Wanted- ds23 bare chassis

Hi,
It looks very poor in the photos, strange that the A and B pillars have lost their paint and are covered in surface rust. Did it live beside(in) the sea at some stage?
Try to sell it as one lot and move on would be my tuppence worth!

Cheers,
Ed


Sent from my iPhone using aussiefrogs
 
To tear apart the Canberra carsales advertised LHD D to make up a 23 seems highly illogical captain. The 23 needs a huge amount of work but bringing into the equation a decent car ro dismantle and rebuild it into another spec equals massive headache I would have thought. And I did!

Someone with a 23 could use yours as a potential parts car, especially engine and gear box.
 
Many years a go I had a lovely, re-trimmed DS23 Pallas.... (new interior, excellent paint, etc)
but the body (chassis) had a lot of rust.

A Citroen guy had a D Special (from memory) stripped down chassis in good oder.
He swapped the entire car over.

It certainly is do-able, and from memory, the chassis was an early one and the DS23 a 1974.
The earlier chasses are reputedly less prone to rust.
 
earlier ones that I've seen have been very rusty. They rust worst than the later cars IMO ( except the upper boot area and bit lid as they didn't have the sponge seal) That car looks very poor. For the front guards to be rusty across the top, I imagine the rest of them is beyond economical repair (usually "rusty" guards will have rust under the headlights, and in the bottom corners ... early 1st./2nd nose cars will rust around the arch).... those are very, very rusty though. The hull is probably one of the worst ones I've seen (it's similar to a parts car I have here that has broken it's belly). If the doors are rusty in the same way as the front guards. I'd imagine they are beyond economical repair too. Is the bonnet corroded away around the edges where the bonnet panel folds over the frame :confused:

Unless you have serious sentimental attachments to that car, the best money you could spend is parking it in your backyard and treat it as a parts car and learning experience on buying old cars. With a DS you need to take someone that knows how to check them over for rust with you .... Someone that is happy to walk away if they think the car isn't the right car.

seeya,
Shane L.
 
From the look of it, the car is too far gone to be economically salvaged.

What may prove worthwhile is finding a reasonable, early D Special and use the 23 motor.
Not sure about an auto, I'd punt for a manual 5 speed.

Re-trimming a Special or a Pallas doesn't cost a hugely different amount, so you might upgrade the D Special to Pallas trim.
A D Special with a DS23IE motor, a five speed box, and upgraded trim is pretty close to the best spec'd D.
Even as a non-purist hybrid, it would be a fine car.

There have been some reasonable D Specials on the market lately, poor ones around $4/$5k and good ones from $12K up.
 
The difficulty you have with parting this car out is that many of the parts others are looking for are going to be just as bad as the parts they have. You'd have to look for value in hard mechanical items or any clean items of Pallas trim. Being an auto and it using a slightly different engine (I gather is doesn't run) means you have to find an auto owner, someone who knows how to bolt the flywheel to its crank or someone chasing a handy boat anchor. If it was a 5-speed, you'd have an instant $1,500+ for the gearbox alone, but that's not the case for an auto.

It's certainly not impossible. Many really good cars have started out as restoration projects in that condition. Also, this car passed through dogboy a couple of years ago and his photos at the time suggested the car was rusty, but apparently complete and unmolested, which would be quite helpful when seeing it as a project. Whether it's worthwhile depends on inclination, ability and resources. Buying all the panels needed as repro will blow the budget immediately, so a better used shell may be the best option here unless you can buy repro selectively, scrounge some used portions or make up repair sections from sheet. Otherwise, onsell as a complete project and look for a better example more consistent with your circumstances.
 
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Who is dogboy?
How do you know it’s the same car?? It would be great to try and get a little more info on it.
I am told the engine was running but a resto was on the cards and they started taking it apart. Now, this could all be BS but the engine does turn freely and the dizzy spins when cranking so as far as mechanical goes it all still looks connected. The transmission is a borg warner auto, I am told this is a good thing.

I hate to admit to it but I’ve been had. It looked rough but I quickly realised that rust got into everything. The boot was gone and I could see the back parcel shelf looked rough. I popped the back glass and there’s rust, that isn’t a big deal I’m thinking. Let’s move on, lets take the roof off, low and behold rust. It keeps going like that each time I take a panel off or unscrew a bit of chrome.

I have someone interested in the injection system and therefore will probably pull out the whole engine and trans. What is the injection system (ECU, injectors, loom and manifold) worth? What can I hope to get for engine and trans?
The steering system is still good so all the front end can be sold.

I am hoping to recup my investment but things don’t look great. If only Citroen had zinced or rust proofed their cars I wouldn’t be here. Which is a pretty big oversight on their behalf given that all roads in Europe will get salt at some stage, I would know I spent most of my life in France.
 
Barring the injectors themsleves, the injection parts are hard to come by. Given it was a pretty expensive option at the time not many cars had it fitted. ECUs and sensors do crop on ebay.fr and ebay.de prices vary quite a lot so it might be worth having a look there to get an idea, I cant say I've seen many injection parts for sale locally. Selling a complete system is a bit of a rarity.

