C5 V6, Bad oil leak around timing cover area, Seeking Advice

hahaha. I'll take that under advisement.

What I can't understand though is why a pair of stuffed cats are causing all the cars weird problems like stalling, dying on hills, dying on flats, will only accelerate on very light throttle, strange gear changes etc etc.

Unless of course they are just blocked which might be the case. But the car will rev fine, and will accelerate fine in 1st gear sometimes.

I had a AU falcon not long ago with a blocked cat and it didn't behave at all like the C5 does. It basically would drive normally up to about 3500 rpm where it would hit a wall and run out of puff. Where as the C5 cuts out and loses all power so the only way I can explain it's behavior is like this:
The ecu detects the cats are stuffed/blocked whatever using readings from the O2 sensors, and then shuts the throttle or kills the injectors etc. it does not feel to me like simply blocked cats. (however I could be wrong of course)

I'm picking the car up tomorrow anyway so i'll try to get a more detailed explanation.

Cheers
Ben

pugwash said:
Id be putting both the little cats in a hessian bag and throwing them in the canal ,dont tell anyone .pugs
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Hey all,

Well the man at Citroen said his boys were 100% sure it is the cats causing all my problems.
He said they are not blocked, just that they are not working ie the sensor after the cats is reading the same as the one before that cats and that is what's causing all the problems.

So using that information, logic tells me that a short term diy fix of punching the cat substrate out wont help as then the sensors will definitely be reading the same and i'll be in the same boat as I am now.
If it was any other car I would be suspicious but i've never had a car with as much sensory doo-dads and electronic trickery as the c5 so it may be actually true.

I've sourced the two aftermarket replacement sections with cats from the UK for about $550 delivered so I guess that's the next step.

I'm sure everyone is riveted to their seats following all this hi octane action so i'll keep you all updated ;)

Ben
 
Captain Slow said:
Hey all,

Well the man at Citroen said his boys were 100% sure it is the cats causing all my problems.
He said they are not blocked, just that they are not working ie the sensor after the cats is reading the same as the one before that cats and that is what's causing all the problems.

Hi
I have just seen this thread.
Can I suggest that you go to the 406 Coupe Club Forum to check some of the faults you have discussed here.
The ageing precat faults are very common with this engine and are nearly always caused by faulty ignition coils. Apart from misfires etc it does not burn all the available fuel and the over rich mixture ends up in the cats which triggers the precat fault.
So using that information, logic tells me that a short term diy fix of punching the cat substrate out wont help as then the sensors will definitely be reading the same and i'll be in the same boat as I am now.
If it was any other car I would be suspicious but i've never had a car with as much sensory doo-dads and electronic trickery as the c5 so it may be actually true.

I've sourced the two aftermarket replacement sections with cats from the UK for about $550 delivered so I guess that's the next step.

I'm sure everyone is riveted to their seats following all this hi octane action so i'll keep you all updated ;)

Ben
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Hi
I have just seen this thread.
Can I suggest that you go to the 406 Coupe Club Forum to check some of the faults you have discussed here.
The ageing precat faults are very common with this engine and are nearly always caused by faulty ignition coils. Apart from misfires etc it does not burn all the available fuel and the over rich mixture ends up in the cats which triggers the precat fault. Removing the precats will create a permanent fault as the ECU is monitoring the upstream oxygen sensor and comparing its output with the downstream oxy sensor to determine fueling requirements and to gauge the condition of the cat.
Change the coils and see what happens. The UK lads say that the Citroen Delphi coils are the ones to go for. The Sagem (original) are rubbish as are the cheap aftermarket ones. I bought a set of 6 for around $300 ex UK.
The shake under heavy load may just be a misfire but also could be the DMF getting a bit loose.
 
i have had a little experience with these coils ,i found they can be fine when cold then break down when they have wormed up,did a bit of swapping around with a few that were supposed to be good ,put it on a scanner which said it was no 5 center at the back from memory ,you could try repLacing the rear only[if your strapped for cash ] then use the best of the rest in the fronts ,there a lot easier to get to, although the rears are not to bad once you have worked out how to remove the plenum,i cant work out why the ecu wouldnt have picked this up ,me things that over fueling could create the same problem, dodgy injectors leaking down or not spraying properly ,which brings me to rail pressure, all of which the ecu should have covered ,if its getting the right information PUGS
 
Well....

After Corben Citroen here in Wollongong was certain that it was both pre cats causing my problems, i've gone and replaced both of them with new items from the UK at a cost of $600 delivered.

What a PITA job that was. Engine sub frame completely off along with a bunch of other things. I did the front lower rear suspension arm bushes while I was there too.

The after market pre cats were not a great fit either but got there in the end with some bracketry modifications.

End result, no real change. Still virtually undrivable. Anything over very gentle throttle causes engine to cut power and stumble back to idle. It's also throwing Automatic transmission fault and ESP/ABS faults when you try to floor it.

After the last few reply's i'm going to try replacing the coils.

Could bad O2's cause anything like i'm experiencing?
I'm assuming their operation can be checked by Lexia software?

Frustrating to say the least!

