C5 V6, Bad oil leak around timing cover area, Seeking Advice

C

Captain Slow

Member
Fellow Frogger
Joined
Nov 1, 2010
Messages
139
Location
Wollongong, NSW
Hello folks,

I thought it's about time I introduced myself, unfortunately it comes with a problem.
My name is Ben and i'm located near Wollongong NSW
I've been lurking around Aussie Frogs for a few years now gathering intelligence for the day that something Citroen shaped parks itself in my driveway :D

I've been on the look out for the right CX or BX for the last few years, but on almost a whim I purchased a 2003 C5 V6 a few days ago as I believe the price was very good.

Unfortunately on the way home I was stopped at a set of lights and I noticed some smoke coming out from under the front of the car.
I pulled over to take a look and the bottom of the engine and sub frame was drenched in oil, some of which was on the exhaust causing the smoke. I think the leak was just an unfortunate co-incidence for me, as the car had just passed a blue slip the day before and I would think that surely it would have been noticed had it been pre existing.

I checked the oil level and it had hardly gone down, I think the leak looks much worse than it actually is, but it's still fairly major. Anyway, I made it home ok, de-greased everything, then went for a short drive to try to determine where it's coming from.

It appears to be coming from the lower timing cover/crank pulley area. Which I suppose could be crank seal or cam seals.
Oil is also getting up higher on the manifold heat shield near the firewall, and on the exhaust near the rear oxygen sensor. I'm not sure how it's getting up there if it's leaking under the timing covers though.

I'm thinking of having a crack at doing the crank and cam seals myself, but i'd hate to get it all apart to find it's coming from somewhere else. However if anyone knows of a guide/tutorial etc to do the job that would be greatly appreciated. I've read it can be done using some bolts as timing pins, but i'm not sure what else might be required. I'm pretty decent mechanically, but having never worked on one of these before i'm a bit hesitant to go diving in.

Are there any other likely places it could be coming from?

I apologize for the lengthy post, but too much info is usually better than to little.

Again, any info or advice will be greatly appreciated :D

Regards
Ben

PS, just thought id add, other than the above problem, the car was brilliant to drive!
 
Are you sure it's engine oil and not hydraulic fluid / LDS? Check the state of the hydraulic hoses that run up from the pump in the right front corner, around the strut and down to the third sphere on the subframe. They often leak at the rubber sections near the firewall. The power steering pipes are also prone to leak and it shares the LDS reservoir. To roughly check the LDS level, remove the cover (RHS - lift the centre out of the securing plugs, then remove the plugs.), set the suspension to low and see if it's approximately at the seam in the reservoir. Don't overfill it. The brakes use DOT4, but the suspension and steering use the same LDS reservoir.

The V6 engine usually leaks oil from the sump and the cam covers. If it's from the front crank seal, then it would be behind the timing belt and the belt is probably oil affected by now.
 
The guys at Pirtek at Unanderra are great and will remake hoses for Citroens without casting aspersions on your or the car's ancestory.
 
give it a real good de grease

then you should be able to see where the oil is coming from ,rocker covers are a common problem ,if the oil is getting on the exhaust manifold its probably leaking on the drivers side rear corner then getting blown about on the right hand side of the engine ,the inlet plenum [manifold ] is not that difficult to remove ,you just undoo all the bolts ,lift it up at the front then slide it to the left ,from memory ,it pivots on a couple of pins at the back ,just make sure theres nothing loose or floating about that could fall down the inlet ,stick some rag in the inlets while you check out the rocker cover ,run your fingers along the back of the head below the rocker gasket to see if its leaking ,the seal is part of the cover, but can be assisted by a light cover of silicon gasket sealer , worked a treat on mine when we got ours if you opened the bonnet with the engine running there was oil smoke everywhere ,just be spareing with the sealer ,PUGS
 
Thanks for the replies guys.