The complete system is comprised of:Bosh distributor, ECU, Manifold pressure sensor, Full load switch, Temperature sensors x 2, one in block and one in air intake, Injectors x 4, Throttle position sensor, Intake manifold, Throttle body, Throttle cable, Auxiliary air valve, 2 or 3 relays on side of battery tray (depends on year), Wiring loom, Cylinder head and possibly the exhaust manifold

That's just for a manual or auto car. For a BVH some of the gearchange components have unique part numbers for injected cars.
 
I’m all for rare lol.
I have all those parts and can easily sell that as a package though I would probably upgrade the sensors just because of age. What would such a package fetch approximately?
I’ve seen an ECU on ebay.de for 1100 euros (1500 aud) which is a bit of money. I am not looking at making money from this but purely recup most of my investment. So as a package with everything listed would $2000 be too much? Not enough? Should I list it on ebay?
The interested member had had an under bonnet fire and will require some parts but if then without those parts the rest becomes worthless I may have to see if the package as a whole is of interest to him.
 
cocoelguapo said:
I’m all for rare lol.
I have all those parts and can easily sell that as a package though I would probably upgrade the sensors just because of age. What would such a package fetch approximately?
I’ve seen an ECU on ebay.de for 1100 euros (1500 aud) which is a bit of money. I am not looking at making money from this but purely recup most of my investment. So as a package with everything listed would $2000 be too much? Not enough? Should I list it on ebay?
The interested member had had an under bonnet fire and will require some parts but if then without those parts the rest becomes worthless I may have to see if the package as a whole is of interest to him.
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It would make them far more salable if you could get it running. I wouldn't pay much money for untested, unchecked, non-running 40year old injection parts. I'd like the know the MAF sensor works, the fuel regulator works, the injection pump works, the aux-air regulator works, the calculator works etc.....

Realistically if you were to convert a carby car these days, you only really want the inlet stubs and injectors. And fit an aftermarket injection system such as megasquirt.

Certainly a working full injection system sold as a kit should be worth good money. I'd advertise it world wide ( ie: ebay.com so the americans can find it) too. It shouldn't be too heavy, so you could post.

Also.... Advertise a full "turning light" headlight kit. Once again on ebay.com. The turning headlights are very sought after to the seppos. They only got ugly fixed lights.

seeya,
Shane L.
 
If you start parting I've got a mate who wants a bootlid, interior lights and the chrome around the rear reflectors on the rear wings!
 
I'll wade in here also.
I think the reality is these cars are all 40+ years old.
Most cars these days really need total restoration to be up to scratch. Even ones that look good on the outside.
Of course there are exceptional examples that need very little.
Yes they can be tarted up and driven - but really for most cars we are well past the point of "rolling restoration aka fixing them up and just driving them" over a fuller restoration.
Even the chassis paint was starting to go on my cosseted 84k mile DS21 which prompted a full strip and rebuild.
We are also past the point where the collectable versions should be broken up.
They are worth more as a complete, matching numbers car than as parts.
Used parts are not worth anything really as they need restoration - including injection parts. They are mostly buggered now.
A DS23 Injection Auto Pallas with the correct numbers restored would be worth a lot of $ - so in my very humble opinion the car should be kept together. We are now saving cars which were thought to be unrestorable 20 years ago. In 20 years this car will be a good restoration prospect if it's complete.
Deciding not to restore it is a good decision as going down that path requires a large commitment - put it back together as much as you can and pass it on to someone who wants to take it on.
That way even if it is not restored now it will be around in the coming years with a chance of being done in the future.
Cheers,
Mark...:)
 
cocoelguapo said:
Who is dogboy?
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A long-time member of this forum. Has bought and sold a lot of cars over the years.

cocoelguapo said:
How do you know it’s the same car?? It would be great to try and get a little more info on it.
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I'm making that connection because it is the same colour/trim and specification as the car dogboy had for sale here and via eBay and then turned up here:
http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/restoration-projects/120014-citro%EBn-1974-ds-23ie-pallas.html
Compare the visible sun and rust damage to trim and panels and see if you agree it's the same beast. To be clear, I'm only going by what has been shown here and via eBay etc. and I've not ever inspected this car. If it's not the same car, I'd stand corrected, but would be surprised there could be two so similar in such a state.

cocoelguapo said:
I am told the engine was running but a resto was on the cards and they started taking it apart. Now, this could all be BS but the engine does turn freely and the dizzy spins when cranking so as far as mechanical goes it all still looks connected. The transmission is a borg warner auto, I am told this is a good thing.
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The car apparently wasn't running when dogboy had it. That may have been corrected, but at least it turns over. You have to be careful with EFI as one split hose could start a fire and that has been the downfall of a few cars. (If fiddling, use Gates 5/16th EFI hose from Repco.) If it turns out to be mechanically good without the need to spend a lot on it, that's a large potential saving. It is a BW35, which was a very common unit. Opinions will vary, but the 23 autos have had a fairly bad wrap over the years. I do know a former auto owner who had major problems when the car was fairly young and was unable to get the converter off because it had worn a groove in it's support and would not let go. I don't own one, so there are people here who can give a first hand rundown on auto ownership.

