The Talbot Arizona / Peugeot 309

L

Louis

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Having owned a 309 I've always been interested in its development story. Whilst it is well known that it was in development as the Chrsyler C28 project, to be later named the Talbot Arizona, I am still left slightly curious.

How much of the engineering work was carried out by Simca/Chrsyler people? I know the suspension/chassis is all near identical to the 205 but it is interesting to note that even in the early '90s they still carried the old Simca OHV motors.

Things like the petrol flap opening and cap are unlike other Peugeots of the time. I can't come to the conclusion of whether the Arizona is simply the UK designed body with total Peugeot design of everything else bar Simca engines or the design work was undertaken by Simca/Chrysler people using Peugeot technology.

Also interesting is the original Horizon, from what I've read this wasn't really that bad of a car, at one point even using the PSA 1905cc XUD motor.

Just as an aside, it's interesting to note that even in 1990, 405s, at least English assembled ones had the Talbot T on their windows.

Who knows, maybe I'm the only person interested in the late '70s/early '80s Simca/Chrysler/Talbot-Peugeot era? Either way, a nice excuse to utilise the new forum.
 
the talbot horizon was also rebadged as a pug 104

the talbot name carried on for a little while with the tagora

there is a bloke i keep in contact with that is very heavy into tagoras and is a wealth of information regarding talbots
 
pugrambo said:
the talbot horizon was also rebadged as a pug 104
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Could you elaborate? I thought the 104 was a Peugeot design, considering it was a lot smaller than the Horizon. The Talbot Samba was definitely a rebadged 104.

The Tagora is definitely an interesting story. Just a pity it didn't look that hot. It didn't look bad but in my opinion just lacked slightly. The Peugeot rear suspension didn't quite suit the body and made the rear track look too narrow.

But technically an interesting car with the PRV.
 
Louis said:
Could you elaborate? I thought the 104 was a Peugeot design, considering it was a lot smaller than the Horizon. The Talbot Samba was definitely a rebadged 104.

The Tagora is definitely an interesting story. Just a pity it didn't look that hot. It didn't look bad but in my opinion just lacked slightly. The Peugeot rear suspension didn't quite suit the body and made the rear track look too narrow.

But technically an interesting car with the PRV.
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sorry you are right

the samba became the 104 and the horizon became the 309

the horizon started to inherit the pug motors hence the reason i messed up

the tagora was a great thing and yes it does look strange but the SX was the car to have with it's triple throat webers

another note was that the tagoras whether 4pot or V6 most of them had the BA10 box in them and only a handful of the 4 pots basically had the BA7 box
 
intresting to note that wether or not the design was simca inspired the samba design also went into the LN
 
Looking back on it, the Tagora certainly looked good in 1980 from certain angles especially in SX form.

But catch it in low-spec form from the wrong angle and it doesn't work quite so well.

163hp, would that make it the most powerful carb 2664cc PRV?
 
Louis said:
Having owned a 309 I've always been interested in its development story. Whilst it is well known that it was in development as the Chrsyler C28 project, to be later named the Talbot Arizona, I am still left slightly curious.

How much of the engineering work was carried out by Simca/Chrsyler people? I know the suspension/chassis is all near identical to the 205 but it is interesting to note that even in the early '90s they still carried the old Simca OHV motors.

Things like the petrol flap opening and cap are unlike other Peugeots of the time. I can't come to the conclusion of whether the Arizona is simply the UK designed body with total Peugeot design of everything else bar Simca engines or the design work was undertaken by Simca/Chrysler people using Peugeot technology.

Also interesting is the original Horizon, from what I've read this wasn't really that bad of a car, at one point even using the PSA 1905cc XUD motor.

Just as an aside, it's interesting to note that even in 1990, 405s, at least English assembled ones had the Talbot T on their windows.

Who knows, maybe I'm the only person interested in the late '70s/early '80s Simca/Chrysler/Talbot-Peugeot era? Either way, a nice excuse to utilise the new forum.
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My 205 ownwers handbook lists a J2/K engine (Talbot/Sunbeam/Simca derived?) this is 1592 cc and has more power and torque and better economy than the equivalent Peugeot engines. Any information regarding this?

