C5 V6, Bad oil leak around timing cover area, Seeking Advice

[Kaza1]

Captain slow, isn't your problem that the car is stalling or missing AFTER it warms up which would be a different scenario to a tyre induced limp mode (ie check engine light, reduce power at all times, ABS or ESP warning coming on, problem with engine hot and cold?).

But then again, nothing suprises me anymore with these cars.

 

[Captain Slow]

No my problem is all the time, right from cold start up. And it's not really missing, it just cuts all power and you coast along until you let go of the accelerator for a second or two then you can feed the power back on. But only very gently, if you try to give it anymore than about 5 or 10% it just cuts out again.

You can nail it from a standstill and it will take off normally up to about 30 kph before it cuts out so this lends weight to the theory of tyres with a different rolling diameter causing problems as the speed increases.

Ben

Captain slow, isn't your problem that the car is stalling or missing AFTER it warms up which would be a different scenario to a tyre induced limp mode (ie check engine light, reduce power at all times, ABS or ESP warning coming on, problem with engine hot and cold?).

But then again, nothing suprises me anymore with these cars.

 

[Captain Slow]

I also went to look at the spare yesterday to see what tyre it had on and change it over to see if it made any difference.

Well the tyre was the right size but has a nail in it and was flat.

Another heart felt THANK YOU (not) to the previous owner.

Ben

 

[Captain Slow]

Hello again,

Well I was looking into tyres when I can across a local chap selling a set of 17 inch alloys with near new tyres so I bought them and fitted them up.

Unfortunately it did not fix the problem. For a brief moment I thought it was fixed but that was short lived.

I'm not sure where to go with it now. All I can come up with it to maybe let the dealer have another crack at being wrong.

On the flip side, the car looks much better now!

 

[Captain Slow]

For anyone that is still following, this ordeal may be close to the end.

I had the car booked back in at the Citroen dealer, but a friends mechanic recommended another mechanic that specializes in Renault Citroen Peugeot etc etc. He is reasonably local to me (only a few klms from the Citroen dealer) but I had never heard of him.

So I cancelled the Citroen booking and booked it in with the new place which is Paul Andrews Auto Repairs at North Wollongong.

After 2 days I got a call saying he is sure he found the problem and it's ...... DRUM ROLL........ the fuel pump.
I got a quote for $740 for a new genuine one fitted.

I've found a new allegedly genuine one on ebay from a place in Melbourne for less than $400 delivered.
So my question is how easy are they to fit? ie is it worth saving a few hundred and do it myself.

I've done several different vehicle ones in the past, but the mechanic told me there was special tools required to do the C5 one.
I'm sure technically he may be right, but is there an alternate method? (probably involving a hammer of some sort lol)

I did do some searching first but didn't come up with much at all.

Thanks
Ben

PS,
Another thing this Paul chap mentioned was he was very wary of my new Delphi coils, saying they were too cheap and probably chinese knockoffs. Also stating they lacked some special resistor that the genuine ones have and they would fry my ECU.

My new coils are branded Delphi, came in Delphi boxes, with Delphi shiny security stickers on the box lid.
Are the Chinese companies going to this much trouble to counterfeit products these days?

 

[David S]

It's submerged inside the tank unit and that's not hard to get out if you have a tool to turn the locking ring. The factory tool is a socket of sorts with three prongs set at the correct diameter, but there's probably a generic one that can be used. You just have to make sure you get the seal and ring back on without cross-threading it and damaging something. It can be a bit of a fiddle. It's not unknown for the tank vent to block though, so be sure that's not making the pump appear suspect. I know changing the pump on one 24 Valve XM resolved a lot of starting and running problems. I think that may even have been just a Wabro pump from Repco. Another option is to try a dealer with a similar car as a parts substitution donor. There was one out the back on blocks at Punchbowl a few weeks ago, so they could be worth a try if the pump doesn't turn out to be the fix.

 

[Armidillo]

Hi Ben

So sorry to read of your ordeal (not mention the expense!) - hope the diagnosis is right this time. The business with the little cats (kittens) must have been especially galling!

Actually, now that you've mentioned fuel pump, your symptoms are not that different to a problem I had with my Xantia (predecessor to the C5). It has a 4 cylinder turbo engine, so must require a fairly high fuel flow when I plant the foot.

