The dry sump Gordini motor.

No Peter,

Bought it off Ebay a long time ago. I see that the latest has a digital read out.

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JohnW yes it will have to be done in that cruel way.

Frans.
 
This dry sump engine is becoming like a ghost. You hear about it but never see it!!

I have spent a few days on the head and had to do a few tests and calculations over again to get back into the "what have I done and what not" frame of mind.

I eventually cut the slots into the new valves and cut them to the required lengths as well. This was a job that I was scared of because of the hardness of the stems. It worked out well and at last, I assembled the valves today. These valves are a bit of a mix-and-match as I have used Nissan valves for the intakes and Mazda for the exhaust. The reason for this is to get the correct size valve with a 7mm stem. The 16 valve heads do have thinner stems and I managed to get a 37mm dia for the intakes and 34mm for the exhausts. Slightly bigger than the standard.

The head can now go on and be torqued and I can then complete the plumbing for the oil route to and from the engine. I have all the hoses and external oil filter. The remote oil filter adapter has its mountings completed as well.

I re-checked the valve spring pressures and they are the same as in the previous posts a page or two back.

thumbnail_IMG_1444.jpg


Regards, Frans.
 
just a heads up,you have probably got it covered ,but i recall cutting valves to length to fit ,an oldHonda coupe we had in the day ,we neglected to put hard face on the tips of the valves and the rockers pounded a flare on the ends as we had cut them down beyond the hard facing ,it was a mission to get the valves out ,with flaired ends ,my father did the job i think he ground the flair off with a demel before removeing the valve and putting a dab of weld on the working surface !
 
@dauphproto Now that I have made the valves fit, I fitted the head and then noticed I had misplaced 2 head bolts. Spent a day searching but had no luck. To make things worse they are M11 and not easily found. I have been looking around and found Nissan Skyline ones that will do but they are stretch bolts. I have been pondering the idea of what will happen if I use them and just torque them as if they are normal head bolts. New from MecaParts is unaffordable.
Then I have to make the pushrods and complete the assembly, water pump, carbs, etc. Installing the engine will require some plumbing and fitting. I'll install the tank on the rear seat floor base and bring the hoses through the back firewall. I'll mount the remote filter somewhere in the engine compartment and that is it! Luckily I have collected all that over time.
I do have some questions about dry sump engines. Apparently, there is an issue with oil flowing to the sump because it is the lowest point, Can I mount a hand valve or (being fancy, a solenoid Valve) on the outlet of the tank that can be closed to prevent the backflow and open just before starting? How long does it take to build up oil pressure after starting from cold standing for a week or more? I realise that I will have to prime the pump on the initial installation and before starting. How do I check my oil level, when running or while the engine is off?

@pugwash I realised that and bought lashcaps for that but it was impossible to fit them with the springs I had. I will need much shorter springs so that the valve tip protrudes enough to fit the caps and in doing so the shorter springs stand the chance of binding with the cam lift I have. I have tried it with the caps but then the rocker is at an awkward angle because of the taller valve stem. I convinced myself and hoped I was right that when I cut them to size with the angle grinder (that I mounted on the lathe) I noticed that the color of the sparks is a very dark red right through the cutting process. Dark red means very hard. Fingers crossed!!

While I'm on the keyboard, is there anybody out there that might have two cylinder head bolts M11 lying around doing nothing? You'll make my day.

Regards, Frans.
 