Graham
 
I don't think that engine was ever an option in the 309.

There was the 1118cc and 1294cc Simca motors in the 309, with the 1294cc developing 64hp, I think it's fair to say these motors were well out of date by 1990. The 1580cc XU5 served in the 309, my SR had this motor.

I see that there was a 1592cc Simca motor, stretched out from the original 1118cc motor. This made 88hp and served in the Alpine. But as far as it being used in the 309 I'm almost positive it didn't.

Odd how it would be listed in the 205 manual as it didn't serve in the 205 either.

We have 309s here that have the 1294cc Simca motor but I've never driven one. To be honest the thought of a 64hp pushrod motor driving the 309 doesn't sound particularly appealing, in my experience the 80hp XU5 suited the 309 very well. But I'm sure the 1294cc wouldn't have been too bad.
 
Louis said:
Looking back on it, the Tagora certainly looked good in 1980 from certain angles especially in SX form.

But catch it in low-spec form from the wrong angle and it doesn't work quite so well.

163hp, would that make it the most powerful carb 2664cc PRV?
Click to expand...


the SX wasn't a bad looking car

you can see little touches of 604 in them

tagora-sx.jpg
 
Louis said:
I don't think that engine was ever an option in the 309.

There was the 1118cc and 1294cc Simca motors in the 309, with the 1294cc developing 64hp, I think it's fair to say these motors were well out of date by 1990. The 1580cc XU5 served in the 309, my SR had this motor.

I see that there was a 1592cc Simca motor, stretched out from the original 1118cc motor. This made 88hp and served in the Alpine. But as far as it being used in the 309 I'm almost positive it didn't.

Odd how it would be listed in the 205 manual as it didn't serve in the 205 either.

We have 309s here that have the 1294cc Simca motor but I've never driven one. To be honest the thought of a 64hp pushrod motor driving the 309 doesn't sound particularly appealing, in my experience the 80hp XU5 suited the 309 very well. But I'm sure the 1294cc wouldn't have been too bad.
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from what i have seen around the place they also commented on how the simca engines used in those cars had rattly valve trains and heads that needed to be retorqued

this type of thing just wasn't accepted by the market and that ended them and the pug motors were used in place starting with the 1.6L

i also saw somewhere mention of a VW unit bieng used as well
 
Hey,

Not knowing much about Talbots, when were they last sold and why did they go out of business?

Thanks heaps!

Cyas Stalled
 
I think it's basically been covered, but to wrap it up... Chrysler sold out to Peugeot, who let the models run down after changing their name to Talbot. I guess the purpose was to keep what brand-loyal buyers there were and swing them gradually to Peugeot.

1986 was the end of it... so it was about an eight year process.
 
also the tagora wasn't marketed as well as the pug as it was in competition with the 604 and the CX at the time

both these cars already filled the spots that PSA had in the market

they also delayed the release of the tagora so they could modify it to use parts from the 604
 
Ray Bell said:
I think it's basically been covered, but to wrap it up... Chrysler sold out to Peugeot, who let the models run down after changing their name to Talbot. I guess the purpose was to keep what brand-loyal buyers there were and swing them gradually to Peugeot.

1986 was the end of it... so it was about an eight year process.
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i know the tagora was stopped in 83

i thought that was the last of the talbots so there was another model that kept going for a couple of years
 
Ray Bell said:
I don't know what model was the last survivor, but the book says the finish was 1986...

The range included Matra, by the way.
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the matra was finished in 83 maybe early 84

pity as it was a nice car

does the book say what was still made up till 86
 
Seems that the fibreglass-bodied Murena (2.2 engine) was marketed up till (perhaps) 1983, then Matra went off under another ownership, becoming part of Renault.

That seems to have stopped production in 1993... finally.

And as you can see from my last post, I have no idea what model stopped last.
 
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