Longstroke ds/id census

[Leconte]

Hi Syd,

Well if you can avoid the time from 6:30am to 9:30 am and 4:30 pm to 6:30 pm Mon to Fri plus 10 am to 3 pm Sat anywhere within 15km of the melb cbd, then go for it!


During those times I think that Melbourne traffic is the worst in Australia and the inner east and south east suburbs that I struggle through are choked during those periods and full of aggresive frustrated drivers, plus the same around school times in the afternoon around 3pmish. I only have manual cars (only owned one auto for 5 years in 40 years of motoring) so changing gear is in my DNA but the column change and heavy clutch on the ID is not condusive to stop/start/creep along traffic.

For drives to Geelong, Castlemaine and the like, perfect! But you have to understand them thoroughly to be able to cope when something goes wrong because you won't get meaningful help "out there" (referring to the hydraulics and brakes here) - at least not quickly.

Plus if you are relying on it as your only car (did I pick that up somewhere?) then you may well spend considerable time with the car off the road when you need parts, because most parts have to come from Europe with associated delays and expense. Just need to reconcile yourself to these things (if indeed this would be your primary car).

Regards

leconte

 

[gsowner84]

Hi Leconte,

Thank you for your reply. I have a 2CV as well, and can borrow my dad's Suzuki Jimny if required.

I will primarily work in the Melbourne CBD from Feb 2017. So I can tend to drive only when I want to (which is wonderful). Occassionally, I will have to drive to Burwood which is not too far from me and Geelong.

I am certainly of the view that I would need to drive an ID19 to determine whether I can cope with the heavy clutch. I think the steering will be fine. I prefer driving manuals over autos, and I would like to teach my partner and sister how to drive a manual as well. But the 2CV has such a forgiving clutch, that they can learn how to drive a manual on that (or an old banger).

I have found generally post 68 DS/IDs wonderful to drive and hopefully, I can enjoy the wonders of an pre-68 DS and ID. Even if I do not end up buying one.

Regards,
Syd

Hi Syd,

Well if you can avoid the time from 6:30am to 9:30 am and 4:30 pm to 6:30 pm Mon to Fri plus 10 am to 3 pm Sat anywhere within 15km of the melb cbd, then go for it!


During those times I think that Melbourne traffic is the worst in Australia and the inner east and south east suburbs that I struggle through are choked during those periods and full of aggresive frustrated drivers, plus the same around school times in the afternoon around 3pmish. I only have manual cars (only owned one auto for 5 years in 40 years of motoring) so changing gear is in my DNA but the column change and heavy clutch on the ID is not condusive to stop/start/creep along traffic.

For drives to Geelong, Castlemaine and the like, perfect! But you have to understand them thoroughly to be able to cope when something goes wrong because you won't get meaningful help "out there" (referring to the hydraulics and brakes here) - at least not quickly.

Plus if you are relying on it as your only car (did I pick that up somewhere?) then you may well spend considerable time with the car off the road when you need parts, because most parts have to come from Europe with associated delays and expense. Just need to reconcile yourself to these things (if indeed this would be your primary car).

Regards

leconte

 

[gilberthenry]

Living in Castlemaine, surrounded by open plains to the North and the West, the Early ID is a wonderful car to drive. The early braking system is adequate and the non-power steering is perfect. The "longlegged" gearbox, as long as the correct tyres are fitted, makes for high speed cruising. The soft suspension is pure and as designed, in the early 50's.
With the driver's window down, the glow of the sun coming through the transluscent roof and the sound of the unrefined engine, I'm driving as though I've turned the clock back 55years.
To me, the pleasure of driving an early ID is what Citroen is all about.
Having had a D Special again not so long ago for a short time, I absolutely loved it in city traffic. Responsive with acceleration and braking and quick to change lanes, the D Special is great fun.
Out on the open road; I kept wanting a "top" gear". No fun at all. Yes, it has the "looks" and as a city car it's great but I wasn't sorry to see it go.
To me, the D Special is "common". They will always be available and look beautiful but the early French ID is the one that's SPECIAL
Michael Paas

I know where Michael's coming from. To get in a pre '66 car is very special and less people are taking the bother to try.

Written below by me some years ago but probably relevant.
It wasn't till a few years ago that we actually bought a D Special as it had a CD player and could be a good dogsbody car to take Janet's ageing mother on jaunts. It's actually a good car but not something that really excites me. But then it always goes so I'm not complaining.

D's - a point of view - - - Nov '94

Is it the unique beauty, the absolute craziness, or just sheer enjoyment of a smooth ride that urges one into wanting to discover every facet of this intricate family of cars.

Is it, when changing into fifth gear of a ' 74 DS23, feeling like you're on a runway, and forever believing,
the wheels are about to --- lift off .