At first engine would occasionally stop, and only after it had been running for more than an hour, but it gradually got worse. There was also a significant loss of power even when it wasn't cutting out. Of course you haven't had the car for long enough to know what is "normal", but having had my car several years I knew it wasn't right, and suspected fuel starvation. Changing filter didn't work. I checked the tops of the fuel injectors (had one blocked by crud on a previous occasion), but they were pretty clean. On learning that the in-tank fuel pump had a strainer I decided that might be the problem, but at the time the problem wasn't too bad & I didn't want to cause any new problems so I left it...

Anyway, finally had a shocker of a trip home from Coffs Harbour to Armidale, after picking up my sister and nephew at Coffs airport. We got up the mountain to Dorrigo all right, but from then on the engine would cut out on the slightest incline unless I feathered the throttle. At trimes it was probably happening several times per kilometer! I always had to turn the key off before it would start again, so it was a pain!

So after that trip, with nothing to lose I consulted Haynes, depressurised the fuel system, lifted up the back seat, removed the large dust cover, unscrewed the locking ring (just using a big screwdriver placed against each lug in turn and whacking it), pulled out the pump and cleaned a thick layer of black(?) sludge off the strainer. Put it back together (carefully, fuel gauge sender seems rather delicate) and voila! no further problems.

So it seems that the computer senses an excessively lean mixture, or low fuel pressure, and stops the motor. However it doesn't stop you from starting it again (& again & again...). At least until it got really bad, letting it cool down for an extended period seemed to help, but perhaps some of the crud floated away again while the car rested?

Postscript: I tried to do the same thing on a Xantia wagon I bought last year (preventative maintenance really), but couldn't undo the locking ring. The technique that worked on the Series I car just broke lugs off on the Series II.

I actually only read this thread for the first time tonight, but I'm not sure that I would have twigged to the similarities much earlier. In your case (assuming it is a problem with in-tank pump/strainer), the weird array of error codes sems to have hindered, rather than helped, with the diagnosis!

On the issue of counterfeited products, my (definitely cloned) Actia diagnostic tool has beautiful stickers, and looks totally genuine...

Cheers

Alec

 

[Captain Slow]

Hello Alec,

Where were you 4 months ago?! lol

Thanks for your insight. It's nice to know that hopefully I'm on the right path. After so much misdirection it's almost impossible to believe it would ever be fixed.
The mechanic also stated that if he doesn't fix a car then he doesn't charge so thats reassuring too.

I should be picking it up tomorrow after forking out another $740 so hopefully I can put this thread to bed.

I'll keep you all posted

Ben

Hi Ben

So sorry to read of your ordeal (not mention the expense!) - hope the diagnosis is right this time. The business with the little cats (kittens) must have been especially galling!

Actually, now that you've mentioned fuel pump, your symptoms are not that different to a problem I had with my Xantia (predecessor to the C5). It has a 4 cylinder turbo engine, so must require a fairly high fuel flow when I plant the foot.

At first engine would occasionally stop, and only after it had been running for more than an hour, but it gradually got worse. There was also a significant loss of power even when it wasn't cutting out. Of course you haven't had the car for long enough to know what is "normal", but having had my car several years I knew it wasn't right, and suspected fuel starvation. Changing filter didn't work. I checked the tops of the fuel injectors (had one blocked by crud on a previous occasion), but they were pretty clean. On learning that the in-tank fuel pump had a strainer I decided that might be the problem, but at the time the problem wasn't too bad & I didn't want to cause any new problems so I left it...

Anyway, finally had a shocker of a trip home from Coffs Harbour to Armidale, after picking up my sister and nephew at Coffs airport. We got up the mountain to Dorrigo all right, but from then on the engine would cut out on the slightest incline unless I feathered the throttle. At trimes it was probably happening several times per kilometer! I always had to turn the key off before it would start again, so it was a pain!

So after that trip, with nothing to lose I consulted Haynes, depressurised the fuel system, lifted up the back seat, removed the large dust cover, unscrewed the locking ring (just using a big screwdriver placed against each lug in turn and whacking it), pulled out the pump and cleaned a thick layer of black(?) sludge off the strainer. Put it back together (carefully, fuel gauge sender seems rather delicate) and voila! no further problems.

