Oil for slugomatic gearboxs

doggiedog said:
If you look at BPs site and look for Xantia lubricants, they specify Dextron111,
but if you go to Mobils site they specify their ATF220, which is Dextron11D,
which rings a bell, cos older Fords used a different ATF, from memory.
Although if the Xantia is a V6, it states it is filled for life, and to use manufactures part number Part No. PR 9736.22.

http://www.mobil.com/Australia-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_ATF_220.asp
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Which is all very interesting, because mobil ATF220 is one of the specified fluids for ZF bus transmissions- and was listed by the Regie as an alternative to the old renaultmatic versions 1 and 2. It is a low friction modifier oil.
The comment about a glycol base has me even more concerned- glycol is very good at dissolving certain types of friction plate.
I guess this means I'm up s***t creek with the 405.

Farmerdave
 
I remembered I had a 1L bottle of Castrol atf out in the shed today, that I'd bought for the Patrol power steering. It's called (and I'll quote from the bottle):


"TRANSMAX M (formerly Castrol TQ Dexron D22798) is a mineral based ATF suitable for most transmissions, except where Ford M2C-33 fuild or other specialist fluids are recommended."

and it goes on,

"Formulated to the superseded Dexron II specification."

"Suitable for a wide range of European automatic transmissions, e.g. Merc.............and Peugeot."

Surely that has to be the stuff!!!
 
Hi Guys,

Peter/Alan - Transmax M is what i put in Sarahs 306 a few months back and its auto has been great since, finger crossed.

m.jpg


Dave
 
sdabel said:
This is the stuff I have being putting into the XM........
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So we are using the right stuff?

Dave
 
sdabel said:
This is the stuff I have being putting into the XM........
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To my reading of things, this is possibly the stuff they should all have been using. It sounds of equal specs to the stuff I was sold for this BX I serviced.
Re: ZF Boxes.

Have asked questions overseas about the life expectancy and according to many over there they consider them almost bomb proof so can't follow the reputation they have out here. Here is one response I had
That being said, 150, 000 miles is not excessive for an autobox.
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Yet out here we look at 200K klms as being a maximum possible, so you have to ask why the difference as their boxes would get worked more in their climate and traffic than ours I would imagine. I know of one guy in France who had over 400K klms on his still going strong. Keeps coming back to outside influences and the main suspect this fettish for Dexron3 we have.
ZF have a good reputation in manuals also. My son is involved in building a Super Sports based on a LeMans Porsche with a guy with serious wealth and serious toys and he tells me they have a ZF tranmission on the way out from Europe now which is worth many thousands of $$s.
To my knowledge, this car is being built up on the specs as per the Porsche factory cars, so if they use them for that, and PSA used them for several models for a lot of years, it beggers belief that they are an achilles heal in a BX, XM or Xantia.

Alan S
 
PeterT said:
I'm still confused and I understand the difference between the Ford C4 and the GM applications. I'm going to ask Continental Cars what they use.
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Asked them and they use Dexron III. Just changed the XM oil and put in the Transmax M. I would be happy to put in either. For all those cheapskate AussieFroggers the Transmax M is 5 bucks cheaper. :D
 
Sorry to tell you, but the Castrol write up basically backs up what has been said; that Dex3 is not the correct fluid.
Unfortunately, the info I originally posted was from the Official Citroen Tech Training manual which as Castrol say towards the end effectively over rides anything they have quoted.
It seems that the idea of using Dex3 has been promoted by some service people and I would be interested in getting an official ruling from ATECO or better still Citroen as to whether this has been a thing that has evolved through "pub talk" or if it came as official service advice. It seems the Sydney guys (one in particular) has a habit of doing the Dex3 trick and it also appears that he also seems to also have a high incidence of auto box failures; coincidence?
It seems strange that the Citroen advice is against it, as is advice from most of the oil companies but Castrol & BP whilst not saying outright that it's OK, seem to indicate that it is. Incidentally, I understand both are owned by the same company these days, so that could explain the similarity.
The saving grace may be that the 20K changes may have kept your box alive by keeping the fluid free of contaminents. If I showed you the stuff out of the car I did, you'd have a fit, particularly as it was supposedly renewed only about 30K klms ago.