The first thing I did was de-grease the crap out of it underneath so I could try to properly determine where it's coming from.
I checked the hydraulic lines today and apart from a very slight damp spot on one power steering line crimped join they appear ok so i'm pretty sure it's engine oil.

I've got it booked in to Peter Mcloud at Unanderra on monday so they can take a look and give me some advice.
If they quote me a repair price that is at all reasonable then i'll just get them to do the job. I don't like paying for something that I could comfortably do 95% of though, but I don't need the headache right now. If the quote is ridiculous though, then I think I can manage the job myself.

Does anyone have a ball park idea what a timing belt job + seals might cost?
I'm assuming I should probably do the water pump, belt tensioner etc also?

I was told all the gaskets, seals and belts etc were done less than a year ago, but the accessory belt doesn't look anything like new so I'm not sure I should believe that anything at all was done.

Thanks again everyone :)
Ben
 
When the VVT solenoids leak they run down the back of the timing covers down to the crank creating the illusion of a cam/crank seal leak. VVT solenoids can leak from the seal at the base, from the case crimps and from the connector. Have a good look at these, they will have green connectors they are on the timing side of the motor 1 front, 1 rear. You will need to remove the engine cover to view them. Other common leaks are the cam boxes (which will explain the smoke), rocker covers and sump.
 
For what's probably involved (at least partially), check out this thread:

ES9J4 engine

Engine removal may not be strictly necessary, though :)
 
Hey everyone,

Well I had a look for the VCT solenoid without much luck. I got it over to City Auto Care at Unanderra today anyway so they could take a look. The mechanic (who was very friendly and helpful btw) concluded that it was most likely the crank seal, and estimated around $400 - 500, plus parts to repair.

I thought this was quite reasonable, so i've left it with him and should have it back next week.

Thanks again everyone for your advice, I appreciate it.

Ben

PS, there was about 5 or 6 SM's in the work shop. I think i'm in love lol.
 
Well, the leak appears to be fixed. It ended up being a cam seal wasn't installed properly at the last major service earlier this year. And also the rear cam cover was leaking too, probably from the same service. I was told this car was only dealer serviced but I can't see a dealer being this incompetent.

Anyway it's fixed now which it the main thing, even though it ended up costing a lot more than first quoted.

The car still has the problem of the engine cutting off randomly accompanied by the service and STOP lights appearing on the dash . It re-starts fine after that but I will take it to have any error codes read this week hopefully.

I've read it could be the crank position sensor. Does anyone know i they are difficult to replace?
And also any recommended places to purchase C5 parts, either domestically or internationally?

Regards
Ben
 
Does the car die completely, or just stumble heavily?

The fault log accessed with a Lexia will show any stored data which would include "Intermittent fault - Engine speed sensor" or something like that if there is a fault with the CAS. However it's highly unlikely.

Does the cooling fan behave normally, and has the engine operating temperature remained stable?

I buy parts from EAI and overseas from several sources, depending on the item in question. Ebay UK is often good for common items the dealers here want to rob you on. There is also a French Citroën dealer (Accessoires Citroën Lorient, in Caudan) who is happy to post pieces, but it's an automated website so you need part numbers.

My observation of dealer service is, they're quite capable of mucking things up. Owning a selection of French cars forced me to improve my French (to save money on parts) and gave a solid kick in the rear to sharpen my workshop skills.
 
Hey,

About half of the time the engine just turns off, and the other half you loose all power for a few seconds, but then it comes back.

I've only done less than 200 klms in the car since buying it, and the above fault has occurred about half a dozen times.
Temps seem ok as far as i've noticed.

Regarding fan noise, I've not noticed anything out of the ordinary whist driving it myself, but the other day I was out on the drive way when my wife came home and the fan noise seemed quite loud when she shut the car off, but I've no idea yet on what is "normal" for these vehicles.
Why do you ask about fan operation?

Regards
Ben
 
A fan motor that's sticky can create a temporary short that's enough to make the engine stumble. Because it's "upstream" of the ECUs, it doesn't log a specific fault usually - just generates a string of phantom faults as sensors temporarily fall outside their reference voltage range.
 
