Oil for slugomatic gearboxs

How does 'protecting your dealers from litigation on obsolete gearboxes' sound for an explanation?
As someone pointed out in another thread here a while back, LHM which is mineral based, hence the name, has been found to seperate when mixed with Dex3 when used as a get home measure in Citroen hydraulics just as oil seperates in water, this being the case, then I can see no reason why Dex2 (oil based) would not do the same in Dex3 and as we all know, a car with a blown headgasket will allow water to contaminate the sump oil yet it will run for a fair period before destroying the engine.
They have a pecuniary interest to protect, I haven't; I don't drive an auto nor do I have any ambitions to own one and I don't have a business that can benefit from it, all I know is that those who have followed what they originally had on there have had outstanding results and if they have seen fit to change that info, then they and only they would really know why.
Trying to get the head around corporate strategies when things like this happen is a mystery in this day and age with all the spin that gets plastered around telling people what they want to hear rather than the facts. One needs to go no further than the Queensland Health system in the area where I live where an Inquiry has just found a doctor who has been directly linked to 85 deaths and is to be charged with manslaughter was offered a reference that stated he was an "excellent" surgeon after the deaths of 85 patients to see how much credence that can be put on corporate manouvering to suit the occasion.
As I say, I'm at a loss to explain it, but it seems after all these years and myriads of failures and complaints of rough operation that they would suddenly endorse the obvious cause.:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:


Alan S:2cents:
 
danielsydney said:
Id like to know too actually as thats what I was told by 1 guy but then another guy told me that was rubbish. :confused: :confused:
Click to expand...

No oil can last forever obviously.... I think it's best to demand the oil be changed... or is the AL4 sealed? For example, the autobox in my S-Type is sealed, there is no way to change the oil, unless they unseal it (according to the dealer).

But i doubt thats the case with the AL4, i've read several articles on the net, which recommend changing the oil!
 
3HP22 meant to be a DexII box

Hi Alan,

I must admit I am still not completely sure about the DexII/III decision. :confused: I have just put a new 3HP22 into my Peugeot 505 wagon and filled it with DexIII, seemingly as recommended by ZF. This box is specified to use DexII. The last thing I want to do is stuff it up!

I made the decision to use DexIII based on the lubrication list from the ZF web site. I thought that was the most objective advice I could find - I hope I interpreted it right.

On the other hand, the Castrol website does not recommend the use of Castrol TQ III in ZF transmissions. They recommend Castrol Transmax M which, as confirmed by the Castrol technical help line, is a DexII ATF.

FWIW, I spoke to a prominent and respected transmission place in Adelaide today (well familiar with ZF boxes) and they said that DexIII would be fine in my 3HP22. However, they thought it would be an issue if I had a 4 or 5 speed ZF transmission.

I have sent an email to the ZF person listed near the PDF link on the ZF website to ask them about the use of DexIII fluids in DexII boxes. Be interesting to see what they say. I should have an answer after Dec 5.
 
Alan S said:
How does 'protecting your dealers from litigation on obsolete gearboxes' sound for an explanation?
As someone pointed out in another thread here a while back, LHM which is mineral based, hence the name, has been found to seperate when mixed with Dex3 when used as a get home measure in Citroen hydraulics just as oil seperates in water, this being the case, then I can see no reason why Dex2 (oil based) would not do the same in Dex3 and as we all know, a car with a blown headgasket will allow water to contaminate the sump oil yet it will run for a fair period before destroying the engine.
They have a pecuniary interest to protect, I haven't; I don't drive an auto nor do I have any ambitions to own one and I don't have a business that can benefit from it, all I know is that those who have followed what they originally had on there have had outstanding results and if they have seen fit to change that info, then they and only they would really know why.
Trying to get the head around corporate strategies when things like this happen is a mystery in this day and age with all the spin that gets plastered around telling people what they want to hear rather than the facts. One needs to go no further than the Queensland Health system in the area where I live where an Inquiry has just found a doctor who has been directly linked to 85 deaths and is to be charged with manslaughter was offered a reference that stated he was an "excellent" surgeon after the deaths of 85 patients to see how much credence that can be put on corporate manouvering to suit the occasion.
As I say, I'm at a loss to explain it, but it seems after all these years and myriads of failures and complaints of rough operation that they would suddenly endorse the obvious cause.:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:


Alan S:2cents:
Click to expand...

I think you're right Alan.

I accept your point about unfathomable corporate logic (hey, I work for a government department, I reckon I know a bit about that!).

I am not sure what you are saying about Dexron II and Dexron III not mixing. My understanding is that they are both mineral based so surely they would mix.

I am delighted for you that you don't have a car with an auto box. Sometimes I wish I didn't either! But I have, and my interest lies in knowing the best transmission fluid for it. Ideally I would like to see some controlled tests of these boxes and fluids. Say 10 identical cars. Put Dexron II in 5 of them and Dexron III in the other 5. Then drive them to death (the boxes that is). The drivers would not know which fluid their car had. Then pull apart and measure everything. Hey, I'm a scientist! But we don't have that luxury. All we have is the assertions of the various companies on one side and the assertions of the cars' owners on the other.