Alan S
 
Taking it a bit further, I had a look at the Penrite site after failing to get the Shell site which also shows Dex11 and Dex111 in two seperate catagories to download the specs sheet.

Here is Penrites specs on the Dex11:

http://www.penrite.com.au/pispdf/ATFDX2.pdf

Described as "Automatic transmission fluid meeting the obsolete DEXRON-11D specification."

In it they say under sub of 'Application' ........."Cars of European Origin in particular still require this fluid, such as Alfa, BMW, Citroen,M.Benz, Peugeot and Porsche as well as some Japanese manufacturers such as Suzuki and Toyota."

The Dex111 shows totally different specs:

http://www.penrite.com.au/pispdf/ATFDX3.pdf

It claims it as "Advanced technology" (up to 160,000 klms) and made from 'latest additive technology and advanced hydrocracked base oils.'

An interesting sideline to this is that it constantly makes reference to it being a specialised fluid for Holden and Lexcen auto transmissions and it speaks of its longer life. If this is so harmless and compatable with Cit transmissions, then why is it that the oil removed from these ZF boxes is as black as tar even after a short mileage?
Dogboys at around 110K klms, the car I serviced at 128,000 but about 30K klms since it had the stuff put in it?
It almost has to be either things wearing internally due to wrong lubrication or a reaction to materials inside there as suggested by farmerdave. I couldn't imagine the fluid from a Commodore loking like that after 160K klms let alone 30K.
Still stick by my belief it's causing major problems all evidence points to it.


Alan S
 
Alan S said:
Taking it a bit further, I had a look at the Penrite site after failing to get the Shell site which also shows Dex11 and Dex111 in two seperate catagories to download the specs sheet.

Here is Penrites specs on the Dex11:

http://www.penrite.com.au/pispdf/ATFDX2.pdf

Described as "Automatic transmission fluid meeting the obsolete DEXRON-11D specification."

In it they say under sub of 'Application' ........."Cars of European Origin in particular still require this fluid, such as Alfa, BMW, Citroen,M.Benz, Peugeot and Porsche as well as some Japanese manufacturers such as Suzuki and Toyota."

The Dex111 shows totally different specs:

http://www.penrite.com.au/pispdf/ATFDX3.pdf

It claims it as "Advanced technology" (up to 160,000 klms) and made from 'latest additive technology and advanced hydrocracked base oils.'

An interesting sideline to this is that it constantly makes reference to it being a specialised fluid for Holden and Lexcen auto transmissions and it speaks of its longer life. If this is so harmless and compatable with Cit transmissions, then why is it that the oil removed from these ZF boxes is as black as tar even after a short mileage?
Dogboys at around 110K klms, the car I serviced at 128,000 but about 30K klms since it had the stuff put in it?
It almost has to be either things wearing internally due to wrong lubrication or a reaction to materials inside there as suggested by farmerdave. I couldn't imagine the fluid from a Commodore loking like that after 160K klms let alone 30K.
Still stick by my belief it's causing major problems all evidence points to it.


Alan S
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Maybe it's the earlier gearboxs that give the most problems. My Xantia slugomatic has had it's all changed with every engine oil change since I got it .... Using Dexron III. It's gearbox works perfectly. This certainly doesn't mean I'm not getting rid of the Dexron III and putting Dexron II back into the gearbox ASAP.

seeya,
Shane L.
 
When I put the Transmax M into the 306 a few months ago the oil that came out looked horribly black. I wonder what it used to have in it :blackeye:

Dave
 
I think it may even run a bit deeper than that Shane; if you look at the Dex3 spec sheet it says it it is "approved against the requirements of DEXRON111H (released June 2003) " so obviously, this Dex3 is still evolving possibly with further additives to cope with the demands of the modern (in particular GM) boxes.
The black sediment that appears in these ZF boxes to me is comparable to what happens if you boil rhubarb in an aluminium saucepan. It looks like the black aluminium/rhubarb mix and also to me seems a bit watery by comparison to the Dex2 and as I said to someone earlier, I would say the constant changing is the saving grace by tipping the stuff out, but look again at the manufacturers specs; 160K klms expectancy, so if you need to change it at 20K klms intervals, that has to tell you something's just not right.


