Finally ... Repairing a traction gearbox.

[DoubleChevron]

Well I gave up on trying to move the car without draining the tank .... That just wasn't going to happen. I feel like that stale petrol has permeated my cloths ... nose ... skin ..... Will the shed ever be usable again Gee's it bloody stinks ... ..... It makes you feel sick in the stomach.

I forgot to take a photo of it ... I can only assume the pickup line for the tank slots into the drain plug. It has a big shiny "stainless" basket as a part of the drain plug. It was shiny and spotlessly clean (which makes absolutely no sense .... they must have made petrol of better stuff 20years ago).

The petrol is clear like water in the pump now. I've added new rubber line, but will chase up some proper fuel line clamps (not these worm drive clamps that cut into the line. this is the suction side, so it probably doesn't matter I guess).

Finally, now I can see what is going on.

first thing ... out with the battery. John been getting me quite concerned with his traction pictures..... that's a big phew there! There is rust growing into the seem at the back.... But i'm not concerned ( after all, she's 70 years old!... If that's all she's got, another 70 if no problem at all!). That big hole behind the battery into the passenger compartment certainly can't be right...

next thing ... you guys were worrying me with your talk about rusting brake lines.

You can't see the lines. The only option is to replace all of it. As it will surely get broken trying to dismantle it (even if it proves to be perfectly ok).

This explains the low brake fluid level. This car can't leave the yard. its unsafe. It probably has single circuit brakes, so as soon as that line fails, there will be no brakes at all. Its a shame really, I need to get the brakes good and warm to free them up a bit.

that explains the oil being left under it. Nothing to worry about at all

This car really is quite remarkable for something that is 70 years old.

 

[citroenthusiast]

Lucky you!. Someone must have taken good care of the battery in that car. FWIW the big hole behind the battery is correct. There is supposed to be a big rubber pad that goes over it. When you tighten the battery hold-down nuts the pad seals the hole (at least theoretically). Without that big hole you can't get to the nuts that hold the gearshift mechanism or other things behind the instruments.

 

[DoubleChevron]

Lucky you!. Someone must have taken good care of the battery in that car. FWIW the big hole behind the battery is correct. There is supposed to be a big rubber pad that goes over it. When you tighten the battery hold-down nuts the pad seals the hole (at least theoretically). Without that big hole you can't get to the nuts that hold the gearshift mechanism or other things behind the instruments.

I'm going to start of list of "bits" that I don't have ..... So I can chase them up over time. The problem I have is we have never really owned/seen an intact car (so you need to rely on the exploded parts diagrams to see what is missing).

 

[gerrypro]

Lucky you!. Someone must have taken good care of the battery in that car. FWIW the big hole behind the battery is correct. There is supposed to be a big rubber pad that goes over it. When you tighten the battery hold-down nuts the pad seals the hole (at least theoretically). Without that big hole you can't get to the nuts that hold the gearshift mechanism or other things behind the instruments.

If you own a Slough built TA, there is no large hole in the battery box. It is still possible to access the gear change mechanism. I guess that the hole just made it a little easier.

 

[citroenthusiast]

If you own a Slough built TA, there is no large hole in the battery box. It is still possible to access the gear change mechanism. I guess that the hole just made it a little easier.

You must have very long arms to reach the bolt head on the firewall and the nut inside the cabin without that hole....

 

[DoubleChevron]

I'm really good at this stuff. I'd flushed this cooling system quite a few times before it came apart. So obviously, as soon as I fitted the radiator .... I could see crap .... including lots of baby spiders and rubbish circulating past the top of the radiator...... Sigh.... Yes, I should have guessed the cooling system would have spiders nets and crap in it from being open. Hopefully the pantyhose I just put in the top hose will collect this up.

So I filled the empty brake reservoir .... and applied the brakes at about 30mph a few times..... And I'll be damned if the pedal didn't lift nice and high ..... and become very hard under foot. The brakes are good but take considerable pressure. The rear left is wheel is the one that is causing issues. The wheel is warm to touch. So thats an easy fix. that dodgy brake line will not be allowing the pressure to release (that sure has made the car a right PITA to move around various sheds over the last 20years!).

