The Talbot Arizona / Peugeot 309

i do know that the production line that made the matra was used to build the renault espace from 84 onwards hence the reason the matra was finished up in 83

i didn't think they were produced elsewhere as everything i have been told about them that was the end of the matra line
 
What I put is what's I thought I read in the book... but to be more informative, and to correct myself:

In 1983, Matra left PSA and became part of Renault, where it was to develop the concept of the trend-setting Espace people-carrier, drawing on experience gained with the front-wheel-drive Rancho estates. The joint Matra-Renault Espace programme was set to continue until 1993, and includes a front-wheel-drive version called the Quadra.
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Which actually means I misread it... production was to continue beyond 1993. The book, however, is a 1992 print, so anything could have happened.
 
Hey,

Thanks Pugrambo and Ray Bell for the info!

Cyas Stalled
 
Ray Bell said:
What I put is what's I thought I read in the book... but to be more informative, and to correct myself:



Which actually means I misread it... production was to continue beyond 1993. The book, however, is a 1992 print, so anything could have happened.
Click to expand...


well that fits in with i was told, thanks for that

so the matra finished in 83 and was used to become the espace from 84 onwards

another point also worth remembering is that the anything made after september of the year becomes the next years model

so with for example the matra finishing in 83 would have meant that sep 83 was the last but if anything made between sep and dec 83 would have then been 84
 
Only in America...

There's nothing there to say that Matra wasn't still produced at all. I don't know if it was or not, that's unclear. When did the Ranchos grind to a halt, for instance? They could have been made until 1990.
 
Googled up this too...

In 1983, Renault and Matra signed the agreement, and the Matra productionline was converted to produce the P18 - better known as the Renault Espace. However, as the Espace production took place on the same factoryline as the Murena (including the hot galvanizing), the Murena production had to stop. Today, the Murena shows its durability well, as very many of the 10.000 cars produced are still around, and being driven regularly - some even still serving as everyday-car. Not bad for a 20 year old sportscar.
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From that you'd have to conclude that the Murena was the last Matra produced, but when? Not 1983, because development would have taken some time. Maybe that's the 1986 connection?

Edit: Another page says Christmas 1983 the last Murena came off the line. So the last Matra was 1983 and was a Murena.
 
It appears the Samba stayed in production until 1986. And if you wanted to get really technical I think Talbot trucks/vans of some sorts may have been in production until the early '90s?

The Samba is an interesting one, mainly the Rallye model as apparently this is quite a bit of fun with a 80hp 1219cc motor and in 1985 a 90hp 1360cc model. But the really interesting one is the Peugeot-Talbot Sport Samba Rallye Group B model with a 1258cc 130hp motor, however I'm not sure how many of these were actually produced.
 
Some Info over TalbotMatraSimca

hello,

i am a french(froggy)car enthusiast from germany and maybe i can help you with some info over these french manufactors.

first, i am sorry about my worst english, but my schooltime is long, long time ago.

the peugeot 104 came out in 1972 (4-door) and was "the answer" of the Simca 1100. in 1976 the 104 gets 5-doors. in 1975 the 104 Z (short version with only 3-doors) came out. in 1976 the Citroën LN and in 1981 the talbot samba came out. so the peugeot was the "original" from these three cars.

the XU-engines (gasoline and diesel) and the gearbox in the 205/309 and the late 305 were constructed by simca, peugeot take them after buying chrysler-europe (simca/matra and the rootes-group in UK) for his own modells.

the talbot arizona/peugeot 309 is a complete simca construction which should replace the simca horizon.

peugeot renamed simca in 1979 to talbot, because the simca-brand has no good image (bad quality and the rust...). in 1986 talbot was closed, because peugeot was in a very critical financial situation. the tagora-production ends earlier in 1983, the samba- and the horizon-production ends in 1986. only in UK peugeot sold the peugeot J-5/citroën C-25 van as a Talbot-Express untill 1996.

in 1983 Matra suddenly stands alone (peugeot say: you(matra) are now an independent company) with the ready constructed "espace" with citröen BX technic inside, this was the second prototype, the first based on Simca 1308 technic. Peugeot couldn´t see a market for this concept and says no. so matra takes a Renault 18 basic and a Renault 21 engine/gearbox and offers this Renault. they took it.... the Matra Rancho ("father" of espace) and the Murena production ends in 1983 (the last modells from the stock sold in 1984/85/86), they have to make place for the espace-production. the first years (84-89) Renault selling the Espace, in germany´s registration document was the Matra Company standing as the producer. this production ends in 2002, at this time the new espace is a complete steel construction and manufacted by Renault. for consideration Matra produced in 2002/03 the Renault Avantime (Espace "Coupe"). After roundabout 10.000 pieces ends this, because the half of the production was on stock. this was the last Matra car. the car production closed for ever. the development and engineering part was sold to the italian pininfarina company....

i hope you understand my (sensless????) stammering and i hope i´m not boring you...

greatings from the other side of earth. good night.
 