Alan S
 
Alan S said:
I think it may even run a bit deeper than that Shane; if you look at the Dex3 spec sheet it says it it is "approved against the requirements of DEXRON111H (released June 2003) " so obviously, this Dex3 is still evolving possibly with further additives to cope with the demands of the modern (in particular GM) boxes.
The black sediment that appears in these ZF boxes to me is comparable to what happens if you boil rhubarb in an aluminium saucepan. It looks like the black aluminium/rhubarb mix and also to me seems a bit watery by comparison to the Dex2 and as I said to someone earlier, I would say the constant changing is the saving grace by tipping the stuff out, but look again at the manufacturers specs; 160K klms expectancy, so if you need to change it at 20K klms intervals, that has to tell you something's just not right.


Alan S
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I just change it every 10,000kms for peice of mind. $10bux for a bit of oil, and another 3minutes effort at each oil change time is worth it IMO. You do only get about 2litres out at each change .........

I'm sure it could go for 160,000kms in some gearboxs .... But why the bloody hell would you want to leave it in there for that long. Oil isn't THAT expensive :eek: :eek: I wonder if any gearbox would last the 160,000kms ... Or is it a case of "the oil will last to 160,000kms at which time we recommend you replace the gearbox AND oil :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: .

seeya,
Shane L.
 
WE see a variety of cars and boxes here due to the adventures and efforts of the "Petrolhead set" as you well know and in the boxes it is recommended for, yes it is quite possible to get that kind of mileage and even after 100K klms of hard driving, I've seen it come out red, but I've never heard of anyone getting the stuff out any other colour than black out of these ZF boxes which says something's not right. I would be interestred to see one with big klms still on the original as a comparison as it seems everyone I talk to has blythely put Dex3 in without first checking its compatability. Look at most of the responses above as an example and some still ready to keep doing it regardless of the evidence from Citroen Tech manuals, Oil company specs and handbooks from the cars when new.
To me it's on par to having accidentally put water in the tank, discovered what you've done, drain the tank and after refilling, puting more water in so it didn't need as much petrol to refill it based on advice you were given by a servo attendant; there's about as much logic to it.



Alan S
 
Clogzz said:
Always used Dexron III in my Xantia 95...as recommended by my Citroën mechanic.
He did say to change it every 20 000 Km.
152 000 Km so far...all well.

Thanks, the Castrol article is very interesting and confirms what i've heard from Fuch's technical department.
Still there is a difference between brands with the same Dexron specs. in the friction modifiers.
As they say it shows in the way gears (clutches) engage and the amount of slippage bearing in mind that slippage is 50% of heat generated. Heat, in the main, cooks the oil and turns it black.
I've usesd Castrol Transmax Z and Dexron III and the difference in changes is quite noticable even though both are Dexron type fluids (in a VW transmission)
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I spoke to a Total rep. today.

Total ATX = Transmax M = IID

So use III at your own risk

As ATX is only available in 20L drums he suggested Transmax.


(I think I should start looking for a manual pedal box)
 
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PeterT said:
I spoke to a Total rep. today.

Total ATX = Transmax M = IID

So use III at your own risk

As ATX is only available in 20L drums he suggested Transmax.


(I think I should start looking for a manual pedal box)
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Wouldn't there be enough autos needing this down there to justify a group buy?
If you're in the NSW CCC have they got the right stuff or are they due for another order from Onshore?
We should have Onshore at UQ on Sunday, do you want me to quiz them for you re; price and availability?


Alan S
 
Alan S said:
Wouldn't there be enough autos needing this down there to justify a group buy?
If you're in the NSW CCC have they got the right stuff or are they due for another order from Onshore?
We should have Onshore at UQ on Sunday, do you want me to quiz them for you re; price and availability?


Alan S
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CCC of NSW committee have previously discussed purchasing and supplying oils other than LHM and have decided against it for various reasons. To summarise:

1. The intent of the club sourcing and supplying LHM is really only meant to be for "emergency" purchases
2. Distribution and storage of the volumes of LHM is already difficult without adding more stock to the matter
3. LHM is LHM - it can't be anything else. To bring other fluids into it could be interesting and fraught with danger - as can be demostrated above.

If members require oils and other fluids for their cars other than LHM, they should source and arrange its installation as necessary.
 
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