Or having the satisfaction of the plush interior, comfort, and ride of a ' 71 DS21 Hydraulique on the highway,
a gearchange so smooth that it is joy itself.

An ID19 1961, the extra soft ride, the torque of the long stroke motor and the heavy flywheel that,
when being wound out, is asking to be driven faster ----- ever faster.

Or a classic ' 57 DS19 with its no fuss exterior and a strange hydraulic gear change that makes you realize that a "true" Citroen can't change any other way,
and when, about to walk away, you are struck down by the sheer simplicity and beauty of a dashboard which would echo its way through an ever changing world and come to its final resting place in a long distant relative,
the GS
A 1974 DS23 Automatic Pallas making city driving - - - - sheer joy.

Or the year 1967, when it all seemed to reach a peak.
Chrome buttons and switches on the "slopy" dash which was to enjoy only one more year before
"modernisation" definitely set in.
Plush carpets, stainless steel kick plates and valences, leather and cloth which showed pride in workmanship,
in a company which was about to conform slowly to the wants of an evermore changing society.

Music on, and just -------- just thinking, one could drive, on and on -------- and on.

Through the dazed eyes of an addict, John Paas.

 

[ajaxvte]

Back to practicalities (!), don't forget the weather. They're uncomfortable to drive in the middle of an Australian summer. In fact, as soon as it is above 26 degrees or so outside, the car gets hotter inside. And exponentially so when things get up beyond the mid 30s. This is almost entirely due to heat soak from the engine bay through the firewall. It is one of the main drawbacks of these otherwise great cars.

 

[gsowner84]

Ahh John,

Fantastic write up on these wonderful cars.

I feel that as I long as I pick up a good, sound car, whether it is a longstroke, or short stroke, pre-68 or post-68, I should be okay.

I think though the 1967-8 are the pick with the BVH, but sadly well out of my price bracket.

Would still like to drive an early ID or DS just to compare, or to drive a DS with BVH.

Regards, Syd

I know where Michael's coming from. To get in a pre '66 car is very special and less people are taking the bother to try.

Written below by me some years ago but probably relevant.
It wasn't till a few years ago that we actually bought a D Special as it had a CD player and could be a good dogsbody car to take Janet's ageing mother on jaunts. It's actually a good car but not something that really excites me. But then it always goes so I'm not complaining.

D's - a point of view - - - Nov '94

Is it the unique beauty, the absolute craziness, or just sheer enjoyment of a smooth ride that urges one into wanting to discover every facet of this intricate family of cars.

Is it, when changing into fifth gear of a ' 74 DS23, feeling like you're on a runway, and forever believing,
the wheels are about to --- lift off .

Or having the satisfaction of the plush interior, comfort, and ride of a ' 71 DS21 Hydraulique on the highway,
a gearchange so smooth that it is joy itself.

An ID19 1961, the extra soft ride, the torque of the long stroke motor and the heavy flywheel that,
when being wound out, is asking to be driven faster ----- ever faster.

Or a classic ' 57 DS19 with its no fuss exterior and a strange hydraulic gear change that makes you realize that a "true" Citroen can't change any other way,
and when, about to walk away, you are struck down by the sheer simplicity and beauty of a dashboard which would echo its way through an ever changing world and come to its final resting place in a long distant relative,
the GS
A 1974 DS23 Automatic Pallas making city driving - - - - sheer joy.

Or the year 1967, when it all seemed to reach a peak.
Chrome buttons and switches on the "slopy" dash which was to enjoy only one more year before
"modernisation" definitely set in.
Plush carpets, stainless steel kick plates and valences, leather and cloth which showed pride in workmanship,
in a company which was about to conform slowly to the wants of an evermore changing society.

Music on, and just -------- just thinking, one could drive, on and on -------- and on.

Through the dazed eyes of an addict, John Paas.

 

[gsowner84]

Hi Ajaxvte,

Thanks for the advice. I am not surprised that these cars suffer from heat soak. I will always park my cars under cover, or under shelter. No compromises. With older cars, sacrifices will be required compared with modern transport.

Regards, Syd

 

[Greg C]

Back to practicalities (!), don't forget the weather. They're uncomfortable to drive in the middle of an Australian summer. In fact, as soon as it is above 26 degrees or so outside, the car gets hotter inside. And exponentially so when things get up beyond the mid 30s. This is almost entirely due to heat soak from the engine bay through the firewall. It is one of the main drawbacks of these otherwise great cars.

Thats the mark of a true Citroen. Ditto GS and CX. The only thing to do is fit air-conditioning. Easy on a CX, a little more difficult on a D, very difficult, but not impossible on a GS.

The main thing that puts old cars as a no goer in traffic is the brakes. No problem on a D, obviously better with the fully powered brakes, of course. Then just fit air-conditioning, if the cooling system is in top condition, and take some ideas from the CX (series parallel fans) it wouldn't be the difficult. Won't be as good as a modern car but 8/10 is better than nothing

 

[gilberthenry]

Ahh John,

Fantastic write up on these wonderful cars.