The gearbox is really tight in the selectors and smooth... The changes are excellent and synchros strong. Rolling down the hill in 3rd there is a noise in the front .... wheel bearing or driveshaft is my guess. That's ok as I need to go through all of that either way.

What an amazing old car, it sits rock solid on the road at 40mph and feels like a soft supple go-kart with arrow sharp steering. Its also very quiet (though I'm sure it get very noisy and loud under power at higher speeds).

 

[gerrypro]

You must have very long arms to reach the bolt head on the firewall and the nut inside the cabin without that hole....

Believe me it can be done!
One just lays a spanner on the head of the bolt in the battery box to prevent it from turning and then one works from the under dash to remove the nut! Simple!

 

[gerrypro]

View attachment 126190

I'm really good at this stuff. I'd flushed this cooling system quite a few times before it came apart. So obviously, as soon as I fitted the radiator .... I could see crap .... including lots of baby spiders and rubbish circulating past the top of the radiator...... Sigh.... Yes, I should have guessed the cooling system would have spiders nets and crap in it from being open. Hopefully the pantyhose I just put in the top hose will collect this up.

So I filled the empty brake reservoir .... and applied the brakes at about 30mph a few times..... And I'll be damned if the pedal didn't lift nice and high ..... and become very hard under foot. The brakes are good but take considerable pressure. The rear left is wheel is the one that is causing issues. The wheel is warm to touch. So thats an easy fix. that dodgy brake line will not be allowing the pressure to release (that sure has made the car a right PITA to move around various sheds over the last 20years!).

The gearbox is really tight in the selectors and smooth... The changes are excellent and synchros strong. Rolling down the hill in 3rd there is a noise in the front .... wheel bearing or driveshaft is my guess. That's ok as I need to go through all of that either way.

What an amazing old car, it sits rock solid on the road at 40mph and feels like a soft supple go-kart with arrow sharp steering. Its also very quiet (though I'm sure it get very noisy and loud under power at higher speeds).

Well Done! The charms of the old girl will be gradually revealed, as you are already finding out!

 

[RINGER]

"The rear left is wheel is the one that is causing issues.
The wheel is warm to touch. So that's an easy fix.
That dodgy brake line will not be allowing the pressure to release (that sure has made the car a right PITA to move around various sheds over the last 20years!)."

This flex hose issue may have been mentioned earlier in this long thread, that I have not fully read.

Usually rear brakes only have one flex brake hose ~ from the chassis to the axle ~ then steel lines to the wheel cylinders.
This means if that brake hose was a problem ~ both sides would be affected equally.

So, I would venture to offer that on a restoration project of a rarely used very old vehicle ~ likely rear left only brake issue/s:
1. adjustment or brake shoes have rust between them & the drum, causing drag.
2. a sticky or corroded wheel cylinder/piston is also a cause for brake dragging & drum heating.

Easy check:
Releasing then quickly re-tightening the bleeder nipple on the wheel cylinder will release any excess pressure ~ no difference then it's not the hose.
If there is a difference then brake pedal free travel or faulty flex line [less likely] need checking.

That being said all flex lines need replacing on a vehicle this old ~ as well the main steel line on the Light 15 running front to rear should be replaced as well.

 

[DoubleChevron]

"The rear left is wheel is the one that is causing issues.
The wheel is warm to touch. So that's an easy fix.
That dodgy brake line will not be allowing the pressure to release (that sure has made the car a right PITA to move around various sheds over the last 20years!)."

This flex hose issue may have been mentioned earlier in this long thread, that I have not fully read.

Usually rear brakes only have one flex brake hose ~ from the chassis to the axle ~ then steel lines to the wheel cylinders.
This means if that brake hose was a problem ~ both sides would be affected equally.

