Oil for slugomatic gearboxs

Fair enough, so forget the Club and look at other members with autos.

Each car is going to need about 5 litres as a minimum (ie) two changes minimum each @ around 2.5 litres and by the sounds of it possibly 90% of all Cits supposedly using ATF D2 are running Dexron 3, so at worst you need another 3 owners possibly if necessary only 2.
Perhaps a thread on the cost of rebuilding the ZF autos may stir a little enthusiasm. :evil: :nownow: :cancan: :deal: :deal:


Alan S :cheers:
 
Dave said:
When I put the Transmax M into the 306 a few months ago the oil that came out looked horribly black. I wonder what it used to have in it :blackeye:

Dave
Click to expand...

Exactly my experiance on the XM, I suspected that the previous owner did not change the oil too often- perhaps it was just full of Dex III?

Already have the container of Dex-M waiting, will be interesting to see the colour of the fluid that comes out.

I am feeling pretty lucky here, if I had looked at the wrong web site or listened to the wrong guy in the store I would have filled it with Dex III.....

regards
sean
 
For the record, I asked a question overseas about the fluid they are using in the UK on these boxes and this was a response I got.

Hello Allan s Have been reading your article on auto boxes with great interest having had a BX box or 2 very suddenly die quite comprehensivly. Also an XM with 3 speeds. Funny one that bought by someone that thought that it was a 3 speed box. (no 4th. gear.)
In a way had been told that D3 was OK for the boxes, I cant go into details, names etc. by some one connected with Citroen, I'm still pursewing that one. It does explain a lot as regards why a 70,000 mile box expired.
Click to expand...

again, check the mileage!! :eek: :eek: Around what we've been told is the life expectancy of ZFs out here (ie) 120,000 klms yet others are claiming 200K miles isn't an overly high expectation and there are many that have done that kind of mileage. I'm still waiting to hear what they are using, but I know a lot use the Total stuff they buy direct from dealers or places like GSF.
Speaking of which, suggest this is also checked out.

http://www.elf-sa.com/lubricants_autotrans.htm :D

I'll keep you posted.


Alan S
 
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Dave said:
Hi Guys,

Peter/Alan - Transmax M is what i put in Sarahs 306 a few months back and its auto has been great since, finger crossed.

m.jpg


Dave
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That appears to be fine for a Peugot but what about a Peugeot? :confused:
 
Yeah I made a whole thread about the peugot thing a few months ago when I bought it :tongue:

Dave
 
I visited Paul Skewes Citroen in Newcastle today, where my car had a service at 80000Km. I asked them to pull up the records and tell me what auto fluid they used. Guess what? Castrol Dexron III. I then suggested that it should have had Total ATX, or it's equivalent, Transmax M. Which we agreed to disagree on, whether ATX = III or IID. I left quite disgusted. I think I will follow this up further, with letters to Castrol, cc'd to Skewes. I think if they're wrong, they should be at least partly responsible for an auto exchange, when it happens.
 
Peter,

If you can make the time, just run up every website of any oil company on the internet and the same story is there.
I've found it on Castrol, Shell, Penrite, Mobil and Elf Oils. I haven't bothered with BP which someone reckons tells a different story, but even on the Citroen Tech Info manual it also tells the same story.
What these guys read is a small portion that says "Dexron3 can be used in severe circumstances" but they don't read what the applications are namely heavy equipment. Some say outright that it must NOT be used in passenger vehicle auto transmissions, the exception being certain GM boxes that were made to suit it, whilst others specify the ZF transmission as it being incompatable with.
I think where the problem has arisn, is in that the Oil companies do sound very a bit duplicate in the way the refer to the ATF D11 as being "Superceded" but it seems that the reason for this is that somehow or other GM have some kind of patent rights or name copyright over it and even Castrol refer to it as something like "Castrol to Dexron" fluid and talk about it being used under licence. It is a bit complicared, but my reading is that the term Dexron is a patented thing and when a new number is added, the previous becomes superceded possibly for use in the heavy machinery, it's bloody hard to eaplain. Castrol take 19 pages to do the same and it's still hard to fathom so what hope have I in a paragraph or two?
Worth looking up, printing out and studying, that way it might make soome sense as I'm afraid it seems too many repairers have just gone ahead and used it without realising the consequences.
Glad I own manuals though. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :dance: :dance:

Alan S :cheers:
 
Having been faced with a failed ZF Auto at 125,000klms that had a demonstrated history of fluid changes (3 changes at 40k intervals all using Dexron III fluid) I can only wholeheartedly agree with Alan's argument and I think he has quite compellingly not only explained why this series of Auto's has ilogically earnt the reputation for failure that it has but why this seems to be repeated in Saabs and Audis using the same series of transmissions.