Frans
I would think you would be able to use headbolts from some VW, Mazda or Fiat they use M11X1.5
The Drysump phenomenon you are referring to is `wet sumping' I am getting this with my Dauphine. There are a few schools of thought on this. The good point is that gravity is helping to keep the pressure pump wet, You will be aware that oil pumps, Push much better than they Pull. I have seen several Drysump Escorts run shells as the tank is at one end and the engine is at the other the Scavenge pump/s push the oil to the tank fine, but the little pressure pump has to pull oil 3m from the tank to the pump which it struggles to do when cold, so you need to have a strict warm up procedure....
I elected to put my tank just in front of the rear crossmember to keep the pipe runs as short as possible. I have used -12 hose for the scavenge return to the intercooler then the tank to help with de-aeration. I have also used -12 for the feed from the tank to the pump. It is all -10 for the pump to filter to engine, as it is at pressure .
When you park up hot the tank will empty in a few hours into what was the sump, so the thing to do when you are home and everything has cooled off, is to run the engine for a minute to fill the tank with cold oil. On my car it takes nearly 6 weeks to empty the tank cold. I will probably start the car every couple of weeks, perhaps more during the season, so do not see any issues with this.
I have found over the winter that If I take the plugs out it takes about 5, 10 second bursts on the starter to refill the tank, so the scavenge system is impressive. I have also noticed that the oil pressure is instantaneous, so enough remains in the tank to prime.
If you fit a valve or solenoid in the flow to the pump it presents a great restriction to flow in the open position and if you forget it will be a Disaster of the first order
I have thought about blocking the breather over winter to see if it would cause a vacuum and keep the oil in the tank, as it would be less of an issue if you forgot to unblock it and started the Motor, mind you if you forget it will eventually raise the pressure in the tank to the operating oil pressure which your tank won't like.......... I have seen this happen.
As for oil level most tanks have a weirplate in them for de aeration. When the engine and system is hot the oil should be seen weiring over the plate with the oil level just below it.
My tank is in a place where I can't just look in, so I made a dipstick that fits through the lid for Mr Lazybones here..
I also have a cheap endoscope which allows me to look in the tank with the system running, that's how i worked out the dipstick markings..

Drysump plumbing (1) (1024x771).jpg


and the complete installation tank is behind fuel regulator and you can see the intercooler on the top hose line as it dives down to the sill area

IMG_20231014_142305242_MFNR (1024x771).jpg


Dunno if it helps, but there it is.
 
@dauphproto that helps a lot. Little things that I don't have to suss out the hard way. Originally my tank is designed to fit on top of the cross-member on the LH side for weight distribution but then it is a tight squeeze to check the oil and to fill it as well and it will be close to the extractor's heat, so I thought that I would fit it on the rear seat base which is not that much further away with no access issues and good visibility. The valve shut-off valve I have is a straight-through valve and I doubt there will be any restrictions. That brings me to the next thing I have in my mind. My existing wet sump is so covered that I thought it would run dry at some stage because the oil return from the head, cam, and crank might not fill the sump quickly enough. That never happened yet on all the the tracks in 15 years. (I've done 15 seasons with it this year minus 2 for COVID.) That made me think that because of the small tolerances that give you the high pressure, the flow of the oil is relatively very slow. I thought that the pipes I'm using with 10mm ID is an overkill. Maybe I'm wrong.
The reason I mention this is that because of the low flow/high-pressure rate, the solenoid valve might be okay.

I completed the intake push-rods yesterday and installed them as well. I have weighed them and see the results in the photos. I guess every few grams helps because the push rod's upward speed needs to be stopped and returned as well as the rest of the valve train. And all this at 25% of the MecaParts price.

I love the clean and neat look of your Dauph's backside. Mine looked okay when it was new but not that good.

thumbnail_IMG_1447.jpg


thumbnail_IMG_1448.jpg


IMG_0027.JPG


This is what it looked like before the first race.

Regards, Frans.
 
I'm not sure what style of pump is used in this application, but I've had several dry sump motorcycles and they only wet sump if something is wrong with the pump?
My current Harley and Triumph can sit for months and the oil tank dipstick will still read full.
 
Because it is like that from the factory, I am sure that it will have a type of safety feature for the benefit of the customer that uses a pen as his tool.
This is a self made modification unlike the cars that are made with a dry sump like the Porsches for instance.
Frans.
 