Thank you very much...

And especially we appreciate the time and effort it must have taken you to check these facts and to commit them to the English language. You've done well, please don't forget to come back!
 
Matra-Rancho said:
the XU-engines (gasoline and diesel) and the gearbox in the 205/309 and the late 305 were constructed by simca, peugeot take them after buying chrysler-europe (simca/matra and the rootes-group in UK) for his own modells.

the talbot arizona/peugeot 309 is a complete simca construction which should replace the simca horizon.
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As Ray has said, thank you for your informative post.

Just to elaborate though, are you saying the XU motor and the BE gearbox was originally a Simca design? I don't want to sound rude, this is just quite an interesting point to further investigate.

Also, the 309's chassis/suspension is clearly 205 derived, I understand it may have been developed by Simca but the underlying engineering appears to be all Peugeot derived.
 
Louis said:
As Ray has said, thank you for your informative post.

Just to elaborate though, are you saying the XU motor and the BE gearbox was originally a Simca design? I don't want to sound rude, this is just quite an interesting point to further investigate.

Also, the 309's chassis/suspension is clearly 205 derived, I understand it may have been developed by Simca but the underlying engineering appears to be all Peugeot derived.
Click to expand...
I believe BA7 synchro units are the same as for the BE boxes, this would tend to disprove the idea.
I must say though, that the XU engine is unusual for Peugeot in having shim adjustable valves and not having hemispherical combustion chambers.
The TU engine developed by Peugeot from the XU went back to rocker actuated valves.
Graham
 
hi all,

yes, the chassis/suspension is maybe underlying engineered by peugeot, but the reason for this was the "stolen" XU/BE combination from Simca/Talbot. they changed at the same time also the Peugeot 305(P 304 based engine) in 305 Series II(XU/BE combination) with the same chassis/suspension from 205/309. the first car with the XU/BE combination was the Simca/Talbot Horizon, maybe Peugeot´s chassis/suspension was inspired by the Horizon, but this i don´t know precise...

greetings Ernst
 
Unfortunately the English translation makes for some difficult interpretation.

The XUD definitely first appeared in the Horizon but this was in 1982, well after PSA took over Chrsyler Europe.

I really don't think the XU motor or BE gearbox were originally Simca designs but I'd love to read some info on the origins of these.

As far as I am aware the front Strut, rear torsion bar arrangement used in PSA cars is their own design.
 
i was lead to believe that they were pug engines as the simca engines were rattly and had head troubles and this was not wanted by peugeot

also i heard somewhere that simca meant similar car in that they were a similar car to fiat hence sim ca
 
Hi, Sorry to dig this one up, but if you pop along to http://www.rootes-chrysler.co.uk/ then the whole Simca/Talbot/Peugeot story is covered in some detail, together with all the models.

Its an invaluble resource. :)

Quote
The C28 became known as the Talbot Arizona, and the intention was for the car to be produced at Ryton and Poissy, using carry-over engines from the Horizon. However, Talbot sales were continuing to slide, and debate as to whether the car should be marketed as a Talbot or a Peugeot continued into 1985.

The car itself was a wholescale updating of the Horizon concept, incorporating a more organic 1980s shape (and Renault-esque wraparound tailgate glass), new suspension, but continuing with the existing SIMCA engines for the lower models (1118cc and 1294cc).

As it was, by 1985, the end was nigh for the Talbot marque. Peugeot-Talbot in the UK resisted the move to rebadge the Talbot Arizona a Peugeot because they feared it would harm the company's fleet sales. However, the failure of the Talbot marque to gather any real customer loyalty or brand identity meant that it was inevitable that this would be the final outcome...

When the Peugeot 309 (nee Talbot Horizon) was announced in the autumn of 1985, it marked the end of the Talbot Horizon and indeed of the Talbot marque as a viable brand. The Talbot name lived on as late as 1991 but only as a rebadged Peugeot/Citroen/Fiat designed van.
 
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