $700 of gaskets? Wouldn't it just be a rocker gasket *if* it needs replacing ?

Its sounds like you want to go down the engine change route. Don't forget to budget new timing belt kit into the replacement engine as well!

seeya,
Shane L.
 
Hi. My two cent’s worth

I concur with the last few posts. I would be repairing the original engine if I could, even if that cost a small margin over engine replacement. Why? All the CPUs and mechanical specifications match with no latent problems revealing themselves at the end of the engine swap, after you have spent your money, that might be difficult to resolve.

Also no engine to freight and to dispose of.

Good project though.

Cheers.
 
It's a pity you can't do a blowdown test to determine the valve conditions. I would change the motor because the alternative sounds like it could be a ducks nest.
An example for you is from a neighbors late model Subaru which stripped the cam belt. Too expensive to repair he had it up for sale as a non runner. Several prospected buyers came to look, all wanted to spin it over for whatever reason. So there it sat opposite my driveway for quite a while until his next door neighbor made him an offer. Out with the motor, send it off to a Subaro repair shop. 4 pistons, 4 conrods, new head, all valves. new oil pump. plus sundries later it was a runner. I reckon there was probably little of this damage done when the belt stripped, but the owner and several prospected buyers spinning it over would not have been in the engines best interest.
I never got involved thank god. Just watched from my lounge window.
 
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