So it seems that the computer senses an excessively lean mixture, or low fuel pressure, and stops the motor. However it doesn't stop you from starting it again (& again & again...). At least until it got really bad, letting it cool down for an extended period seemed to help, but perhaps some of the crud floated away again while the car rested?

Postscript: I tried to do the same thing on a Xantia wagon I bought last year (preventative maintenance really), but couldn't undo the locking ring. The technique that worked on the Series I car just broke lugs off on the Series II.

I actually only read this thread for the first time tonight, but I'm not sure that I would have twigged to the similarities much earlier. In your case (assuming it is a problem with in-tank pump/strainer), the weird array of error codes sems to have hindered, rather than helped, with the diagnosis!

On the issue of counterfeited products, my (definitely cloned) Actia diagnostic tool has beautiful stickers, and looks totally genuine...

Cheers

Alec

 

[Armidillo]

...

The mechanic also stated that if he doesn't fix a car then he doesn't charge so thats reassuring too.

...

I'll keep you all posted


Ben

Wow! It's a wonder he had time to look at your car - with a policy like that, I'd have thought there'd be a queue out the door, and a very long waiting list!!

On the subject of my strainer blockage, it almost certainly would have been caused by using ethanol fuel. I use it most of the time in the Xantia without any other side effects.

Cheers and best of luck this time

Alec

PS What are you going to do about your coils? Presumably safest thing is to refit the ones you took out (after checking for the special resistor) and put the new ones back on eBay?

 

[Captain Slow]

This chaps rate is quite high (in my experience anyway) at $114 p/h, although he did say that if a jobs hours are starting to add up he never charges the full rate. That along with the "it's fixed or it's free" policy is quite refreshing.
The workshop is small, and appeared to be only a 2 or 3 man outfit, and he was extremely busy so i'm hoping that points to a high level of customer satisfaction.

I'm not sure about the coils.
I haven't got the car back yet, i'm expecting to get a call tomorrow and I plan to take in one of the boxes that the new coils came in and get the mechanics opinion. He seems to know what he's talking about and apparently has over 30 years experience with french stuff so we'll see what he says.

Ben

Wow! It's a wonder he had time to look at your car - with a policy like that, I'd have thought there'd be a queue out the door, and a very long waiting list!!

On the subject of my strainer blockage, it almost certainly would have been caused by using ethanol fuel. I use it most of the time in the Xantia without any other side effects.

Cheers and best of luck this time

Alec

PS What are you going to do about your coils? Presumably safest thing is to refit the ones you took out (after checking for the special resistor) and put the new ones back on eBay?

 

[Captain Slow]

Well, it's fixed!
What a relief let me tell you.

It wasn't all smooth sailing though. The mechanics diagnosis was spot on, but the fix was problematic as someone had previously been in the fuel tank and had tightened the sealing ring too tight and buggered all the plastic threads.

It nearly came to a replacement tank, but some careful use of a heat gun got the new ring on and seated properly.

So now that I can drive the thing properly, i'm not impressed with the indecisive nature of the gearbox. I don't think it's a fault, just bad shift programming. I know they had a few software upgrades over time so it's worth seeing if it has the latest updates.

Other than that i'm quite happy.
I found what was causing the knocking in the rear on right hand corners too. The rear most exhaust hanger is hitting the end of the tow bar mount. I'll figure out a fix in the near future but for now it's not a huge problem.

So I just wanted to say THANK YOU to everyone who took the time to try to help me with my problems, I most definitely appreciated it.

And to anyone in the Wollongong area I highly recommend Paul Andrews Auto repairs, Ralph Black Drive, North Wollongong. Had I heard about him sooner I could have saved well over $1000 by not replacing non faulty parts


Live and learn as they say.

Thanks again
Ben

PS, just jumping back to a previous post regarding counterfeit coils, Paul said that regardless of if they come in a genuine box, as long as they have delphi cast into the plastic body they should be genuine. Just FYI

 

[kiamaian]

Citroen C5 V6 fixed at last

I have followed this thread with interest and I have felt your pain when things didn't work out. I am pleased that you finally got your car fixed and you deserve some good luck from now on.