Frans said:
This is a self made modification unlike the cars that are made with a dry sump like the Porsches for instance.
Frans.
Click to expand...
I realise that, but the only way for the oil to get into the sump is through the pump.
Hard to imagine the clearances are such that the oil can just run through it?🤔
Older dry sump bikes used either two piston or rotary pumps, both employing a simple non return ball check valve.
They will only wet sump if there is dirt in the valve or the pump is badly worn.
I have a couple of mates that have aftermarket belt driven dry sump systems on their Ford V8 drag cars.
They both have their oil tanks mounted low in the front corner of the engine bay with the oil outlet facing the rear of the car so the oil goes towards the tank outlet under severe acceleration.
These cars are used infrequently and neither have a wet sumping problem of any significance..
However if their tanks were mounted too high up I could see how the tank could empty into the sump due to the increased head pressure as well as the fact that (if the tank was way too high up) the oil level in the engine and the tank aren't even capable of equalising, so the entire contents would end up in the engine.

Incidentally MK1 VW Golf/Passat diesels, and all MK1 and MK2 base petrol engines used M11 x 1.5 cylinder head bolts.
They easy and cheap to find online, but whether the length is suitable?🤷‍♂️
 
dauphproto said:
Frans
I would think you would be able to use headbolts from some VW, Mazda or Fiat they use M11X1.5


View attachment 238152

and the complete installation tank is behind fuel regulator and you can see the intercooler on the top hose line as it dives down to the sill area
Click to expand...
The pump in this picture is a 3 stage Pace. We use the same in the 205's we race. Interestingly, AT Power use most of the same internals. When Pace went into liquidation a few years ago, I rebuilt my pump with all AT parts.

Pumps definitely push better than they suck/pull. I have my tank, over the LH rear wheel in order to better distribute some of the vehicle mass. There's probably 0.5m of head.

The pump pictured is a scroll and rotor type. Clearances are significantly tighter than a gear pump. There is typically approx. 1L of oil in dry sump pan before start up. For this reason, I added a 10AN fitting to the pan to help with oil changes.

XU5/XU9 PSA engines use M11x1.5 head bolts, as do some Honda engines. There are plenty of options with ARP.
 
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I have just had another look at one of my most enjoyable races. A race where you had to keep to inside lines and a few tricks trying to outbrake etc. Then at the end of lap 6, I was caught with my pants down and he got the inside line with the result all over. Thi sis a replay of that race.


Frans.
 
Frans. Checking up with someone who knows old 911's well, they all wet sump quite badly, but if you think about it it leaks the oil through the pump and galleries/ bearings keeping them all wet which is no bad thing, meaning over winter your engine is full of oil, is that bad??? It doesn't bother the 911's anyway
 
Frans said:
I have just had another look at one of my most enjoyable races. A race where you had to keep to inside lines and a few tricks trying to outbrake etc. Then at the end of lap 6, I was caught with my pants down and he got the inside line with the result all over. Thi sis a replay of that race.


Frans.
Click to expand...
Well done keeping that 131 at bay for so long, you definitely shut off all his overtaking options.

Great to the watch the videos after the race🎉
 
dauphproto said:
Frans
I would think you would be able to use headbolts from some VW, Mazda or Fiat they use M11X1.5
The Drysump phenomenon you are referring to is `wet sumping' I am getting this with my Dauphine. There are a few schools of thought on this. The good point is that gravity is helping to keep the pressure pump wet, You will be aware that oil pumps, Push much better than they Pull. I have seen several Drysump Escorts run shells as the tank is at one end and the engine is at the other the Scavenge pump/s push the oil to the tank fine, but the little pressure pump has to pull oil 3m from the tank to the pump which it struggles to do when cold, so you need to have a strict warm up procedure....
I elected to put my tank just in front of the rear crossmember to keep the pipe runs as short as possible. I have used -12 hose for the scavenge return to the intercooler then the tank to help with de-aeration. I have also used -12 for the feed from the tank to the pump. It is all -10 for the pump to filter to engine, as it is at pressure .
When you park up hot the tank will empty in a few hours into what was the sump, so the thing to do when you are home and everything has cooled off, is to run the engine for a minute to fill the tank with cold oil. On my car it takes nearly 6 weeks to empty the tank cold. I will probably start the car every couple of weeks, perhaps more during the season, so do not see any issues with this.
I have found over the winter that If I take the plugs out it takes about 5, 10 second bursts on the starter to refill the tank, so the scavenge system is impressive. I have also noticed that the oil pressure is instantaneous, so enough remains in the tank to prime.
If you fit a valve or solenoid in the flow to the pump it presents a great restriction to flow in the open position and if you forget it will be a Disaster of the first order
I have thought about blocking the breather over winter to see if it would cause a vacuum and keep the oil in the tank, as it would be less of an issue if you forgot to unblock it and started the Motor, mind you if you forget it will eventually raise the pressure in the tank to the operating oil pressure which your tank won't like.......... I have seen this happen.
As for oil level most tanks have a weirplate in them for de aeration. When the engine and system is hot the oil should be seen weiring over the plate with the oil level just below it.
My tank is in a place where I can't just look in, so I made a dipstick that fits through the lid for Mr Lazybones here..
I also have a cheap endoscope which allows me to look in the tank with the system running, that's how i worked out the dipstick markings..