Ahh ok then

Well I had it hooked up to Lexia today and it showed up a whole range of various faults.
The more important ones were that the gearbox was getting intermittent bad data from an engine speed sensor or something to that effect, which could explain why the gearbox behaves strangely some times, like wanting to hold gears longer than it should etc.
Also there was an intermittent cylinder 1 misfire, some sort of permanent aerial fault with the radio, intermittent tacho incorrect fault, same with the speedo, and faults with all 4 tyre pressure monitors (probably missing). ohh and a fault with the outside air temp probe.
There was several other lesser faults but unfortunately I've forgotten them.

They were all cleared, and I was instructed to bring it back if/when the engine cuts out again and he'll do another check.
Who knows how long some of them have been there. He did say you can get a lot of phantom faults logged, and once cleared they often don't re-appear.

We shall see :)

Annoyingly the more I drive the car i'm noticing more and more problems like a front end/steering shake under heavy throttle, a knock/rattle in the back end when enthusiastically turning right, and when setting the air con fan speed at anything over half way there is a quiet but very annoying whistle in the dash.

I'm definitely starting to think this car was not quite the bargain I first thought, but i'll persevere for now to try to bring it back to the state it should be in.

Thanks again to all who have offered advice!

Regards
Ben
 
The steering angle sensor and aerial faults come free with every multiplex Citroën.

Your front end shimmy will almost certainly be worn lower arm bushes, although many live in denial...
 
haha fair enough.

The guy did say today that he is yet to see a C5 without an aerial fault lol.

Are the bushes easily fitted or press fitted?
And can you recommend a source to purchase them from?

Cheers
Ben
 
Some faults are phantoms, yes, but the trick is knowing which ones to ignore. Radio aerial fault is possibly the amp in the aerial base, but see if your AM reception is OK before worrying. The signal faults could be due to bad conections if the car has been fiddled with and some pins in sockets have been opened slightly too much by probing. If the tyre sensor faults return, you can have the system turned off and save yourself the expense.

Looking in the boot for anything loose to make a knock going around a corner. More common than you think!

The lower arm bushes are not especially expensive and quite easy to change, but you need a press, so it's not a dead easy DIY job. There are plenty on offer via eBay, but try to get genuine parts as they will be of a known quality. Call dealers, Dapco or EAI, but you need to put the VIN into the parts system to get the right part numbers. There are actually three bushes per side, but the rear bush and the larger of the two at the front are the ones usually replaced. If they are soggy or torn, the car will still drive reasonably at modest speeds, but tend to wander at higher speeds and may pull one way when braking. They are easily inspected. Another cause of front end walking.shudder is the engine mounts, so look for a snapped stud in the two main mounts and torn or soggy rubber in the stabiliser mounts.

A failed ignition coil will also make the car shudder. Replace the rear bank as a set of 3 as they are harder to get at and pick Delphi coils over the original Sagem type. Keep any known good coils as spares in the boot.
 
David, thank you for your suggestions.

The tyre pressure sensor error was permanent and could not be cleared, so i'm assuming the sensors were removed at some point.

Re: rear knocking, I'll check in the boot, but since we've had the car for such a short time I haven't actually put anything in there yet. Still I guess it could be something in the spare wheel well banging around.

I've recently bought a hydraulic press, so i'll check out those places you recommended for bushes and put the job on the very long "to-do" list.

As a futher update, my wife needed to take the car today on a 500 klm trip up the coast. Lets just say the experience was less than smooth sailing. She said the engine died around 8 times on the trip, several of which was whilst in Sydney traffic which was somewhat concerning!

She had about 60 klms to go of the trip when the car appeared to go into limp home mode and showed up an automatic gearbox warning. Apparently if very gentle on the throttle she could get it up to around 70 kph, but any more pedal pressure and it would just stutter and stumble, but not stall.