I feel that as I long as I pick up a good, sound car, whether it is a longstroke, or short stroke, pre-68 or post-68, I should be okay.

I think though the 1967-8 are the pick with the BVH, but sadly well out of my price bracket.

Would still like to drive an early ID or DS just to compare, or to drive a DS with BVH.

Regards, Syd

I've been thinking as a few of us have over this.
It comes to whether a person owns a "modern" everyday car. Most do. If not, life is more of a challenge as one must prioritise which car is going to take the brunt of the particular circumstance for that particular day.
If one has the "modern", then on a bad weather day or whatever, that will be the car that goes out.
Janet and I have a number of cars of which the most modern is the 1978 Citroen C35 van.
Our '56 Humber Hawk seems to be the dogsbody car at the moment here in Victoria and in Brisbane the '74 D Special.
So to drive a D model daily, one needs to have a backup - - maybe a 2CV or another D or a Humber or 1940 Morris 8 like us. I find in the short life that I have I don't want to be driving a modern car which I don't like when there are many exciting cars I can choose from at reasonable prices that I can enjoy every day.
So yes, I think, unless you have a very good workshop around the corner as most of us would have had access to in years gone by you will need 2 or 3 or more cars to not need a modern car.
At the moment the Big 6 needs tappets done, The "68 Safari has a weeping steering rack and the right rear boot leaks when the car is on high. The Humber needs a grease and the '74 Pallas is now going fine after I finally found the plugs fouled up after I was a fool at miss diagnosing. The Morris is going fine.
If you go down the track of all the many insurances one might need this becomes a little more expensive.
Yes, we don't have a modern car which makes life difficult at times but we manage to drive old cars satisfactorily and enjoy them very much.

John

 

[garyk]

Yup, for me, it depends on the task.

If I'm doing the grocery shopping on a hot day, via city traffic, the air con auto is best.

If its a relaxed weekend, and hot enough for shorts, then the D with the windows down will be fine.
I reckon you can get an oldie to be reliable enough as a daily drive (as indeed, they were back in their time).

I'm curious to see whether my CX can be brought into line as a daily drive as it is ac / auto.

Any Citroen is always gonna have brownie points because of the ergonomics and comfort / ride.
Anything with light steering and good brakes is a bonus.

I once drove an early Corvette in city traffic. Stunning looking car.
Terrifying ... no synchro, cross ply tyres, no power steer and a brute engine with no brakes.

Got back into the D with huge relief. If you can't steer and brake in fast moving traffic then its no-go.

Insurance wise ... Shannons are unbelievably cheap if you have multiple cars (including your old D) that only gets driven now and again.

 

[Greg C]

I don't think it is that hard to use an old Citroen as a daily driver. They are very well engineered and simple compared to modern stuff. My CX Prestige was the daily driver from 1997 when bought until 2012 when I bought the Prius. It was in very good condition when bought and I looked after it, keeping it in that condition as much as possible. An old D might be even better, in that they can be even simpler if you pick an ID or D Special. The only proviso is that it must be air-conditioned, again not that difficult. That is one of the main reasons the CX was kept on the job, it has air. Also if I add up the cost of maintenance, including an engine rebuild and re trim of the interior, and include the purchase price, it has been the cheapest car to run of the current fleet. Another good reason to drive an old car.

The other issue is the environment. You can easily offset the emissions from any car through Greenfleet. Cost $140/year. Actually the CX was involved in a test at the RTA labs where they called on car clubs to bring old cars to be tested. The CX was so good, it was put through the test twice to make sure. I fitted a 3 way catalyst after this, and means it has the same emissions as a modern car. Ds at the test also performed well you could do the same for them.

 

[garyk]

"The everyday driver" thing is a thread in its own right. ;-)
93.45% of all cars build were, of course, intended as "daily drivers."

I was reading thru my old Wheels mags, and I was impressed that a lot of "daily drivers" in the outback were
1920's Chevs. And off road at that.

Personally, if I had the $$ I'd have a cross section of cars, as I don't think any one car answers all callings.
Not to say that they couldn't be dailies, just depends on your fancy-tickling for the day.
Long highways Kms are one thing. Fast twisty back roads another.
Shopping in Sydney traffic ..... :disappr:
Carting around the band gear ...

I have to say that apart from being a big beastie, the C5 2.2HDI auto answers quite a multiplicity of uses for me.
And does nearly everything very well.

I do fondly recall the pleasures of the long stroke motor, and I'd agree that with some updates (like a/c) they could be a good all round choice. I drove R4s for many years in city traffic. Careful planning of use of the brakes was imperative.
Despite the compactness, I always thought the GS was a better tourer than a city car.