Having owned a Saab (5sp) in a previous life I spoke to my Saab mechanic re the "achilies heel" ZF 4 speed Auto.... "just like that French thing you drive" said Sven....!! and his immediate reply was...

"Let me guess your Auto has failed... what's it done about 120 - 150k's??"

"It's those id!ots that use Dexron III in them... they haven't got a clue that's what does it... I've never had an auto fail on any ZF (Saab) that I've serviced since new in under 250k using DII or Trasmax M since it replaced DII. On all the new stuff I only use Trasmax Z... it's synthetic but has the same properties as DII and will stay clean for 40,000klms so it pays for itself in longer life".... But gees I could have retired if I had a dollar for every failed ZF Auto I've seen or how many cars have been scrapped because of one and all of them had the same thing in common... infrequent fluid changes and Dexron III fluid..."

This from a Saab Specialist with no alegience to French cars or any history on them APART from using the same or similar series of Auto Box.

Quting from the Castrol Specs previously provided....

CASTROL TRANSMAX Z is a full synthetic automatic transmission
fluid with excellent oxidation and friction stability.
CASTROL TRANSMAX Z is a DEXRON® III type automatic
transmission fluid intended to satisfy both DEXRON® III and II
requirements. It is designed and proven to give smooth shift and
long life in passenger car and heavy duty automatic transmissions. It
has been approved by JATCO against NISSAN MATIC D
requirements for service fill.
CASTROL TRANSMAX Z is a product designed for severe duty
applications and long drain service. Field experience in Australia has
already demonstrated outstanding performance in heavy duty
transmissions in buses and coaches particularly those fitted with
internal retarders. It has also reduced transmission fluid
temperatures in severe duty applications, improved shift
performance in transmissions where mineral DEXRON® type fluids
were unsatisfactory. CASTROL TRANSMAX Z has proved very
successful in drag racing applications, both in Jenco Pro-Stock and
Powerglide transmissions.
CASTROL TRANSMAX Z is compatible with conventional mineral oil
based automatic transmission fluids and normal seal materials,
however intermixing will reduce fluid performance. CASTROL
TRANSMAX Z is suitable for most types of automatic transmissions
except where Ford M2C-33 fluids are recommended.
CASTROL TRANSMAX Z is recommended against Ford Mercon®
and Mercon® V specifications.
Refer to Product & Technical Data Sheet B901/92/2 for further
information.

I have been using this in my (rebuilt) ZF Auto since it was swapped changing it every 20,000klms and it comes out clean every time... hesitent to change to Trasmax M at this point but will certainly keep an eye on things...

Well done on a very informative and helpful thread with excellent research.

:cheers:
 
Alan S said:
The Dex3 was apparently originally designed for heavy industrial applications such as coal cutters etc and adapted to automotive use due to its high friction enhancement.
It was Ethylene Glycol based ( I know; I have trouble getting my head around that too) but with a lot of additives mixed with it to make it act as a combined friction enhancer/lubricant whereas the D2 is oil based so there is a really big difference.
Click to expand...
Latest finding...some comfort: Castrol's Dexron III says 'mineral based'.
 
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Clogzz said:
Latest finding...some comfort: Castrol's Dexron III says 'mineral based'.
Click to expand...

Still small cold comfort.

Read performance characteristics; that's where the problems are arising.
I don't have it at the fingertips but it involves temperatures that friction is increased etc and as a result this is where the plates are getting cooked out of them.
Mineral based covers a multitude of things.
LHM, Petrol, Oils, Auto trans fluids, some brake fluids, most degreasers and other by products that are water tolerant. The biggest problem in this instance is the performance characteristics of the friction enhancers and additives and therein lies the story.
I'm no Industrial Chemist and for all I know, Ethylene Glycol itself may even be mineral based.


Alan S
 
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I spoke to Castrol today. Definitely Transmax M for the ZF 4HP20 and Transmax Z for the V6.
 