View attachment 238152

and the complete installation tank is behind fuel regulator and you can see the intercooler on the top hose line as it dives down to the sill area

View attachment 238153

Dunno if it helps, but there it is.
Click to expand...
I marvel at all this. Wow.
 
I made some spare time and completed the pushrods, and installed them. The rest of the components that I had and made are installed and looking good. That is the water pump, oil pump chain guard, rear plate on the head, and some hoses.

I have decided to go ahead and be the R & D fella. I have ordered a set of stretch bolts for the head. My way of thinking is as follows.......................... If a VW Golf head is torqued down it would or should also be in the vicinity of 70 - 80 Nm of pressure forcing down onto the gasket. That should equal the 30 Nm + 90 + 90 + 90 degrees. The stretch of the bolts and their characteristics are what creates the pressure downforce. If I do the same, it would hopefully be damn close to what the original torque with the normal bolts is. The only change that I'll be doing is, I will do 6 x 45 degrees instead of 3 x 90 degrees. That will be easier on the head which is 73mm thick and the VW head which is maybe 100 mm thick.

I hope to get some thumbs-up from you guys that would confirm my way of thinking, unless there is a very logical explanation that I am going to cause some sh!t.

A few photos.

thumbnail_IMG_1458.jpg


thumbnail_IMG_1457.jpg


thumbnail_IMG_1460.jpg


Regards, Frans.

thumbnail_IMG_1459.jpg
 
Remember only about 10% of the torque applied is clamping force, the other 90% is friction.
Friction plays very little part in the initial low torque setting, so the degree settings subsequently applied will give even pressure across the cylinder head, independent of any possible variation in the amount of friction an individual bolt may develop at higher loads.
So long as the block and cylinder head materials are comparable with the Golf, I can't see any holes in your plan.
Just remember to prepare all the bolts/threads the same so that initial low torque setting is consistent on all the bolts. If you're oiling or lubricating the threads put a little under the bolt heads/washers as well.
 
All looking good. I would Run a tap down all the block threads and use lube on the threads and under the bolt heads. If it works it will be better than original for sure. You will just have to feel your way, might be worth doing the first 90 and if it felt good, go for the second 90 after that my bottle would be twitching, so 45's after that sounds like a great idea.
 
Lucky you retired Frans! :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: Looks like a great engine that has come over the last few years! Thanks for the photos.
 
It made me feel better when I got the "go-ahead" from #Greenpeace and #dauphproto. It means that my idea isn't just grabbing at twigs as I'm falling out of a tree.

But now I'm in a little bit of a dilemma. The stretch bolts are on their way, and, I found the misplaced bolts. I even have 4 spares. What to do now? Go ahead with the new idea or fall back to the original bolts.

Weird how a big yellow klipon bin marked "Gordini Specific Spares" can disappear like that and then suddenly pop out of hiding and place itself in plain view on the garage floor. :alien::alien::alien:

Regards, Frans
 
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