Another 205 8v thread
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Just be wary, the head moves around when you torque it down. Thus, by all means do a rough shim on the bench, but you'll need to do it again.
Did not think about that Peter, thanks for the heads up.
Missus is working Saturday Matt so happy to come over early and finish off the timing belt. I'll bring the first aid kit.
Missus is working Saturday Matt so happy to come over early and finish off the timing belt. I'll bring the first aid kit.
Time for an update:
Peter kindly engaged in lengthy email discussion about cams and I’ve just reground my DFZ cam at similar to his Stage 2. Thanks again Peter, I at least owe you a carton.
They took about 2.2mm off the base circle diameter so hopefully once the seats are cut I shouldn’t need to go too far off with my shims.
Now that I have everything for the bottom end I decided I’d check the liner protrusion one more time. All clearances are less than 0.004” (0.1mm). The exception is the corner of the block where the corrosion was fixed up, it initially got 0.006”. I found a tiny bit of weld splatter on the seat and carefully attacked it with the diamond file.
This closed up the clearance on that corner to somewhere between 0.005” (0.13mm) and 0.004” (0.1mm). The diagonally opposite corner gets 0.0025” (0.06mm). This is a bit worrying as the manual states a max difference of 0.002” (0.05mm) between liners, but this is diagonally across the same liner. All other liners are pretty solid at between 0.003” and 0.004”. These are brand new KS liners and I have barely detected any difference when swapping them around, so it’s all in the block.
Off to Chilton tomorrow with the Si head and DFZ dizzy block for an overhaul. I’ll get him to clean the Si dizzy block so I can change it in the future
Peter kindly engaged in lengthy email discussion about cams and I’ve just reground my DFZ cam at similar to his Stage 2. Thanks again Peter, I at least owe you a carton.
They took about 2.2mm off the base circle diameter so hopefully once the seats are cut I shouldn’t need to go too far off with my shims.
Now that I have everything for the bottom end I decided I’d check the liner protrusion one more time. All clearances are less than 0.004” (0.1mm). The exception is the corner of the block where the corrosion was fixed up, it initially got 0.006”. I found a tiny bit of weld splatter on the seat and carefully attacked it with the diamond file.
This closed up the clearance on that corner to somewhere between 0.005” (0.13mm) and 0.004” (0.1mm). The diagonally opposite corner gets 0.0025” (0.06mm). This is a bit worrying as the manual states a max difference of 0.002” (0.05mm) between liners, but this is diagonally across the same liner. All other liners are pretty solid at between 0.003” and 0.004”. These are brand new KS liners and I have barely detected any difference when swapping them around, so it’s all in the block.
Off to Chilton tomorrow with the Si head and DFZ dizzy block for an overhaul. I’ll get him to clean the Si dizzy block so I can change it in the future
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Woohoo I can report more progress after many late nights.
The head is still at the Chilton Engineering. In the meantime…
I sorted out the liner protrusion issue. Two BIC pens later, it was immediately obvious where I needed to file down:
After some careful filing it sat much better and now gets a protrusion within spec.
At this point I was confident I could start loading up the pistons. I still decided to smear the suspect liner seal with 1211, even though I filled the chamfer with epoxy. Now she’ll be clamped down until the head goes on.
AE mains and ACL race big ends now installed. Spins nice and freely. Haven’t torqued up yet, until I find an accurate torque wrench. My mate recently broke an ARP head stud using a Mechpro torque wrench so now I’m only trusting mine for suspension.
In threebond we trust:
Ive gotten a power steering seal kit from WA. Figure it’s worth doing while the rack is getting new boots and grease. I’ve read it’s easy to stuff up.
The head is still at the Chilton Engineering. In the meantime…
I sorted out the liner protrusion issue. Two BIC pens later, it was immediately obvious where I needed to file down:
After some careful filing it sat much better and now gets a protrusion within spec.
At this point I was confident I could start loading up the pistons. I still decided to smear the suspect liner seal with 1211, even though I filled the chamfer with epoxy. Now she’ll be clamped down until the head goes on.
AE mains and ACL race big ends now installed. Spins nice and freely. Haven’t torqued up yet, until I find an accurate torque wrench. My mate recently broke an ARP head stud using a Mechpro torque wrench so now I’m only trusting mine for suspension.
In threebond we trust:
Ive gotten a power steering seal kit from WA. Figure it’s worth doing while the rack is getting new boots and grease. I’ve read it’s easy to stuff up.
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What epoxy did you use in the end?
I'm going to be the guinea pig for JB Weld Original. I just couldn't justify $280 for a tin of Belzona when I only needed a fingernail amount and I still wouldn't trust my workmanship enough to not use a sealant. The Devcon equivalents exhibit similar characteristics to JB Weld but have a much lower temperature rating in their specs.