p.s. Athough it's a BW35, not all users of that gearbox specified the same fluid. Volvo, for example, said Dexron, but my memory is that Citroen specified the Ford type ATF, which was not friction modified. Check before filling!

cocoelguapo said:
I hate to admit to it but I’ve been had. It looked rough but I quickly realised that rust got into everything. The boot was gone and I could see the back parcel shelf looked rough. I popped the back glass and there’s rust, that isn’t a big deal I’m thinking. Let’s move on, lets take the roof off, low and behold rust. It keeps going like that each time I take a panel off or unscrew a bit of chrome.
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Not necessarily 'had'. Others have paid far more for cars that have hidden severe rust and similar projects have (almost remarkably) changed hands for more. You will probably find more rust if you take off more 'chrome', which is actually all stainless with a couple of exceptions. Considering what people are paying for old Holden rotboxes and thinking about the superior design and engineering standards of the DS, the DS is not especially expensive. The positive here is that it was complete and unmolested when dogboy had it and it looked more like rust had damaged it instead of being driven into the ground. There are quite a few cars that turn up with very odd modifications, bits missing, bad prior restorations jobs, or partial swaps rendering the car a hybrid, all of which can be expensive to put right. This one looks pretty much as built, just very rusty. So see that as a positive.

cocoelguapo said:
I have someone interested in the injection system and therefore will probably pull out the whole engine and trans. What is the injection system (ECU, injectors, loom and manifold) worth? What can I hope to get for engine and trans? The steering system is still good so all the front end can be sold.
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Hard to say what they are worth as it depends on the (unknown) condition and finding a buyer. There are substitute injectors that can be used. The EFI harness is available as a repro item. The aux air valve (LH of block) probably doesn't work, but the convoluted rubber hoses are probably OK even at this age. The distributor is unique to the EFI, but is often replaced by a '123' unit as an upgrade. What is called the 'thermotime switch' that screws into the head towards the back of the head is very expensive to replace, especially considering how little it does. Other parts would only be wanted by someone wanting to fit EFI to a carby car, which is probably a backwards step in reality. The auto is an unknown quantity in a project car, so suitable for rebuild probably. The rack is useful, but not if the pinion leaks. Replacement pinion valves are something like $1,000+, so for someone with a leaking one, a good used item could b an option. Again, you can't test that in a dead car.

cocoelguapo said:
I am hoping to recup my investment but things don’t look great. If only Citroen had zinced or rust proofed their cars I wouldn’t be here. Which is a pretty big oversight on their behalf given that all roads in Europe will get salt at some stage, I would know I spent most of my life in France.
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I think the best chance of recovering your outlay without spending the next year selling off bits to all and sundry is to sell it whole. You can see how they rust here, even without salt on our roads. They were just not well protected from new and you find bare steel inside box sections when you cut them open.
 
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I'm with Mark. Wrecking DS 23 is a bad idea. Practically all parts are available new repro. ( have a look at Der Franzose catalogue, for instance)
I wouldn't bother with used parts for my DS23 injection 5 speed. I sold a nice D Special a couple of years ago. The guy who bought it had a DS 23 carby 5 speed non Pallas partly dismantled sitting in his garage for about 3 years. He didn't have the confidence to get into it. He got the DSpecial for about 33% of the cost to restore his 23. The point is he sold the 23 complete for I think 3 grand 3 days after advertising in Just Cars. He said he had 2 blokes very keen. I bet he could have got more no trouble. Under no circumstances wreck a DS 23 ie
for parts!
 
DoubleChevron said:
It would make them far more salable if you could get it running. I wouldn't pay much money for untested, unchecked, non-running 40year old injection parts. I'd like the know the MAF sensor works, the fuel regulator works, the injection pump works, the aux-air regulator works, the calculator works etc....
....
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You wouldn't ever use the old pump and pressure regulator and maybe not the injectors. The harness is possibly a bit cooked too at this age. You'd be mad not to buy a new regulator for about US$70 as suiting an early 1970's D-Jet Benz from someone like Pelican Parts or FCPEuro. Even see eBay. It superseded from the original ...004 to a ...007 part number. Any generic Bosch pump of one from something like a BX or XM (which are not in-tank pumps) will fit into the mounting inside the RH sill and you then simply replumb the lines to do away with the extra return feeding the pump on the original layout. Injectors from an old car would need cleaning and flow testing regardless, so buying old injectors might just give you more to choose from when trying to make up a decent set. New injectors, say the ...036 items or even the Standard alterantives (ref Blueduck's thread) of the same flowrate, just with a different barb are available quite reasonably. Or you can buy a set of serviced and flow matched used items from a few vendors. Test D-Jet injectors with a 3 volt supply, not 12.
 
That definitely is the one.
Well at least I know it was running a year and a half ago lol.

So there seems to be two ways of thinking. One is to part it out and the other to keep it together. Is there anyone wanting to take on such a project?
 
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