So, I would venture to offer that on a restoration project of a rarely used very old vehicle ~ likely rear left only brake issue/s:
1. adjustment or brake shoes have rust between them & the drum, causing drag.
2. a sticky or corroded wheel cylinder/piston is also a cause for brake dragging & drum heating.

Easy check:
Releasing then quickly re-tightening the bleeder nipple on the wheel cylinder will release any excess pressure ~ no difference then it's not the hose.
If there is a difference then brake pedal free travel or faulty flex line [less likely] need checking.

That being said all flex lines need replacing on a vehicle this old ~ as well the main steel line on the Light 15 running front to rear should be replaced as well.

Each wheel has its own soft line. They collapse internally and don't let the pressure come off (I've seen this before). So the one wheel ends up with the brakes applied all of the time.

I'll need to replace all of the hard lines as well as all of the rubber lines as you can't tell if there rusty.

 

[gerrypro]

They are an unusual fitting. You may need to purchase from an O/Seas supplier. There are two lengths for the rear hoses I believe yours will be the shorter length. Are you replacing the fronts as well? I recommend Dot 5 silicone fluid for longevity. But the entire system will need to flushed and cleaned and all rubber cups and internal master cylinder valves will need to be replaced.

 

[DoubleChevron]

They are an unusual fitting. You may need to purchase from an O/Seas supplier. There are two lengths for the rear hoses I believe yours will be the shorter length. Are you replacing the fronts as well? I recommend Dot 5 silicone fluid for longevity. But the entire system will need to flushed and cleaned and all rubber cups and internal master cylinder valves will need to be replaced.

I'll pull the line off and take it upto the local brake/hydraulic shop. I bet they can re-use the ends

 

[Kenfuego]

I have a box of NOS brake hoses, if you can give a description of the fitting/length etc. never know one might be o.k., but then they are old stock so the rubber might have deteriorated. I usually test them by bending them, if they break or crack I just scrap the hose and chuck the ends in a coffee can. Pre covid you would be welcome to rummage through them- they owe me nothing in the great scheme of things.

Ken

 

[DoubleChevron]

"The rear left is wheel is the one that is causing issues.
The wheel is warm to touch. So that's an easy fix.
That dodgy brake line will not be allowing the pressure to release (that sure has made the car a right PITA to move around various sheds over the last 20years!)."

This flex hose issue may have been mentioned earlier in this long thread, that I have not fully read.

Usually rear brakes only have one flex brake hose ~ from the chassis to the axle ~ then steel lines to the wheel cylinders.
This means if that brake hose was a problem ~ both sides would be affected equally.

So, I would venture to offer that on a restoration project of a rarely used very old vehicle ~ likely rear left only brake issue/s:
1. adjustment or brake shoes have rust between them & the drum, causing drag.
2. a sticky or corroded wheel cylinder/piston is also a cause for brake dragging & drum heating.

Easy check:
Releasing then quickly re-tightening the bleeder nipple on the wheel cylinder will release any excess pressure ~ no difference then it's not the hose.
If there is a difference then brake pedal free travel or faulty flex line [less likely] need checking.

That being said all flex lines need replacing on a vehicle this old ~ as well the main steel line on the Light 15 running front to rear should be replaced as well.

Sorry I should have explained better. This is a Citroen .... These were built from the 1930's, and even then they weren't rear drive with cart springs.

The reason it looks to sit so low .... is they are front wheel drive with torsion bar suspension.... I just typed independent suspension and deleted it ... as there is a frail looking angle iron rear "axle" housing there. So each corner had its own dedicated brake flexible brake line.

The "non buggered" side if you look at the picture will have been locally made.

See how the hose is looped.... I'm betting whoever made it didn't trust the line to be flexing through such a short length. And I'm drivinig myself crazy here... it is independent suspenion. that looks like a trailing arm with the torsion bar running the width of the car in that picture.