I've got Warren & Brown torque wrenches, but I'd love one of those new jobbies that does angle AND torque.
If only someone told you earlier.
Would be interested to know how it held up.
In the meantime I found ze germans have some amazing products but not sure they'd be available here. Look up greasy fingers' channel on youtube.
Head came back much quicker than expected.
I basically let the machinist do what he needed to do. Since I took 2.2mm of the cam he tried to keep the ratio of height above the retainer to in the retainer the same by trimming the valve stem along with thicker shims. No idea if that was a good idea but I’m sure I’ll need to change shims again.
Now that I compare the virgin heads with the ported head, it shows how agricultural the short side radius was. It’s almost a 90 degree step change into the seat.
To torque the head down, I splurged on a nice W&B torque wrench, a 760mm breaker and Koken T55 Torx.
60Nm was stressful enough. One of the bolts didn’t go in by hand even though I tapped the threads. Once I loosened it I found some of threads were damaged so it must have been dropped at some stage before me. Once again, diamond file to the rescue.
I lubed the bolts and washers with silver anti-seize twice. Once before 60Nm pull to coat the threads and again before the 20Nm stage.
The 300 degree pulls got the blood pumping. But all that preparation paid off, no stripped threads:
I basically let the machinist do what he needed to do. Since I took 2.2mm of the cam he tried to keep the ratio of height above the retainer to in the retainer the same by trimming the valve stem along with thicker shims. No idea if that was a good idea but I’m sure I’ll need to change shims again.
Now that I compare the virgin heads with the ported head, it shows how agricultural the short side radius was. It’s almost a 90 degree step change into the seat.
To torque the head down, I splurged on a nice W&B torque wrench, a 760mm breaker and Koken T55 Torx.
60Nm was stressful enough. One of the bolts didn’t go in by hand even though I tapped the threads. Once I loosened it I found some of threads were damaged so it must have been dropped at some stage before me. Once again, diamond file to the rescue.
I lubed the bolts and washers with silver anti-seize twice. Once before 60Nm pull to coat the threads and again before the 20Nm stage.
The 300 degree pulls got the blood pumping. But all that preparation paid off, no stripped threads:
Job well done. I know the satisfaction of getting these heads torqued to spec with no misadventures. I used moly grease under the heads, washers and on the threads. Moly is for high pressure, which I think it's fitting here. That said, 60Nm is nothing, the wrench is not even going to break a sweat. The final 300 is butt clenching. That said, you should try 200Nm on a Renault g'box secondary shaft.
But why the damaged bolt? Are you reusing bolts? Either way, you can buy M11x1.5 taps and dies easily enough, just need to order them or go to a specialist store where you'll find them on the shelf.
But why the damaged bolt? Are you reusing bolts? Either way, you can buy M11x1.5 taps and dies easily enough, just need to order them or go to a specialist store where you'll find them on the shelf.
Grease of any kind seems like a must, I don’t know why people insist on going in dry. Just don’t over-lubricate, as anti-seize works almost too well.
Yes, for the same clamping force a lower torque is required for wet threads vs dry, so you do risk over torquing a conventional bolt. But TTY depends on angles, and is independent of torque. The engineers here can correct me on this.
The bolts were out of a brand new and sealed Elring package from Precision Intl. This was happening on a Sunday, I wasn’t going to wait to get a die.
Yes, for the same clamping force a lower torque is required for wet threads vs dry, so you do risk over torquing a conventional bolt. But TTY depends on angles, and is independent of torque. The engineers here can correct me on this.
The bolts were out of a brand new and sealed Elring package from Precision Intl. This was happening on a Sunday, I wasn’t going to wait to get a die.
Yeah, I get it. What an unpleasant surprise.
What I read on the internets at some point was that clicky type torque wrenches were not adequate for aluminium blocks, probably because they can overshoot the torque or maybe because they are not that accurate to begin with. I've always had a dial type torque wrench so not a problem here but I had no idea when I bought it. Luckily it covers the range I need.
I have actually run a little experiment and tried to torque bolts without grease and with grease just to see the difference. Without grease, the dial jerks a little bit probably because the bolt moves in tiny increments instead of continuously. You may get away with that sometimes but I don't think you want to do it with such a high torque in an aluminium block like the XU9.
What I read on the internets at some point was that clicky type torque wrenches were not adequate for aluminium blocks, probably because they can overshoot the torque or maybe because they are not that accurate to begin with. I've always had a dial type torque wrench so not a problem here but I had no idea when I bought it. Luckily it covers the range I need.