Does this sound like limp mode behavior?

After a few klms she pulled over and shut the car off for 10 mins, then fired it up again. After that it was fine all the way to her destination.

Another thing, my wife commented that she thought the car needed another gear. Given that the auto box is intermittently not shifting properly i'm thinking perhaps the torque converter was not locking up.

I won't be able to do anything more until she gets back in a week (fingers crossed she actually makes it), but heres a theory that seems like it could hold water. (well in my limited C5 experience anyway)

One of the faults read the other day was something to do with an engine speed sensor, and if I recall correctly something along the lines of it providing the Automatic ECU with bad information, hence it's shifting woes. So it seems plausible that all these more serious problems could be traced back to one sensor?

And if so, what specific sensor might this be? Does the ECU get it's RPM data from the crank sensor?

Apologies for the lengthy post :D
And again, I very much appreciate every ones input

Regards
Ben
 
There's an output speed sensor in the autobox, used for assorted control and analysis aspects of the transmission ECU.
 
C5 v6

QUOTE=addo;1106556]There's an output speed sensor in the autobox, used for assorted control and analysis aspects of the transmission ECU.[/QUOTE]

Ben, I would love to ask what you paid for the car, but you seem to have manners, and believe it or not, so do I!!

The C5 V6 is a waste of space, and unless you got the car for under three grand, you have gotten the raw end of soneone's problematic Amex stick.

Mine was a dud, and doing similar things to what you describe. You get one thing soughted, and another problem comes out of the blue. When I had that car, my 2cv got more use, as it was by far the more reliable.

My advice is to take to a dealer, get diagnosed, and expect a bill to fix of some thousands. Tell them you paid little for the car and see if they will look after you. Then to be really brazen, sell it.

I got mine years ago and paid 20 grand with 55ks. One owner and full Alto Newcastle log books. It was mint when I got it through a Sydney dealer.

Being a Citroen man, I expected some repairs, and had the old anti pollution come on numerous times, had the oil leak from suspension pipe and did the Pirtek fix as Craig suggests, had the sump done, had the oil drip on manifold and made me think it was on fire......the works. I did fix and fix, then it got too much after $8500 on Amex, I realized I was being stupid and the car was a dud. I tried selling, and the market then was a shocker, and I desperately decided to trade. Lined up the deal, and after 20 grand purchase price, 12 months later all I could get as a trade was 9 grand, with 75ks on clock and $8500 spent. So I put on net and docked price until it went above the trade price offered. Came out above trade price, but loss in 12 months was $8500, $7000 on the car itself, an insurance hail claim of $600, and a rego.

The design is such that parts need to be be removed from engine to access other bits. The blow coils and trap heat big time.

My advice is not positive sorry. Flog it before you blow more dough. Each time I see one, I don't think of the smoothness and lovely crushing, but the scrubbing of front tyes, machining of discs, leaking oil, coils, heat, smoke, Anti pollution, pipes leaking, and tow trucks. Since parting with it, my bank balance has been much better. I notice they sell for very little, and have seen as low as $1300 with no damage and seemingly tidy.

The four and HDi are much better prospects.

Chris Mortimer
 
Ben actually I have had another more practical idea. And it is based on dollars again, sorry!!! Refinance the car of you are stuck with it, and buy the most almighty warranty you can get your hands on. I recently sold my wife's C4 and the purchaser used Aussie Car loans I think based in QLD, and they were able to supply a warranty. That might take the burden off the C5. That is if you can refinance it. Buying a straight out warranty may be tricky at this point without knowing the cars particulars. It is easy to say drive off a cliff, but that ain't reality.

Having just got a new Megane DCi, I can honestly say the French do certain things very well and some things in a complicated, confusing way. Eg a C4 hheadlamp globe replacement is like brain surgery, the Megane's Bluetooth is like the Gamsat medical exam, making work, and I can't wait to change a headlamp lobe on it.....

Good luckwith the C5 V6.

Chris M
 
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