Most of my life I have bought second hand cars because that is all that I thought I could afford. In most instances when you buy a used car there are things to be fixed and provided they are done properly you can have long trouble free periods of use. Of course when you spend substantial amounts of money on repairs you need to keep the vehicle for a long period of time to get value for your money.

 

[Armidillo]

Well, it's fixed!
What a relief let me tell you.

It wasn't all smooth sailing though. The mechanics diagnosis was spot on, but the fix was problematic as someone had previously been in the fuel tank and had tightened the sealing ring too tight and buggered all the plastic threads.

It nearly came to a replacement tank, but some careful use of a heat gun got the new ring on and seated properly.

...

/QUOTE]


Hmmm!! This sounds very similar to the state of my son's Series II Xantia. Sooner or later we will have to get into that tank. Can the heat gun help get the sealing ring off? Or did Paul just destroy the old one?

Regardless, very pleased to hear that there was a (relatively) simple fix. I think that helps redeem the reputation of the V6 (which I expect is also found in Pug 406s and 407s - heck maybe even in the 607!!)

Cheers

Alec

 

[Captain Slow]

From what he told me he has the "special" tool to remove the ring.
He tried to get the old ring back on but the threads on the tank (and i'm assuming the ring too) were pretty bad.
So he bought a new ring then heated up the threads on the tank, after removing all the fuel, until it was soft.
Then without the pump assembly installed he screwed the new ring into it's fully seated position and let it all cool down thereby sort of re-aligning all the mangled threads on the tank to the good ones on the ring.

Once cooled he undid the ring, fitted the pump assembly, and got the ring back on asap.

Apparently when the ring is over tightened it distorts the fuel tank opening and then doesn't seal. He asked me if I had ever filled it because there would have been fuel slopping out all over the place!

I hope that helps you with your situation.

Ben

Well, it's fixed!
What a relief let me tell you.

It wasn't all smooth sailing though. The mechanics diagnosis was spot on, but the fix was problematic as someone had previously been in the fuel tank and had tightened the sealing ring too tight and buggered all the plastic threads.

It nearly came to a replacement tank, but some careful use of a heat gun got the new ring on and seated properly.

...

/QUOTE]


Hmmm!! This sounds very similar to the state of my son's Series II Xantia. Sooner or later we will have to get into that tank. Can the heat gun help get the sealing ring off? Or did Paul just destroy the old one?

Regardless, very pleased to hear that there was a (relatively) simple fix. I think that helps redeem the reputation of the V6 (which I expect is also found in Pug 406s and 407s - heck maybe even in the 607!!)

Cheers

Alec

 

[Captain Slow]

Well at this stage with the cars purchase price and repair costs I think i'm probably around the retail value of the car hopefully so if/when I need to move on it shouldn't hurt too much. I suppose the good thing is these cars are worth so little right now that they can't depreciate too much more lol

Ben

I have followed this thread with interest and I have felt your pain when things didn't work out. I am pleased that you finally got your car fixed and you deserve some good luck from now on.

Most of my life I have bought second hand cars because that is all that I thought I could afford. In most instances when you buy a used car there are things to be fixed and provided they are done properly you can have long trouble free periods of use. Of course when you spend substantial amounts of money on repairs you need to keep the vehicle for a long period of time to get value for your money.

 

[Captain Slow]

Just a quick follow up,

The car just completed a trip to Melbourne and back (around 1700klms) and performed quite well.
Fuel economy is quite good for a V6 car I think averaging 8.6 L/100km on the way down and slightly more on the way back but it was loaded up with car parts so it's understandable.

My only gripe which i've mentioned before is the automatic shift pattern doesn't seem right. If I drive it in tip-tronic mode or whatever you want to call it it's fine, so i'm hoping just a software update will help.

Otherwise it's going very well, and with the back seats folded down the back swallows up an amazing amount of stuff!

Ben

 

[Armidillo]

Great relief! A lot of the work done before you hit on the real problem would have been good preventative maintenance anyway .

The fuel economy is about what I can achieve in my Pug 605 (PRV V6 with 4-speed auto) in ideal circumstances - sticking to 100 km/h along the (fairly flat) Newell Highway, with a bit of a tailwind .

Cheers

Alec