Where do all these comments and issues leave automatic C3 owners? What automatic oil do we use in our little automatics? :confused: :confused:
 
Why not ring Castrol and find out just to be on the safe side?
It's taken 20 years and a lot of transmissons to become an issue with these only because nobody bothered to ask any questions of the ones who should know, namely the Oil Companies. :nownow:


Alan S :cheers:
 
Hi Alan,

Can we put this as a sticky not just in citroen but in peugeot and technical. I think you have worked out a sticky point for all FWD PSA car owners.

Big Cheers From NZ

Nick
 
briz205 said:
Hi Alan,

Can we put this as a sticky not just in citroen but in peugeot and technical. I think you have worked out a sticky point for all FWD PSA car owners.

Big Cheers From NZ

Nick
Click to expand...


Nick,

Rather than "stick" this in the forums, due to the ever increasing number of stickies, I have linked it to the original post in the "common faults and fixes" forum at the top of Froggy Chat, so it's then preserved for anyone to see.

http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?p=230907#post230907



Alan S :cheers:
 
Just to diverge a bit, but I finally got around to finding the dip stick on the CX C-Matic, and it was low ie not on the stick.
The book says Total Fluid T, which apparently is not available anymore.
Whilst on the phone to a Citroen specialist, I asked what type of oil goes in it, and he said he always uses Dex111.
I went to Autobarn, and went through their books, and Castrol recommend TQF atf for the c-matic, which is not dex 111.

What do other people use?
Thanks
Terry
 
doggiedog said:
Just to diverge a bit, but I finally got around to finding the dip stick on the CX C-Matic, and it was low ie not on the stick.
Click to expand...
Low would indicate that it was below full, but above the low mark on the stick. Not on the stick would indicate it was VERY low. :nownow: :eek:
 
Every C-matic that has had Dex 3 in it has been a dog to change.
I originally spent a long time on the phone to Castrol and Shell a few years back before TQF was acknowledged as being the accepted replacement for FluideT. Shell eventually got back to me with their equivalent, but Dex 3 causes them to be extremely notchy and want to hold on in gear and will eventually wreck the synchros.
I can remember when I was buying my CX a few years back and I had a call from a woman who had one which had been serviced by a supposed specialist and as soon as I heard his name I walked away from the car. Another member of the Cit forum at the time went to take it for a test drive but reckoned it had a strange problem with the transmission. I later found that he was another of the Dex 3 set :crazy: :crazy: Another who had a terminally ill wife who he had to take to Brisbane for regular treatment stopped using his because it used to alsojam unexplainedly in gear and agin it was found that Dex 3 had been used. I even had one guy who was told to use it in his manual transmission in his BX by another one and he too was in all sorts of troubles; kinda makes you wonder how they can justify $70 - $110 an hour for you to pay for their "expertise" doesn't it. :confused: :clown: :clown:


Alan S :cheers:
 
Alan S said:
Every C-matic that has had Dex 3 in it has been a dog to change.
I originally spent a long time on the phone to Castrol and Shell a few years back before TQF was acknowledged as being the accepted replacement for FluideT. Shell eventually got back to me with their equivalent, but Dex 3 causes them to be extremely notchy and want to hold on in gear and will eventually wreck the synchros.
I can remember when I was buying my CX a few years back and I had a call from a woman who had one which had been serviced by a supposed specialist and as soon as I heard his name I walked away from the car. Another member of the Cit forum at the time went to take it for a test drive but reckoned it had a strange problem with the transmission. I later found that he was another of the Dex 3 set :crazy: :crazy: Another who had a terminally ill wife who he had to take to Brisbane for regular treatment stopped using his because it used to alsojam unexplainedly in gear and agin it was found that Dex 3 had been used. I even had one guy who was told to use it in his manual transmission in his BX by another one and he too was in all sorts of troubles; kinda makes you wonder how they can justify $70 - $110 an hour for you to pay for their "expertise" doesn't it. :confused: :clown: :clown:


Alan S :cheers:
Click to expand...

Exactly,
I did buy the TQF, but havent put it in yet, will do tomorrow. Actually thinking out loud, I probably should change it, I bought 2 L, but another 1 L will probably do.
Thanks for the help.
Terry (nearly on the road!!!) :cancan:
 
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