If my car had Dexron III in it I would have swapped it for Dexron II by now. But it has Castrol Transmax Z, which is a synthetic "equivalent" of Dexron III (but not actually Dexron III because it is not mineral based), and is probably the most expensive auto transmission fluid around. The Sydney Citroen specialist who rebuilt the box a few months ago said it was the only fluid that could handle the heat in the box. The transmission shifts reasonably smoothly but not completely so, and I don't know whether that is because of the fluid or the box. I suppose at some stage soon I will drain a bit out and see what it looks like.

After hearing all the horror stories about XM auto boxes I deliberately bought one with a newly rebuilt transmission and a few other things wrong with it, rather that one where everything else was spto on but the box was suspect. I just hope I did the right thing.

Roger
 
I'm fascinated with the replies.
Renault specifies ELF Renaultmatic D2 or Mobile ATF 220 for the R19.
I've uses Castrol Transmax X - works OK, shifts are a bit harsher. I'v usesed texrom III as recommended. Works OK but i'll change to the recommended one now that i know. Well, i've known for some time that the smooth function depends on the match of additives to the friction plates amongst other parameters.
Our 19s trans. has s**t itself. Almost no drive in 1st (like a badly slipping clutch) My info from the tech notes on the 01M (VW as is the Renault but called AD4, at least the look the same to me) Check for faulty 1st - 3rd apply clutch or reverse brake.
 
Roger FWIW I run Transmax Z in all our autos and have only changed to Transmax M in the BX because of this thread.

I do not think there is an issue about Z or M excpet cost, the issue is DIII and DII (Transmax M)

I see Z as the equivalent of Premium Fully Synthetic Engine Oil ...if you can afford it use it... and run it for longer than a lesser product but as for how it performed in my ZF4 (BX) I can honestly say it was measurably better than the DIII it was filled with after the rebuild, came out spotless and seemed fine over 10,000klms. The M seems to be a little smoother but this may be subjective....

We had a Volvo 850 wagon that had done 285ks when sold and the box had never been touched and it ran Z all it's life.

My father has an ED Fairmont with close to 300k's and it's still on the original Auto running TransmaxZ

In an earlier post I mentioned that a very reputable SAAB specialist in Sydney (the 900's and 9000's use the same / similar auto as Pug / Cit and have a similar "reputation" in Aus) verified Al's point almost immediately. Over 20 years he has seen ZF4HP boxes run for hundreds of thousands of klms on DII and the same box fail in under 100000klms running DIII.... pretty compelling support of this theory I'd suggest....

:cheers:
 
Thanks Jack.

You seem to be saying that Transmax Z is good stuff so leave it in there. Which is just as well, because I don't think I could change it to Transmax M even if I wanted to. When you drain those boxes you only get a fraction of the fluid out, don't you, so I wouldn't want to be mixing the synthetic Transmax Z with the mineral Transmax M anyway.

Roger
 
JoBo said:
I'm fascinated with the replies.
Renault specifies ELF Renaultmatic D2 or Mobile ATF 220 for the R19.
I've uses Castrol Transmax X - works OK, shifts are a bit harsher. I'v usesed texrom III as recommended. Works OK but i'll change to the recommended one now that i know. Well, i've known for some time that the smooth function depends on the match of additives to the friction plates amongst other parameters.
Our 19s trans. has s**t itself. Almost no drive in 1st (like a badly slipping clutch) My info from the tech notes on the 01M (VW as is the Renault but called AD4, at least the look the same to me) Check for faulty 1st - 3rd apply clutch or reverse brake.
Click to expand...

Jo,
The ATF220 is supposed to be a D2 type fluid and seems to be readily available over here. I went for the Renaultmatic in the R25, well worthwhile in my opinion compared to the D3- smoother shifts and cooler running.

Blizzardboy, you are in a good situation here to find out- run the car for say 1000km with the D3, and refill with Transmax M. Note the colour change after the same interval, it may suprise you.

Farmerdave
 
farmerdave said:
Jo,
The ATF220 is supposed to be a D2 type fluid and seems to be readily available over here. I went for the Renaultmatic in the R25, well worthwhile in my opinion compared to the D3- smoother shifts and cooler running.

Blizzardboy, you are in a good situation here to find out- run the car for say 1000km with the D3, and refill with Transmax M. Note the colour change after the same interval, it may suprise you.

Farmerdave
Click to expand...
Like your contributions Farmerdave. Just confirmes horses for courses AtF oils/fluids. What do you think about transmax X?
Curious, because after fixing the AD4 (again) i have to decide which oil to use.
Cheers
 
Roger Wilkinson said:
I am not sure what you are saying about Dexron II and Dexron III not mixing. My understanding is that they are both mineral based so surely they would mix.
Click to expand...
Just because they might both be mineral based doesn't necessarily mean they will mix to form a homogenous liquid. Especially if the viscosity is different.