I have actually run a little experiment and tried to torque bolts without grease and with grease just to see the difference. Without grease, the dial jerks a little bit probably because the bolt moves in tiny increments instead of continuously. You may get away with that sometimes but I don't think you want to do it with such a high torque in an aluminium block like the XU9.
Are you suggesting a Warren & Brown isn't accurate? Far out you're a wally.
Also, an XU9 TTY isn't high torque. Pulling an ARP head stud around to 124lbft is high torque.
You're making things up in your head and projecting them onto others.
Again.
And anyway, who are you to say Wally won't enjoy it?
I have no knowledge of any specific brands, I have a few clicky ones including one made by Wurth, which I trust, but I would still not use it on things like torqueing head bolts in aluminium blocks.
124lbft is less than 200Nm.
Again.
And anyway, who are you to say Wally won't enjoy it?
I have no knowledge of any specific brands, I have a few clicky ones including one made by Wurth, which I trust, but I would still not use it on things like torqueing head bolts in aluminium blocks.
124lbft is less than 200Nm.
I trust a deflecting beam over a micrometer type, regardless of manufacturer. There's something about witnessing the purity of relative displacement in front of your eyes. Plus the only wearable (breakable) part is the pin which can be replaced at my nearest tool shop.
Back on track. I put the timing belt on and realised I forgot to seal up the oil gallery plugs. I'm thinking Loctite 577. Now that the sump is on, is it a good idea to prime the galleries with oil through the pressure senders?
Also contemplating putting the manual steering back on until I find someone to rebuild the PAS rack. After stretching the old seals on the pinion I realised it doesn't take much to ruin them. The old man , who is a hydraulic fitter, told me to put them in boiled water then use some brass shim to slide them on, but doing a test fit with the old seals I found I was crushing the shim or slicing into the seal on the sharp edges. I don't see how you can return the seal to its original shape after its been stretched as it just buckles when you try to clamp it. He thought he had some free time this week, but all the elites seem to be refitting their superyachts as of late, so he has his hands full.
Just waiting on a BE3 throwout bearing and I can throw the engine back on a hoist.
Back on track. I put the timing belt on and realised I forgot to seal up the oil gallery plugs. I'm thinking Loctite 577. Now that the sump is on, is it a good idea to prime the galleries with oil through the pressure senders?
Also contemplating putting the manual steering back on until I find someone to rebuild the PAS rack. After stretching the old seals on the pinion I realised it doesn't take much to ruin them. The old man , who is a hydraulic fitter, told me to put them in boiled water then use some brass shim to slide them on, but doing a test fit with the old seals I found I was crushing the shim or slicing into the seal on the sharp edges. I don't see how you can return the seal to its original shape after its been stretched as it just buckles when you try to clamp it. He thought he had some free time this week, but all the elites seem to be refitting their superyachts as of late, so he has his hands full.
Just waiting on a BE3 throwout bearing and I can throw the engine back on a hoist.
I haven't used 577, but it should be fine. I use 569 as you can position a fitting anywhere. It is brilliant stuff. I'd leave priming until the motor is in the car, but you can if you want. It's just messy, as you still need to fit remote oil filter etc.
Those PAS seals are tricky. I give the pinion assembly to the steering place. They heat the seal in oil.
Did you check the bucket clearances after torquing the head down?
Those PAS seals are tricky. I give the pinion assembly to the steering place. They heat the seal in oil.
Did you check the bucket clearances after torquing the head down?
I ended up taking the rack to a steering shop., Another shop that loathes when a Pug owner comes in. They did the seals and shimmed up the pinion.
Have not checked those clearances yet Peter, I need to confirm what the machinist set them at to begin with as I am very curious. Typical old bugger though. Reckons I'd be spending money unnecessarily worrying about 'miniscule' changes in clearances and getting deadly accurate on cam timing. He was, however, more concerned with how I will adjust the ignition advance.
Well there's no throwout bearings in the country. Not until December at least. I do have one that came with my Si BE3 and it doesn't feel scratchy or too 'free'. If the brains trust says 1st gear is as bad as they say it is, I'd like to throw this gearbox on and chuck the engine in pronto.
Have not checked those clearances yet Peter, I need to confirm what the machinist set them at to begin with as I am very curious. Typical old bugger though. Reckons I'd be spending money unnecessarily worrying about 'miniscule' changes in clearances and getting deadly accurate on cam timing. He was, however, more concerned with how I will adjust the ignition advance.
Well there's no throwout bearings in the country. Not until December at least. I do have one that came with my Si BE3 and it doesn't feel scratchy or too 'free'. If the brains trust says 1st gear is as bad as they say it is, I'd like to throw this gearbox on and chuck the engine in pronto.