 

[citroenthusiast]

I'll pull the line off and take it upto the local brake/hydraulic shop. I bet they can re-use the ends

The 11B brake lines are a strange collection of metric fittings and parts made to SAE standards from 'Merca. For example, 11BL Brake lines are SAE ¼ inch tube 45° standard flare with 7/16-20 threads. The flare nuts are P5-4 steel nut (https://store.fedhillusa.com/p54.aspx) Adapters for front brake lines have internal threads for Girling brake lines (11/16" – 16 UN) and an external metric thread with crush washer to adapt the brake cylinder, the opposite end has an external 7/16-20 thread for the flare fitting.

 

[gerrypro]

Sorry I should have explained better. This is a Citroen .... These were built from the 1930's, and even then they weren't rear drive with cart springs.

The reason it looks to sit so low .... is they are front wheel drive with torsion bar suspension.... I just typed independent suspension and deleted it ... as there is a frail looking angle iron rear "axle" housing there. So each corner had its own dedicated brake flexible brake line.

The "non buggered" side if you look at the picture will have been locally made.

See how the hose is looped.... I'm betting whoever made it didn't trust the line to be flexing through such a short length. And I'm driving myself crazy here... it is independent suspension. that looks like a trailing arm with the torsion bar running the width of the car in that picture.

You have the long brake hose fitted so they have been redone at some stage. The rear suspension is semi independent linked by a light beam axle and stabilised by a Panhard rod. There are two torsion bars fixed back to back at the centre of the support tube.

Here is the shorter style brake hose.

 

[DoubleChevron]

You have the long brake hose fitted so they have been redone at some stage. The rear suspension is semi independent linked by a light beam axle and stabilised by a Panhard rod. There are two torsion bars fixed back to back at the centre of the support tube.
View attachment 126205

Here is the shorter style brake hose.

Thanks. That picture speaks a thousand words. The failed hose is a short one on this car. It will all get replaced .... You need to be able to trust the brakes!

 

[DoubleChevron]

The 11B brake lines are a strange collection of metric fittings and parts made to SAE standards from 'Merca. For example, 11BL Brake lines are SAE ¼ inch tube 45° standard flare with 7/16-20 threads. The flare nuts are P5-4 steel nut (https://store.fedhillusa.com/p54.aspx) Adapters for front brake lines have internal threads for Girling brake lines (11/16" – 16 UN) and an external metric thread with crush washer to adapt the brake cylinder, the opposite end has an external 7/16-20 thread for the flare fitting.

I'll go for a drive upto the local hydraulics/brake shop. Hopefully they'll have a mixture of everything there on the shelf.

 

[RINGER]

No need to explain.
I have owned 2 of these Citroens in the last few years a 1953 & currently a 1949.

It would appear that they were both similarly modified somewhere along the line exactly the same way.
The 1953 was very original & when I first received it ~ the large diameter central steel line was rusted through up front blew when unloading from a trailer.
Pedal straight to the floor!

Both had a central flex line as I previously described running from the chassis to a 3 way connection mounted in the centre of the rear axle ~ then solid steel lines ran out to the wheel cylinders ~ just like most cars of that era.

I would still be checking out the brake linings to drum rust & wheel cylinders sticking on anything that has not run for years.

 

[gerrypro]

No need to explain.
I have owned 2 of these Citroens in the last few years a 1953 & currently a 1949.

It would appear that they were both similarly modified somewhere along the line exactly the same way.
The 1953 was very original & when I first received it ~ the large diameter central steel line was rusted through up front blew when unloading from a trailer.
Pedal straight to the floor!

Both had a central flex line as I previously described running from the chassis to a 3 way connection mounted in the centre of the rear axle ~ then solid steel lines ran out to the wheel cylinders ~ just like most cars of that era.

I would still be checking out the brake linings to drum rust & wheel cylinders sticking on anything that has not run for years.

The only flexible lines ( hoses) are the ones shown in the above pictures and the ones to the front brake cylinders. Slough cars have three flexible brake hoses and Paris cars have four. All other lines are solid fixed lines originally sheathed with a wound steel wire, encasing the outer of the pipe. They are not designed to flex! In my installation above I elected not to renew the wound wire casing.