I'd have a DS3 for city runabout (and I'm sure, for a fanger on unpatrolled roads).

My colleague likes his Berlingo with the Xantia 2l motor for a daily....

 

[David S]

For sale with spares and worth a look for anyone after an ID19 project:
http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/ca...elberg-build-%96-1964-%96-burwood-vic%5D.html
Is chassis 193005236 Series 6923 Colour 222 4318 White

 

[tomatoes4all]

Hello all,
I know I am reviving an old thread here, but it seemed the most appropriate location on the forum.
I've just brought home an ID19 tonight, a Heidelberg car, body number 197 284 70, series 6530, colour 222 4318, angora white. It has been off the road for at least 12 years and was unfortunately stored outside under a tree for the past 10 of those 12...
However, being in western Victoria, with very low rainfall, the rust situation is not too bad (so far at least).
The interior and all wiring has been fully decimated by rats, but the wheels turn, the tyres had still some air in it, so it was not too hard to get it on the trailer.
I'm very interested to hear if anyone knows this car. It spent some time in NSW (old NRMA logo on the rear window) but has expired Victorian plates RHZ165. Since there is no paper work with the car, I don't know the year it was build either, but I presume 1962 or 1963. There is no manual timing adjustment on the dashboard and there is no "jam jar" for the brake fluid reservoir.
This car will need a lot of work, and then some, but I'm very keen to get it back on the road, and preserving some of the Heidelberg history.
Wish me luck please, I'm going to need it. Cheers, Erik.

 

[Armidillo]

Good grief Erik - that does sound like a pretty major project!

You definitely need to start a new thread for this car - it will need (and deserve) it! Your new thread will also need to include some photos documenting the car as it is now - rust, rats and all!

Cheers

Alec

 

[kenlin]

Hello all,
I know I am reviving an old thread here, but it seemed the most appropriate location on the forum.
I've just brought home an ID19 tonight, a Heidelberg car, body number 197 284 70, series 6530, colour 222 4318, angora white. It has been off the road for at least 12 years and was unfortunately stored outside under a tree for the past 10 of those 12...
However, being in western Victoria, with very low rainfall, the rust situation is not too bad (so far at least).
The interior and all wiring has been fully decimated by rats, but the wheels turn, the tyres had still some air in it, so it was not too hard to get it on the trailer.
I'm very interested to hear if anyone knows this car. It spent some time in NSW (old NRMA logo on the rear window) but has expired Victorian plates RHZ165. Since there is no paper work with the car, I don't know the year it was build either, but I presume 1962 or 1963. There is no manual timing adjustment on the dashboard and there is no "jam jar" for the brake fluid reservoir.
This car will need a lot of work, and then some, but I'm very keen to get it back on the road, and preserving some of the Heidelberg history.
Wish me luck please, I'm going to need it. Cheers, Erik.

Hi Erik
Good luck with your project. Very sad to read your description of the ID's present state but it sounds as though you have great plans to bring this one back to life.
I was able to establish that this car was sold for Pounds1592/19/6 in October 1962 by Citco in Sydney to somebody in Penrith NSW (coincidentally very close to where I live now). The rego at the time was NSW yellow plate CVL-947 and the car was indeed white.
Good luck with the restoration!
Ken

 

[tomatoes4all]

Thank you Ken, for the history of this car! It's just amazing that you have these records; 1962!
I'll start a new thread Alec, with some pictures this weekend. I reckon this car qualifies for the ultimate "rat-look"....
Cheers, Erik.

 

[David S]

This is the right thread to mention the car, but if you want to run a restoration thread, there is a specific restoration section of the forum to do that in.

Are you sure it doesn't have the later brakes run off the hydraulic system with a doseur valve under the pedal rather than the pendant pedal and master cylinder system? Some people will have converted the earlier master cylinder system to a powered brake system with doseur valve as used in later IDs. That may explain the missing reservoir.

 

[IDear]

Glad to hear that you brought the car home. The '62 ID has the shorter straight gear lever and first gear is pulled towards you and down.
Arrived here at Nelson with the Slough Safarii fully laden including the cat and dog.
Michael Paas

 

[Leconte]

For sale with spares and worth a look for anyone after an ID19 project:
http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/ca...elberg-build-%96-1964-%96-burwood-vic%5D.html
Looks like 193005238 Series 6923 Colour 222 4318 White

Aussiefrogs member RossB has bought this car ( and recently another spare parts car it seems) and is posting about it in a restoration forum thread, so it is undergoing loving attention now. :headbang: Hopefully another one saved and back on the road "in the fullness of time". Tough creatures these Heidelberg D's.

Cheers leconte

 

[kenlin]

And it was first sold by Citco (NSW) on 25/02/1964 to a company in the Wauchope NSW area for 1698 Pounds.