When I got my Xantia the hydraulic oil was 95% some kind of ATF (not sure what kind, probably either dexron II or III) and 5% LHM, and despite both being mineral based, the LHM would NOT mix with it, and simply floated on top in the resoviour.

This made it very misleading trying to figure out what kind of oil was in there - looking into the tank with the cap off showed oil that was green, dipping a finger in the oil resulted in a yellow colour (the red and green mixing) and taking a sample and looking at it in a jar proved that it was mostly red with a small layer of green floating on the top :mad:

Needless to say I flushed the system and replaced it with LHM :)

Regards,
Simon
 
Mandrake said:
Just because they might both be mineral based doesn't necessarily mean they will mix to form a homogenous liquid. Especially if the viscosity is different.

When I got my Xantia the hydraulic oil was 95% some kind of ATF (not sure what kind, probably either dexron II or III) and 5% LHM, and despite both being mineral based, the LHM would NOT mix with it, and simply floated on top in the resoviour.

This made it very misleading trying to figure out what kind of oil was in there - looking into the tank with the cap off showed oil that was green, dipping a finger in the oil resulted in a yellow colour (the red and green mixing) and taking a sample and looking at it in a jar proved that it was mostly red with a small layer of green floating on the top :mad:

Needless to say I flushed the system and replaced it with LHM :)

Regards,
Simon
Click to expand...

That's true. But I would expect Dexron II and Dexron III to be a lot less different from each other than Dexron of any persuasion and LHM. The two Dexrons are designed to do pretty much the same thing, but Dexron and LHM are designed for completely different purposes. I would expect Dexron II and III to have much the same viscosity and base, but differ slightly in the extra stuff they add. I would not expect them to be so different that they would not mix.

Roger
 
Hi Roger,

IMO ATF/Transmax M is *really* cheap ... You only change about 2 of the 6litres with an ATF change... So whenever I change the engine oil on the Xantia slugomatic, I change 2 of it's 6litres of ATF too.... For the $10bux of ATF and extra 3minutes of work while I'm under there it just seems like a smart thing to do :) Certainly it give peace of mind if nothing else. So she gets a fluid change every 10,000kms.

As your using the synthetic fluid, I'd be less keen to do this due to the cost factor of the more expensive fluid.

seeya,
Shane L.
 
Jo,
I've not used Transmax Z, so I can't comment on how suitable it would be. For the money you could use the Renaultmatic -which is also synthetic or regular changes of Transmax M/ ATF220 as described by Double Chevron. Conservative option but swapping synthetic oils gets a bit expensive.

Farmerdave
 
farmerdave said:
Jo,
I've not used Transmax Z, so I can't comment on how suitable it would be. For the money you could use the Renaultmatic -which is also synthetic or regular changes of Transmax M/ ATF220 as described by Double Chevron. Conservative option but swapping synthetic oils gets a bit expensive.

Farmerdave
Click to expand...
Yea, thanks Dave. I've used Transmax Z in the 19 once after a rebuild. The gearchanges were a bit notchy or somwhat harsher than with DIII. I've changed back to DIII for reasons of cost as well as harshness. Next will be Renaultmatic if i can find it.
Listened to a technician from Fuchs oils and a mate who workes in a garage and the bottom line seems to be the additives/modifiers related to the combatibility fith the friction surfaces.
JoBo
 
Dexron III vs Dexron II

I have a 1981 Mercedes 300D with a 4 speed automatic. I think it's a ZF. The manual won't tell me, but a bit of searching on the internet came up with that answer. I bought the car 15,000kms (1.5 years) ago. Gradually the gear changing has regressed. It would stick in second and then change to 3rd and 4th really quickly. I was passing a Repco shop and they couldn't find the recommended fluid for my car (I had forgotten to check the manual first), so they sold me Dexron III. I changed the fluid and filter. Fortunately in a Merc you can drain the torque converter. The drained fluid was black and furthermore the problem didn't go away.

Then a good friend of mine (Peter) allerted me to this forum.

I finally checked to see what the Haynes manual recommended and it said Dexron II, so I went back to Repco and they gladly swapped the old fluid (whatever that was) for a new 4 litre bottle of Dexron II. I cleaned the filter with petrol and dried it in the oven, put the Dexron II fluid in and BINGO. The transmission works properly now - in fact better than when I bought it.

Thank you everyone for your advice.
 
ZF comments

I received this reply from ZF technical support in Germany:

"the fluids we have listed in our ZF list of lubricants TE-ML11 lubricant
class 11A und 11B are run through our approval test program for ZF automatic
transmissions. In these approval tests we have not seen critical differences
concerning wear or shift clutch performance between these fluids. But we
know that other ATFs using other base oil / additive package / viscosity
index improver additive combinations can cause problems in the transmission.
Therefor it is important that only the listed ATFs were used in these ZF
automatic transmissions."

My query was in regards the use of Castrol TQ Dexron III in a ZF 3HP22.

Cheers,

Todd
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top