Ben
 
The original coils are such a well known & constant problem that I am surprised you haven't taken the advice offered earlier here & replaced them with reliable Delphi coils.
 
At the time I did not believe the problem to be the coils and I had already ordered the cats on dealer advice so I was, and am, trying one thing at a time.
The way it was acting previous to it's current rather dire state did not say "bad coils" to me.
Now though it's a definite possibility. I'll still be surprised if they turn out to be the cause of everything though!

I was in no way ignoring the advice of those helpful people, as I said, I had already forked out a chuck of change and wanted to see the results (or lack there of) before spending more. If I was Mr moneybags I wouldn't hesitate to just replace everything, but i'm not, and I don't like that ethos anyway, I like to know exactly what the problem is and not waste money that I could be wasting on something else lol.


Also I tend to work at my own speed, with many projects going on sometimes it takes weeks or months to make progress.

Again, thank you to all those that have contributed, your advice and comments are very much appreciated.

Coil packs are next on the list, i'll let you all know how it goes :)

Ben
 
PS, I've had a quick look around at new coils. I've found a few places int he UK starting around 25 Pounds, but they don't specify what brand they are.
Does anyone have a source for Delphi coils they could please share?

Cheers
Ben
 
Ben, a quick read of the French websites implies that Pug/Cit part 5970.94 is in fact the Delphi coil.

Taken with a grain of salt, as a few are recycling what is posted on others. (Amazing! It even happens in other languages...)
 
You want the genuine Delphi OEM or PSA boxed part under part# 5970.94.
Looking only at eBay ... Neat Car Parts (who are OK) list both genuine and non-genuine items:
5970.94 >> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/IGNITION...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4d05a145d0
Alternate >> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/IGNITION...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4d077630c5
The alternative item looks like the Sagem coil to me.

You want to change at least the rear three as a set and you will also want to consider changing the seal for the manifold. The front coils are simple to change. Keep any known good coils in the boot as spares.

Did you ask the dealer to check that the software for the engine and gearbox were the latest versions? They probably are by now, but worth checking.
 
Hey everyone,

Well the new coil packs arrived today.
I purchased them from the above link.
It is Kens Auto Spares Ltd in the UK, trading on ebay as Doctor_Car

I bought and paid, then it took about 3 days to get postage notification, then a further 7 days in transit.

I had no direct contact with the seller, but am happy with the service.

Total price delivered was $330ish

I'm about to go and fit the front 3 and see if that makes any difference.

Fingers crossed.

Ben
 
Another update,

Fitted all coil packs last weekend and no real change unfortunately.

I'm not sure where my next step should be. Maybe O2 sensors, but I believe they are something that can be checked via computer to see if they are working.

Another weird thing is i've noticed that the car has 215-55/16's on 3 wheels and a 205 something on one side on the back.
I vaguely recall reading something months ago about possible problems being caused by miss matched tyres or uneven tyre wear.

Anybody have any info to add there?
It pretty much needs new tyres all round anyway so I might get those regardless. I'd be quite annoyed if it turned out to be just a tyre problem after all this lol

Is the 215-55/R16 the standard size?

Regards
Ben
 
PS, also meant to say that I discovered that the coil packs I replaced were all Delphi ones, so they are probably all good. Annoying that I had to spend hundreds of dollars to find that out, but it's one more potential problem off the list at least.

Ben
 
The mismatched tyre problem can be a trap indeed. There's obviously a little leeway, but it can confuse the ABS system, which can then result in a downgrade mode for the rest of the car, with numerous faults that look like other root problems. It has to do with different rolling diameters, so calculate whether there is much of a difference for your tyres when new and then adjust for the wear. Or just change the lot. Bridgestone Turanza's might be worth considering. Note the 93 load rating for the V6, which is higher than for the 4 cylinder cars.

You can always onsell any bits you do not need. What about the rear bank coils? The Sagem and Delphi coils look quite different, so it should be possible to determine without removing them.
 
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Initially due to being a straight forward job I changed the front 3 and checked for improvment. then a few days after I changed the back 3 also. All the front and rear were already Delphi.

Using a tyre calculator i've worked out the difference in diameter of my rear tyres (when new anyway) which is 1.1cm so quite substantial, more than any normal wear difference would be at any rate.

So I will replace tyres and report back

Thanks guys
Ben

David S said:
The mismatched tyre problem can be a trap indeed. There's obviously a little leeway, but it can confuse the ABS system, which can then result in a downgrade mode for the rest of the car, with numerous faults that look like other root problems. It has to do with different rolling diameters, so calculate whether there is much of a difference for your tyres when new and then adjust for the wear. Or just change the lot. Bridgestone Turanza's might be worth considering. Note the 93 load rating for the V6, which is higher than for the 4 cylinder cars.

You can always onsell any bits you do not need. What about the rear bank coils? The Sagem and Delphi coils look quite different, so it should be possible to determine without removing them.
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A friend had a new Alfa recently which constantly went into limp mode - lots of strange problems etc. Dealer replaced 'everything' and had the car at different times, for weeks. Turns out the factory had put a different size tyre on at the passenger front. This apparently sends the computer haywire as the car is constantly trying to correct.
Will be interesting to see if your problem is related.
 
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